StarDestroyer.Net BBS

Honestly rather disgusting. Will this stop me buying 40K figurines? No. I'll just get them off eBay or Amazon, where retailers *don't* have to pay GW prices, and I suspect a number of non-GW retailers will quietly mark down product down to near-wholesale prices. Sure, that'll kill their own profits, but keeping customers versus losing customers?

Of course, if wholesale prices are fairly close to retail, then this won't do much as far as in the stores go unfortunately...

See, this is why I liked the DOW games so much. I could finally play WH40k without having to take out a second mortgage to pay for the minis. Also, if you think GW is pricey, go look at Forgeworld's prices and then talk to me about expensive. There's a reason why a lot of people say "fuck it' and scratch build their own titans and baneblades.

True Story, me and my friends used to use a paperback book and set a pen ontop to simulate everthing from Predators to Leman Russ'. WH40 is pewter/plastic crack, yo.

I like how most RPG books that advise using figures, even those where the publisher makes the models, often have a section on figures that says "Hey, if you don't have licensed miniatures, who gives a shit! just use grapes or beads or something."
Hell, even some of the minor tabletop games I've read the rules of have a section called "use anything you have lying around, just play our damn game"...
GW doesn't...

Mr. Coffee wrote:See, this is why I liked the DOW games so much. I could finally play WH40k without having to take out a second mortgage to pay for the minis. Also, if you think GW is pricey, go look at Forgeworld's prices and then talk to me about expensive. There's a reason why a lot of people say "fuck it' and scratch build their own titans and baneblades.

True Story, me and my friends used to use a paperback book and set a pen ontop to simulate everthing from Predators to Leman Russ'. WH40 is pewter/plastic crack, yo.

I know someone who's gotten extremely good at scratchbuilding Warhound titans out of basically paper towel rolls, plasticard and various bits. From more than a foot away, you really wouldn't be able to tell they weren't something Forgeworld put out and he did some quality conversion work on to make better.

And at the rate GW's price hikes are going, it won't be more expensive to go to FW for long. Some wags in Oz already figured out it's actually cheaper to order some of the super expensive Forgeworld stuff to get the free regular GW stuff they throw in as a bonus.

barnest2 wrote:I like how most RPG books that advise using figures, even those where the publisher makes the models, often have a section on figures that says "Hey, if you don't have licensed miniatures, who gives a shit! just use grapes or beads or something."
Hell, even some of the minor tabletop games I've read the rules of have a section called "use anything you have lying around, just play our damn game"...
GW doesn't...

It's simple. GW sells models that happen to include a wargame. Other IPs (like Battletech) are a wargame that happens to include minis.

Tanasinn wrote:It's simple. GW sells models that happen to include a wargame. Other IPs (like Battletech) are a wargame that happens to include minis.

To be fair, it shows. GW minis, especially those from the past 5 years or so, are really very high quality. They have minimal defects (in 11+ years of 40k, I've only gotten one bad kit), are extraordinarily detailed, easy to work with (pewter excepted, I'm interested to see the switch to resin too), and are generally great miniatures. My BattleTech set, on the other hand, has miniatures which look worse than most mainstream board game pieces. The Atlas is a slightly larger and marginally bulkier lump of plastic than the Commando!

Stravo wrote:For many hobbyists GW is like Micorsoft, where is are you really going to go?

Um...go somewhere else?

GW has a stranglehold on it's own IP, but that's it - wargaming's a big, wide world. You're hardly starved for choice - go down to your local hobby store, buy a couple of boxes of Revell or Italeri soldiers and use one of the million independent rulesets available on the internet. In my limited experience historical wargaming is way more accessible than GW, not least because the manufacturer doesn't have a monopoly and so rulesets aren't designed around forcing the consumer to pay maximum cash. Given how constantly the people who play it complain the rule system is broken and how overpriced the models are I'm surprised more people don't make the switch.

Think of it as a fattynerd accretion disc.

There are so many fattynerds playing GW that new fattynerds are inexorable drawn in and absorbed.

Plus they have eight foot tall ubermensch with guns. And elf tits.

Take that 1:72 scale Napoleonic Grenadiers and your single free page from the internet ruleset.

Brother-Captain Gaius wrote:

Tanasinn wrote:It's simple. GW sells models that happen to include a wargame. Other IPs (like Battletech) are a wargame that happens to include minis.

To be fair, it shows. GW minis, especially those from the past 5 years or so, are really very high quality. They have minimal defects (in 11+ years of 40k, I've only gotten one bad kit), are extraordinarily detailed, easy to work with (pewter excepted, I'm interested to see the switch to resin too), and are generally great miniatures. My BattleTech set, on the other hand, has miniatures which look worse than most mainstream board game pieces. The Atlas is a slightly larger and marginally bulkier lump of plastic than the Commando!

To be fair, the Battletech minis have been getting much better. So have pretty much all of the other gaming companies out there-look at the quality of the miniatures for Infinity, or Malifaux, or even the minis for Warmahordes nowadays, they're pretty much up there with Games Workshop. Also, it doesn't frigging cost them that much more to higher a reasonably intelligent games designer to write their ruleset and then actually PLAYTEST their game. Me and two other guys could completely rebalance their ruleset and codexes in a three day weekend for a couple grand, booze, and pizza.

I'm just glad I had a friend working for GW when they still did "Weight-cost" over mail order for staff. Took that oppotunity to get the main core of my Fantasy VC army. I'm also lucky in that the army I chose when I started has stayed competative so my costs are spread out over years as I just gradually add a few new stuff each year.

barnest2 wrote:I like how most RPG books that advise using figures, even those where the publisher makes the models, often have a section on figures that says "Hey, if you don't have licensed miniatures, who gives a shit! just use grapes or beads or something."
Hell, even some of the minor tabletop games I've read the rules of have a section called "use anything you have lying around, just play our damn game"...
GW doesn't...

The original Warhammer 40K : Rogue Trader book had this in spades, including detailed (if somewhat unbalanced) rules for making up and points costing your own units and vehicles (based on whatever models you had). Games Workshop was a pretty cool customer friendly company up until sometime in the late 90s, when the business grads took over (what is it we make again? toys for grown ups you say?) and decided to screw every possible penny out of the customer base.

Starglider wrote:

barnest2 wrote:I like how most RPG books that advise using figures, even those where the publisher makes the models, often have a section on figures that says "Hey, if you don't have licensed miniatures, who gives a shit! just use grapes or beads or something."
Hell, even some of the minor tabletop games I've read the rules of have a section called "use anything you have lying around, just play our damn game"...
GW doesn't...

The original Warhammer 40K : Rogue Trader book had this in spades, including detailed (if somewhat unbalanced) rules for making up and points costing your own units and vehicles (based on whatever models you had). Games Workshop was a pretty cool customer friendly company up until sometime in the late 90s, when the business grads took over (what is it we make again? toys for grown ups you say?) and decided to screw every possible penny out of the customer base.

It may not be in the rulebook* but using non-GW stuff is still perfectly viable. IIRC the only thing GW does against it is to bar anyone from using non-GW models from winning painting and modelling awards at their official tournaments, and by that I don't mean a life ban or anything just if at that particular tournament if you have a non-GW model in your army then you can't enter the army into the Best Painted Army category for that tournament. IIRC the official reasoning for that was that they like to print Best Painted Armies in White Dwarf and there'd be legal issues if they put photos of some other companies models in WD without their permission, as well as the unofficial but common sense reason of not wanting to advertise a competing product.
So if you're just playing round a friends, at your local gaming club, at an independant tournament or just about anywhere that isn't an official GW tournament then you're good to use anything. At the South Coast GT for Warhammer this year Maelstrom games even dropped by and had a stall during lunch and I picked up a sweet model from their Banelords range to use as a Wight King as IMO the GW Wight Kings are a bit pants.

*One could argue that it is in their rulebooks to use any models you want as IIRC there's no rule saying you have to use GW models and they allways include a rule called something like "The Most Important Rule" which amounts to 'It's just a game, have fun and don't be a dick'. I bet someone could make a solid argument that TMIR allows you to use anything you like to play the game.

They've been okay with that up to a certain point. Now that the quality of the models put out by independent studios meets, and in many cases, even exceeds that put out by GW themselves, and thanks to the power of the internets, people all over the world can purchase them. Thus all the C&D orders, the lawsuit against Chapterhouse, etc, etc. Especially coupled with GW's insane price increases.

In Australia, guess what's cheaper than a single Predator tank?



My 20cm, fully posable 'Tau Titan'.

This is why GW want people to be unable to avoid regional pricing; their markup in Australia is such that 2-day couriering a much larger model is still cheaper.

Are you kidding 2000AD?

GW comps have always had an "only GW models" rule. Even if you are just playing, not entering the modelling/painting comps.

I've seen people have issues because they'd scratchbuilt an addition, rather than using a purchased model.

I got questioned on my dreadnought when I used it in a GW store once...

My dreadnought is a standard SM dreadnought, but I lost the assault cannon arm. So I built one out of a tau burst cannon and some bits and pieces.
It looked like shit, but it was a good stand in, particularly from a distance.
Of course, when I took it into the store, I had the guys actually question why I was using that instead of the original, and why I didn't buy a new arm mainly because my way was free, and I dont want to spend £5 on a dred arm?

GW rulebooks had a "what you see is what you get"-rule like, forever.
And it pretty much means that the gear your models have must look similar to that in the book. It's very commonly interpreted to mean "GW-models and scratch-builds only".

I always assumed Wysiwyg was in the application of buying upgrades for your unit. I.e. if your SM captain has a plasma pistol, you cant buy him a melta gun...

Particularly not in store....

That -IS- what it means. They want your models to reflect your army build. I guess indirectly this means 'it's gotta look like in the book' so your opponent doesn't have to guess, but it's just a way to sell hyperinflated parts because you have to buy the right bit to have a lascannon on your tank or whatever.

weemadando wrote:Are you kidding 2000AD?

GW comps have always had an "only GW models" rule. Even if you are just playing, not entering the modelling/painting comps.

I've seen people have issues because they'd scratchbuilt an addition, rather than using a purchased model.

Well that must have been relaxed in the past few years at least, given that at one the UK GT heats in 2009 there was a wood elf army consisting of scratchbuilt snowmen of various sizes with various bows and sundry stuck on and one of the placing best painted armies was a Tomb Kings army that was heavily converted and scratchbuilt to a highland pagan theme, the centre piece being a scratchbuilt wickerman to act as a bonegiant.
From my experience they've never had a problem with scratchbuilt models.
In the 6 offical GW tournaments I've been to (3 doubles, 3 GT heats) I've never seen a model taken off for being a none GW model and on top of the whole armies of scratchbuilt stuff mentioned above I've seen plenty of none-GW models, mainly character models that can blend into units but a couple of big monsters too.
Hell, the rules pack for the next round of WFB tournaments (avialable here) doesn't even mention non-GW models, not even in the small print, so it definately looks like any rules against non-GW models are at the very least being relaxed.

Maybe the Aussie tournament refs are a lot harsher than over here in the UK.

Stark wrote:In Australia, guess what's cheaper than a single Predator tank?



My 20cm, fully posable 'Tau Titan'.

This is why GW want people to be unable to avoid regional pricing; their markup in Australia is such that 2-day couriering a much larger model is still cheaper.

Someone should hurry up and make a Gundam Wargaming manual... right Stark?

In the United States, there is no official Games Workshop tournament scene. None. There's the 'championship' in Vegas, and that's it. Everything else is independently organized and ran, and being one of the people largely responsible for organizing the scene here in the Northeast, we're far more flexible than GW would ever allow. Hell, the Northeast circuit allows the Indy GT Chaos Dwarf book to be used, although that may change once the Forgeworld book comes out. Granted, it was written to a very high standard by former GW writers and veteran players, but, still. Very unofficial.

Welcome to news from the nighties. Oh -No GW wants to make a profit.
Which makes it different from all those other gaming companies...
You know what, I've been into gaming since the early eigthies and I can't recall a single gaming company that survived using a friendly business model. Either they went bancrupt or they were taken over by the industry giants which changed the business model instantly.

The only insanity here is the nerdrage. Everyone knows what the GW's business model - model is, and if you don't you're an idiot.

Different prices in different parts of the world + trying to enforce them is SOP for all gaming companies. For computer games that translates to $49 being the same as 49€ for downloads. It makes perfect sense to try to get the maximum price for each market.
Now of course the local shop should try to enforce that you use regulated models in their local tournaments, that is vital to their profit and thus their survival. If everyone would turn up with 3rd party models they would have to close.

So a simple reality check says that their business model is sound, but they could have handled the communication better.

Spoonist wrote:The only insanity here is the nerdrage. Everyone knows what the GW's business model - model is, and if you don't you're an idiot.

It'll be interesting to see what cheap 3D printing does to that. It's coming, ten years and you'll be able to buy a $300 printer that makes any plastic minature you like from cents worth of plastic and scans you downloaded from ThePirateBay (or equivalent). Bad for GW, but good for lots of startups that will base their business plans around this.

Starglider wrote:

Spoonist wrote:The only insanity here is the nerdrage. Everyone knows what the GW's business model - model is, and if you don't you're an idiot.

It'll be interesting to see what cheap 3D printing does to that. It's coming, ten years and you'll be able to buy a $300 printer that makes any plastic minature you like from cents worth of plastic and scans you downloaded from ThePirateBay (or equivalent). Bad for GW, but good for lots of startups that will base their business plans around this.

I've tested one of those. They are amazing. Of course the price tag right now is on the steeper side, but the results was really fantastic.
However you would need a 3D scanner as well if you want to 'copy' an already existing model like GW's, and those are really expensive and somewhat difficult to use. So such a thing would be far into the future.