StarDestroyer.Net BBS

Yes, SETA is a per-ship upgrade. You get it in your starter ship, but a new one you buy is stripped of it. What a brilliant idea they had there...

Personally I think X3TC is a brilliant game. Firstly its a sandbox, and that in it self is an improvement over most other games as it actually lets you do what you want and does not railroad you into a single unavoidable plot. On the other hand, you have plots, several of them for those that like to mess around with them. Yes, it takes some intelligence to play to remember to transfer SETA and the like. But that is a good thing. And finally for the missile frigate route, I would like you to note something. There are NO battleships in X3, none at all. The ship classes are as fallows: M1 Carrier, M2 Frigate, M2M Missile Frigate, smaller ships. Carriers and Frigates can pack a lot of point defense and launch fighters to take down missiles, something that fighters do quite well. M2M's launch missiles to blow up capital ships but are vulnerable to attacks from enemy fighters that the carriers can carry. It is perfectly balanced. And don't you dare try and contest that until you have seen your mighty M2M taken down by a swarm of Xenon M3 fighters.

The game feels like a huge MMORPG with you as the only player and the AI taking the role of the others. The economy shifts, prices go up and down and stations are torn down and new ones built. You are looking for millions of hours of fun in a universe that evolves around you. And with if you take the time to install the basic scripts that come with the game it only gets better.

It...is a good thing to have to fiddle with what should be a game feature or lose it? What? Because it "requires intelligence"? It requires memory. By that token, if my game makes you remember all essential numbers you need to play instead of letting you reference them, it's a good game.

True about the battleships, yeah. But it's hardly balanced when the player can massacre entire systems with one missile frigate or build up empire-shattering navies using nothing more than cargo transports.

Actually the ship classes are as follows:
M1: Carriers; M2: Destroyers (for all purposes battleships); M3: Fighters, M3+: Heavy Fighters; M4: Interceptors, M4+: Light Fighters; M5: Scouts; M6: Corvettes; M6+: Heavy Corvettes; M7: Frigates; M7M: Missile Frigates; M8: Bomber

Anyway, Destroyers are for all intents and purposes battleships: The largest capital ships around with plenty of shields, armor and firepower, as well as slow and ponderous.


While there is such a thing as anti-fighter weaponry on larger ships, the AI never uses it as point-defense against missiles in the unmoded game. In the unmoded game there IS no such thing as point defense. A missile frigate can fire missiles that outrange every other weapon in the game by a huge factor, are highly mobile, deal heavy damage and which can be fired in rapid succession - and it carries plenty of it. It IS an utter gamebreaker in an unmodified game, which is why introducing point-defense is the purpose of several different mods.

One thing that I wonder about this game is that do political boundries change in this game? Like will the Split or someone ever invade a Argon Territory and take controll of it?

No. That never, ever happens.

Purple wrote:Personally I think X3TC is a brilliant game. Firstly its a sandbox, and that in it self is an improvement over most other games as it actually lets you do what you want and does not railroad you into a single unavoidable plot. On the other hand, you have plots, several of them for those that like to mess around with them.

You mean just like Space Rangers, which manages to have all that and yet not be fundamentally mechanically broken or amazingly boring?

It isn't surpising to hear that most people don't care about balance in a single player game. They're just about feeling tough and powerful anyway, right?

PeZook wrote:It...is a good thing to have to fiddle with what should be a game feature or lose it? What? Because it "requires intelligence"? It requires memory. By that token, if my game makes you remember all essential numbers you need to play instead of letting you reference them, it's a good game.

And how exactly does X3 not allow you to reference things? All things are clearly shown in the status screen for your ship. (the properties one shows you all installed equipment.)

You seem to think that automation of everything is the key. Well I beg to differ. You are probably one of the people who does not enjoy micromanagement either. Have you ever plaid Civilization 4? An example from there, I am the kind of player who goes through each of his 40 cities in every turn to check for changes that the interface would show me if I did not turn it off becouse it's fun.

True about the battleships, yeah. But it's hardly balanced when the player can massacre entire systems with one missile frigate or build up empire-shattering navies using nothing more than cargo transports.

If you can pull that off, that only means you have extreme luck or have spent so much time playing the game that you have broken the system. If you play it long enough, anything can happen. It's a sandbox after all. You can well have a million factories churning out infinite missiles too.

Serafina wrote:Actually the ship classes are as follows:
M1: Carriers; M2: Destroyers (for all purposes battleships); M3: Fighters, M3+: Heavy Fighters; M4: Interceptors, M4+: Light Fighters; M5: Scouts; M6: Corvettes; M6+: Heavy Corvettes; M7: Frigates; M7M: Missile Frigates; M8: Bomber

Anyway, Destroyers are for all intents and purposes battleships: The largest capital ships around with plenty of shields, armor and firepower, as well as slow and ponderous.

No, the largest combat ship does not equal battleship. A battleship is by definition a heavily armed and armored combatant designed to engage other battleships in combat. M2 frigates are just that, frigates designed to escort carriers and engage smaller craft. Try killing an escorted M1 with frigates some time.

The only true battleship in the game is the ATF Valhalla that you can get with some mods. Now that thing is a battleship.

While there is such a thing as anti-fighter weaponry on larger ships, the AI never uses it as point-defense against missiles in the unmoded game. In the unmoded game there IS no such thing as point defense. A missile frigate can fire missiles that outrange every other weapon in the game by a huge factor, are highly mobile, deal heavy damage and which can be fired in rapid succession - and it carries plenty of it. It IS an utter gamebreaker in an unmodified game, which is why introducing point-defense is the purpose of several different mods.

Well than it's your fault for playing unmoded. Go on the X3 forum and everyone will tell you that the whole approach to the X universe by its creators is that moders should patch any gaps they leave. They even have mods that were released with the game on the game CD with the recommendation that you don't bother playing without them. Those things are patches in all but name.

Stark wrote:

Purple wrote:Personally I think X3TC is a brilliant game. Firstly its a sandbox, and that in it self is an improvement over most other games as it actually lets you do what you want and does not railroad you into a single unavoidable plot. On the other hand, you have plots, several of them for those that like to mess around with them.

You mean just like Space Rangers, which manages to have all that and yet not be fundamentally mechanically broken or amazingly boring?

It isn't surpising to hear that most people don't care about balance in a single player game. They're just about feeling tough and powerful anyway, right?

There is no such thing as balance. There is only fun and not fun. A game can be incredibly unbalanced and yet fun or incredibly balanced and yet boring (think chess).

M2 frigates are just that

Start reading. M2 is a destroyer, the M7 is a frigate. Yes, the frigates are escorts, but the bigger, tougher destroyer are more like capital ships than any other ship.

the whole approach to the X universe by its creators is that moders should patch any gaps they leave.

So the creators are too lazy to do their work? jesus...

incredibly balanced and yet boring (think chess).

Well, then aren't you just a complete ingrate, particularly if you think chess is boring.

Purple wrote:There is no such thing as balance. There is only fun and not fun. A game can be incredibly unbalanced and yet fun or incredibly balanced and yet boring (think chess).

You can't wish the concept of balance out of existence, you know. The best part is the dev intent for combat was made meaningless by their careless combat mechanics, thus invalidating whole swathes of playstyle as largely useless.

If balance doesn't exist, why is chess balanced?

Purple wrote: There is no such thing as balance. There is only fun and not fun. A game can be incredibly unbalanced and yet fun or incredibly balanced and yet boring (think chess).

This is the dumbest fucking thing i've ever heard anyone say in G & C.

I mean, jesus. This is just such a fundamental misunderstanding of how a game works that it peeks into psychological problems too.

Psychological problems? Can we please refrain from painting people as mentally ill ten posts into a discussion?

Purple wrote: And how exactly does X3 not allow you to reference things? All things are clearly shown in the status screen for your ship. (the properties one shows you all installed equipment.)

It's another thing to do (by scrolling through lists) which doesn't actually add anything to the game:the only consequence of not installing SETA is that you don't get time compression. A well-designed interface automates repetitive and tedious tasks, while allowing players to make decisions that impact the game. It doesn't burden the player with tediousness. Or would you say that it would be awesome if the player had to stock the ship's galley, arrange a safety inspection, wipe the windows, give himself an enema, don his spacesuit and run through a 600 point preflight checklist before undocking?

And no, X3 does NOT present information in a clear way. Can you easily check the total cash flow of your factories over time? Can you easily see where your ships are, whether or not they are in trouble and if you can send them help? Those are critical functions that the interface fails utterly at. You don't even have a strategic map of your assets in the game, you get a list that says "Factory name - Factory type - System Gbyrgyzhlad"

But yeah, having to memorize the entire game map in order to have an idea of the location of your assets is totally awesome and requires intelligence so it makes the game better.

Purple wrote: You seem to think that automation of everything is the key. Well I beg to differ. You are probably one of the people who does not enjoy micromanagement either. Have you ever plaid Civilization 4? An example from there, I am the kind of player who goes through each of his 40 cities in every turn to check for changes that the interface would show me if I did not turn it off becouse it's fun.

And some people do not like obsessively going through every city and playing three hour turns. A well designed game should allow you to automate those tedious tasks while letting you make decisions: Civ 4 actually does that (sort of, not particularly well) by using quick summary screens, governors, build queues etc.

Purple wrote:If you can pull that off, that only means you have extreme luck or have spent so much time playing the game that you have broken the system. If you play it long enough, anything can happen. It's a sandbox after all. You can well have a million factories churning out infinite missiles too.

Uh, what? It's not difficult at all. Cargo transport are CHEAP, drones are even cheaper. Missile frigates can be trivially taken over via boarding and then they literally don't need to do anything but spam missiles from a distance from the system's warp gate.

Purple wrote:Well than it's your fault for playing unmoded. Go on the X3 forum and everyone will tell you that the whole approach to the X universe by its creators is that moders should patch any gaps they leave. They even have mods that were released with the game on the game CD with the recommendation that you don't bother playing without them. Those things are patches in all but name.

Right: the "use mods" defence. The product sucks, but mods make it better and maybe not broken.

It doesn't matter that mods can't change, say...the horrible interface. You will still have to scroll through lists with your keyboard to perform simple tasks.

Purple wrote:There is no such thing as balance. There is only fun and not fun. A game can be incredibly unbalanced and yet fun or incredibly balanced and yet boring (think chess).

You say there's no such thing as balance,and then turn around and say chess are balanced

Say what you will, he admits he's OCD and is basically claiming this is the normal or superior state. That's why he thinks 'repeatedly perform simple tasks requiring no thought' = 'intelligent'; because he likes don't thinks repeatedly and manually, and likes to think he's intelligent.

What interesting (peripherally) is that the tools Pezook talks about (summary screens, tabbed windows, stat plots, etc) are the basic tools for any actual business or analysis. They are quite literally what you would actually need to do it 'for real'. Games that don't have these tools (like Sword of the Fucking Stars) exist in some backwards game developer land where you have to manually draw maps and note down conversation clues. Properly designed summaries and information charts actually make the 'standard' interfaces (like city screens, status windows, etc) irrelevant, since you can do everything but see more information. There is no reason for tasks to require an obsessive, OCD style of play beyond 'developers are dumb'.

PeZook wrote:It's another thing to do (by scrolling through lists) which doesn't actually add anything to the game:the only consequence of not installing SETA is that you don't get time compression. A well-designed interface automates repetitive and tedious tasks, while allowing players to make decisions that impact the game. It doesn't burden the player with tediousness. Or would you say that it would be awesome if the player had to stock the ship's galley, arrange a safety inspection, wipe the windows, give himself an enema, don his spacesuit and run through a 600 point preflight checklist before undocking?

Without the 600 point checklist, hell yes. The older X games had you manually open the cargo bay to pick items up. And some realism in terms of having to buy your own food, water and oxygen supplies would surely be fun to have.

And no, X3 does NOT present information in a clear way. Can you easily check the total cash flow of your factories over time? Can you easily see where your ships are, whether or not they are in trouble and if you can send them help? Those are critical functions that the interface fails utterly at. You don't even have a strategic map of your assets in the game, you get a list that says "Factory name - Factory type - System Gbyrgyzhlad"

Ergo scripts. If you fail to use the means that have been placed at your disposal it's your loss.

The bottom line here thou is that we are dealing with two quite different types of arguments here. You argue that the vanilla unmoded game sucks, ergo it's no fun and X3 should not be plaid in any way shape or form. I disagree with this by arguing that the fully moded and scripted up game is brilliant and must not be missed for anything in the world. You really don't know what you are missing if you just drop the game after 15 minutes with the unmoded raw.

But yeah, having to memorize the entire game map in order to have an idea of the location of your assets is totally awesome and requires intelligence so it makes the game better.

Its a function of personal preference. I like big complicated games with a steep learning curve that you can't just drop and pick up like minesweeper but actually have to mentally exert your self to play.

And some people do not like obsessively going through every city and playing three hour turns.

Don't be foolish. My longest turn took only 7 minutes.

A well designed game should allow you to automate those tedious tasks while letting you make decisions: Civ 4 actually does that (sort of, not particularly well) by using quick summary screens, governors, build queues etc.

I think that since we both know Civ 4 we can come to a sort of understanding by naming Civ 4 examples.
You strike me as the kind of person that would love the BUG mod. I on the other hand am the kind of person that sees it as an abomination against all that is Civ. But since both options are presented to us, nether of us should have the right to claim the game sucks for not picking his preferred one.

Uh, what? It's not difficult at all. Cargo transport are CHEAP, drones are even cheaper. Missile frigates can be trivially taken over via boarding and then they literally don't need to do anything but spam missiles from a distance from the system's warp gate.

Don't you think playing like that is a little cheap?

Right: the "use mods" defence. The product sucks, but mods make it better and maybe not broken.

Exatcly, don't dismis the product if mods make it into something great. By doing so, you lose that something great.

It doesn't matter that mods can't change, say...the horrible interface. You will still have to scroll through lists with your keyboard to perform simple tasks.

Scroll with your keyboard? I usually have a pen and paper by my side to make lists of things to do and combinations and a couple of spreadsheets open on the side to calculate the optimal combination of equipment to use for my M3 fighter escorts for my traders so that I can maximize long term profitability while minimizing loss to defensive capacity.

I go to college or to the corner store, and I am doing X3 math in my head to calculate stuff that I will do later on in the game proper. If a game makes me pull out a pen and paper and do calculations on the side. That is what a fun game is all about.

LOL, see what I mean? He's taking the piss. 'Game is good because you use pen and paper'.

So take a 'good' game like WoW and make it so you have no map and instead just have a list of places in no particular order, then make traveling even slower, and finally make it so that to cast anything you need to solve a math problem that flash on the screen. You have now Purplized the game and made it an unplayable mess.

Sigh. Haters gonna hate.

Really, once childish people get to making replies with no substance other than mocking what else is there to say.

Y'know I don't mind games that I use pen and paper for. I often do it in Blood Bowl or in larger turn based strategy games to remind myself what my long term plans are in case I have to stop playing.

But there should be a decent note-taking/stat tracking feature in a goddamn trading game.

weemadando wrote:Y'know I don't mind games that I use pen and paper for. I often do it in Blood Bowl or in larger turn based strategy games to remind myself what my long term plans are in case I have to stop playing.

But there should be a decent note-taking/stat tracking feature in a goddamn trading game.

It's really sad that there was a wave on 'internalising' that stuff (automapping, quest journals) but they never went further. Most turn-based games could benefit from conditional reminders or milestones, for instance, and it'd be fucking easy to do (ps steal Outlook's calender) so you didn't have to mendaciously fuck around like a caveman, but nobody does.

Shit, Space Rangers letting you 'save' messages as a reminder later blew me the fuck away and that was 2008.

Dude, Space Rangers has Space Google that lets you locate ships and check prices and missions available in other systems. This is obviously dumbing down the game!

Stark wrote:

weemadando wrote:Y'know I don't mind games that I use pen and paper for. I often do it in Blood Bowl or in larger turn based strategy games to remind myself what my long term plans are in case I have to stop playing.

But there should be a decent note-taking/stat tracking feature in a goddamn trading game.

It's really sad that there was a wave on 'internalising' that stuff (automapping, quest journals) but they never went further. Most turn-based games could benefit from conditional reminders or milestones, for instance, and it'd be fucking easy to do (ps steal Outlook's calender) so you didn't have to mendaciously fuck around like a caveman, but nobody does.

Shit, Space Rangers letting you 'save' messages as a reminder later blew me the fuck away and that was 2008.

I remember playing Morrowind back in the day with a crazy map program which let you drop notes onto the map and all the rest.

Most were things like: "Cave system, cleared."

Sometimes there was stuff like: "HOLY FUCKING SHIT GIANT FLAMING DEMON THING IN HERE."

And then when they didn't put that particular mod/addon thing into Oblivion, disappointment plus.

Well, some people did bitch that Oblivion automatically put map markers on places of interest and had fast travel

That's a different issue; that's not presenting information you have in a new way, that's giving you information by telepathy. 'There is a ruin 500m this way behind this hill' changes the game in the way a properly sorted quest journal doesn't. By the way, do you remember Oblivion's horrible, horrible quest journal?

Now I'm really sad turn based games don't let me drop things like 'remind me every x turns about this' and 'let me know when this happens' and shit in a calender, because everyone uses that every day at work. There's no way devs are unaware of it; they're just so mired in the mindset of 'turn based game = Civilisation, but with SHADERS' that they don't realise how much work is involved. I remember Dominions 2 wouldn't even let you automate units whose only role was to move around boosting the (x number) of a province, so every turn you had to manually check and plot movement over 10 guys and your whole empire. Because... that's what a king does, right? Issues operational orders to the most junior people in the country!

But why would you want to automate them? Is it not a million times more fun to manually control all units at all times?