Man Robs bank for healthcare reasons

[SpaceMarine93]

I don't know, use smearing, expose and other dirty political tricks to remove politicians who might oppose Healthcare, just like what Anthony Weiner did to himself unintentionally? [Don't think its ridiculous, politicians had been doing it for years anyway]

Set up a rival Media corporation, unite all liberal media personalities into it and somehow move its way to become equally massive as Fox News, and use it to sway American masses in favor of Healthcare? [Not really feasible]

Infiltrating Insurance corporations with agents and undermine their operations from within via uncovering corporate crime, becoming part of management and crippling them with deliberate mismanagement, perhaps even smearing them with scandals big enough to undermine people's trusts in insurance companies, all with the goal of weakening their political and economic power? [On second thought, don't, too unrealistic]

Who knows what else we can do. We had to be creative and ruthless, people, the healthcare of the American public depends on it.

[The Romulan Republic]

Here's the thing: you go down that road, and you end up with two factions that are equally ruthless, extremist, and dishonest. That is not a healthy political culture. I would call it a step down the path to civil war.

No, I'm not a big fan of "ends justify the means".

[Metahive]

I don't know, use smearing, expose and other dirty political tricks to remove politicians who might oppose Healthcare, just like what Anthony Weiner did to himself unintentionally? [Don't think its ridiculous, politicians had been doing it for years anyway]

Set up a rival Media corporation, unite all liberal media personalities into it and somehow move its way to become equally massive as Fox News, and use it to sway American masses in favor of Healthcare? [Not really feasible]

Infiltrating Insurance corporations with agents and undermine their operations from within via uncovering corporate crime, becoming part of management and crippling them with deliberate mismanagement, perhaps even smearing them with scandals big enough to undermine people's trusts in insurance companies, all with the goal of weakening their political and economic power? [On second thought, don't, too unrealistic]

Who knows what else we can do. We had to be creative and ruthless, people, the healthcare of the American public depends on it.

He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you. - Friedrich Nietzsche

Shadowdragon#, is that you?

[GrandMasterTerwynn]

I don't know, use smearing, expose and other dirty political tricks to remove politicians who might oppose Healthcare, just like what Anthony Weiner did to himself unintentionally? [Don't think its ridiculous, politicians had been doing it for years anyway]

The 'goldfish' public would get suspicious after about the tenth GOP toilet stall homosexual solicitation scandal in a month. And there is the chance that it will be exposed and backfire horribly, completely destroying any credibility you might have.

Set up a rival Media corporation, unite all liberal media personalities into it and somehow move its way to become equally massive as Fox News, and use it to sway American masses in favor of Healthcare? [Not really feasible]

How? Destroying Fox New headquarters with a stampede of unicorns shooting flaming leprechauns out of their asses? And where would you get the money to set up a media giant? Unless you've got an infinite money bug for the universe you're not telling us about, the advertising dollars needed to keep the network going will come from the same Corporate America you're trying to take down. And, even then, you'll be a long time pulling the general slant of American mass media from "leaning so far to the right it's in danger of capsizing" to merely "leaning to the right."

Infiltrating Insurance corporations with agents and undermine their operations from within via uncovering corporate crime, becoming part of management and crippling them with deliberate mismanagement, perhaps even smearing them with scandals big enough to undermine people's trusts in insurance companies, all with the goal of weakening their political and economic power? [On second thought, don't, too unrealistic]

Yeah, this is about the stupidest thing I've read all week . . . and that includes the mouth-breathers who like to comment on news articles. For one thing, there is that "it's seriously unethical, and the likelihood that it will backfire horribly is incredible" thing. For another thing, it's not just Big Insurance; it's the vast majority of Corporate America, which puts corporate profits well above the well-being of the expendable worker drones.

[Zaune]

Here's the thing: you go down that road, and you end up with two factions that are equally ruthless, extremist, and dishonest. That is not a healthy political culture. I would call it a step down the path to civil war.

No, I'm not a big fan of "ends justify the means".

One side being ruthless, extremist and dishonest where the other clings to the moral high ground is equally unhealthy. I'd call that a step down the path to oligarchy. Which is what we'd more than likely end up with after the civil war ended, of course. Damned if we do, damned if we don't I suppose.

[Simon_Jester]

Shadowdragon#, is that you?

I doubt it; SD was never banned or anything. Why would he want a sockpuppet?

Don't assume he was the only person in the world who thinks it's a brilliant idea to counter dirty tricks with dirty tricks. Or that abuse of power won't corrupt people whose intentions start out as (what they think is) righteous. Those are very common ideas.

[Metahive]

It was more meant as a jab rather than a serious accusation but I don't think only banned people would ever need to resort to sock-puppets. Escaping racked-up bad rep is temptation enough.

Don't assume he was the only person in the world who thinks it's a brilliant idea to counter dirty tricks with dirty tricks. Or that abuse of power won't corrupt people whose intentions start out as (what they think is) righteous. Those are very common ideas.

Don't tell me, the media are already full of this, think of all those glorified fictional vigilantes like the Punisher or Batman, especially the Millerite one.

[SpaceMarine93]

Don't worry, I am not him. I am willing to use better and less extreme methods and opinions

That Shadowndragon# guy sounds really infamous around this forum. Who on Earth was he?

[Simon_Jester]

He's one of the (duly titled) Village Idiots. Tended to mouth off about subjects he didn't know very much about, and to huff and puff about the need to take 'harsh measures' to deal with whatever he didn't like.

[SpaceMarine93]

I suppose he's no longer around?

[Simon_Jester]

He doesn't show up often. Eventually, he got the hint that people weren't amused by the spectacle of someone going "we need to frame these guys for crimes so they won't keep destroying our country!" and the like.

[Zaune]

He doesn't show up often. Eventually, he got the hint that people weren't amused by the spectacle of someone going "we need to frame these guys for crimes so they won't keep destroying our country!" and the like.

More nuanced than "Don't retreat, reload!" though, we have to credit him with that much.

[The Romulan Republic]

He doesn't show up often. Eventually, he got the hint that people weren't amused by the spectacle of someone going "we need to frame these guys for crimes so they won't keep destroying our country!" and the like.

More nuanced than "Don't retreat, reload!" though, we have to credit him with that much.

This from the guy who seven posts previously was arguing the Left needed to be more like the Right. Now you may say there's a difference between abandoning the moral high ground and insinuating people should be killed, but the climate of dehumanizing ones' opponents and victory by any means that mentality.

[Zaune]

This from the guy who seven posts previously was arguing the Left needed to be more like the Right. Now you may say there's a difference between abandoning the moral high ground and insinuating people should be killed, but the climate of dehumanizing ones' opponents and victory by any means that mentality.

You misconstrue my position somewhat. I don't actually like the idea of the Left adopting the tactics of the hard Right, because as you yourself pointed out, that path is a step towards civil war. I don't want to see it come to that, nobody in their right mind would.

But as far as I can see, the Right is using the Left's higher moral scuples to run rings around us, and I am sick of it.

[The Romulan Republic]

I don't believe that the Left has to be fanatical and ruthless to be strong. The Democrats are weak, but they're weak because they won't actually stand by liberal positions. All the Left needs is more leaders who are more willing to say "Yes I am liberal, this is what I believe, this is why, and I'm not going to concede this."

[SpaceMarine93]

Although I prefer "Ends justifies the means", I had some moral standards. For example, I never suggested anything physical as a means to an end. Why do so when you have other more subtle, non-violent and practical ways to achieve your goals, regardless of how ruthless they are? That would be wrong. If I want to be as bad that reportedly amoral "village idiot" Shadowdragon# I would had suggested violence and civil war outright, which I would never, ever do

I had met some people who are more extreme and ruthless than I am, though nearly all of them are all talk and no action. I could confidently say I'm frankly not the worse in this kind of thing. If you want me to give an example I am willing to share my experience.

[Simon_Jester]

Although I prefer "Ends justifies the means", I had some moral standards. For example, I never suggested anything physical as a means to an end. Why do so when you have other more subtle, non-violent and practical ways to achieve your goals, regardless of how ruthless they are? That would be wrong. If I want to be as bad that reportedly amoral "village idiot" Shadowdragon# I would had suggested violence and civil war outright, which I would never, ever do

Oh, Shadowdragon wasn't amoral. He was just prone to huffing and puffing and posturing, to failing to think through the logical implications of his own suggestions, and to speaking on subjects where he knew little. And (partly because of the previous three things), also prone to getting sucked into situations where he disapproved of some political change and decided that it needed to be crushed "by any means necessary," showing precisely the sort of "ends justify the means" thinking you describe.