How to stand up to cops

[Kamakazie Sith]

There is a lecture given to a group of law students on youtube, which I've watched two or three times, concerning how to deal with police officers in the US. The second part where a former police officers reveals some of the trade secrets is especially flabbergasting, even to a real cynic like myself.

What part was astonishing?

[TheFeniX]

Good advice but not appropriate in all situations. For example, in my city if we get called to your home on a loud party and I can hear your music 50ft away from your property then I already have enough to cite you. If you play like you're not there then you will absolutely get a citation and it is simply forwarded to the owner of the home. In other words I don't have to talk with anyone.

You can cite, but you can't enter. I also misspoke earlier: A police officer cannot force you to leave your home without a warrant. So, if they ask you to come with them for questioning: say "no" and immediately contact a lawyer.

There's always exceptions, but the case for what passes as probable cause get crazy. If he can look in a window from the street and see something illegal: he has cause. If he has to walk up to the window, then he has no cause.

Even if he did find something that you're unaware of, I always tell people to firmly, but politely state, "No, I'm not coming with you" or "No, you need to leave." If they press, follow it up with "I asked you to leave. You are trespassing." If they enter/take you anyway: then there is no doubt that you made your intentions clear on the matter. And the most important part is making it clear you are complying under protest, thus making it (slightly) easier if you decide to file a wrongful arrest suite if the officer is lying about the circumstances of his probable cause or if he was just wrong.

This is generally bad advice. Police carry weapons and will use them if faced with a physically resisting individual. If a police officer used excessive force to arrest me I'd just suck it up and then get a lawyer. Fighting back will just get you hurt and could damage your chances for justice because it shows that you resisted arrest.

As said, it would be stupid to fight back, but if you feel you aren't going to make it out alive anyway, there is legal justification for doing so. "Luckily," the overuse of the taser these days in reference to excessive force may just lead to officers laughing at you while you writhe in pain on the ground.

[Rahvin]

The case is ongoing, we just got her a non-Public-"Defender" lawyer yesterday, so I don't think I should talk more about details. The statement mixed up the order of two events, and it was the difference between a clear and obvious case of self defense and a felony charge. I'd be happy to share the details after it's all over, but my big lesson so far has been "shut the fuck up unless a lawyer tells you it's okay. And public "defenders" don't count."

[Kamakazie Sith]

You can cite, but you can't enter. I also misspoke earlier: A police officer cannot force you to leave your home without a warrant. So, if they ask you to come with them for questioning: say "no" and immediately contact a lawyer.

Or probable cause.

There's always exceptions, but the case for what passes as probable cause get crazy. If he can look in a window from the street and see something illegal: he has cause. If he has to walk up to the window, then he has no cause.

The second part is inaccurate. The route that normal visiting traffic would take to knock on your front door is not protected by the fourth amendment. So, if on approach to your front door I see evidence of a crime through your window while still on this route then I have probable cause.

Even if he did find something that you're unaware of, I always tell people to firmly, but politely state, "No, I'm not coming with you" or "No, you need to leave." If they press, follow it up with "I asked you to leave. You are trespassing." If they enter/take you anyway: then there is no doubt that you made your intentions clear on the matter. And the most important part is making it clear you are complying under protest, thus making it (slightly) easier if you decide to file a wrongful arrest suite if the officer is lying about the circumstances of his probable cause or if he was just wrong.

What is it that you do? Dealing with the police is a bit more complicated than that. Remember we're talking about dealing with police that abuse their authority and not dealing with the police period. If the police respond to your home on a report of any crime of violence the above won't work.

As said, it would be stupid to fight back, but if you feel you aren't going to make it out alive anyway, there is legal justification for doing so. "Luckily," the overuse of the taser these days in reference to excessive force may just lead to officers laughing at you while you writhe in pain on the ground.

Well, I agree. However, hopefully you'll be able to prove it...

[TheFeniX]

Or probable cause.

The probable cause better be pretty concrete, because I've heard of more than a few cases of officers forcing people out of their homes on flimsy justification costing Texas taxpayers hundreds of thousands of dollars. I've also read one where the civil case was turned down because the home owner agreed to go with them, then was detained for something like 48 hours after the fact. He had no recourse, which is why you should always go under protest and make sure you have as much evidence as possible you did so. If he was able to get cause on the walk to your front door, then you need to think about closing some blinds or telling your friends to shut up (or just get new friends).

If they arrest you, you go with them. But I'd ask if they have a warrant, if not, ask them why you're being arrested. They likely won't tell you or lie, but it's worth asking anyway so you can see what bullshit they charge you with later to save their ass.

If they ask you to come with them, you ask: "Am I under arrest?" If they say no, you do not go with them under any circumstances until you can go with a lawyer. There are obvious exceptions such as the death/injury of a family member. But I'd still take my own vehicle anyway. If they press the issue, slowly shut the door in their face, call 911, and report that there are officers harassing you at your front door.

The second part is inaccurate. The route that normal visiting traffic would take to knock on your front door is not protected by the fourth amendment. So, if on approach to your front door I see evidence of a crime through your window while still on this route then I have probable cause.

The justification gets flimsy if you can prove the officer moved off the beaten path. For instance, in my home, you could not see more than the left 20% of the front room from the driveway/walkway. You'd have to walk into the rose bushes to see more.

We had this discussion in 11th grade with a Rosenberg police officer who almost arrested a woman who was peering into a man's house from the side window and complained he was walking around nude. When the officer showed up, he realized the woman not only had to trespass, but also jump up to get vision. I always assumed it was a pier and beam style house as they usually have their windows set higher than most.

What is it that you do? Dealing with the police is a bit more complicated than that. Remember we're talking about dealing with police that abuse their authority and not dealing with the police period. If the police respond to your home on a report of any crime of violence the above won't work.

Ugh, that's not my point. The point is that at all times, you do not give a police officer the benefit of the doubt. You tell him he cannot enter. If he's going to enter, you can't stop him, but you can make it apparent that you did not consent to anything to protect yourself and to set up a wrongful arrest suite. Cops are taught to treat every traffic stop/whatever like it's possible life and death. Why is it bad for me to treat every cop like he's going to fuck me if he gets the chance? I'm not rude about it. In fact, 99% of all the limited interaction I've had with on-duty police has been very pleasant. That doesn't mean I will let my guard down though.

I have cop friends and I've shot IPSC matches with off-duty cops. Even they tell me to only give cops as little as possible and make sure that everything they make you do is done under verbal (not physical) protest.

As for dealing with crooked cops: the more you press a lying cop to justify himself, the more he has to lie. If it's on tape, he then has to destroy it or admit he was lying. The more you verbally protest (in clear and respectful language), the more witnesses may see/hear your predicament and be willing to testify. That's the point: if you protect yourself as much as possible from honest cops, the crooked ones might think you aren't worth fucking with.

Just like walking tall, constantly looking around, avoiding blind spots, etc will make most criminals pick another target: crooked cops want easy marks to exploit. This is likely why they content themselves with targeting minorities. Shoot an unarmed minority in the back while he's sleeping, get time off with pay. Put one 14-year-old white girl in jail for a night: even the Houston Police Chief gets shit-canned. Ah, Houston.......

[U-95]

I agree that depends of the country. Besides when I had to renew the DNI (the ID), that's nothing but office work that has nothing to see with this,as far as I can remember, I've had just one close encounter with the police -both of them the local (Municipal) one and none of them with the national (Nacional) one-.
One of them was when I had to go to a shop and lost a bus. Since I had desire to walk a bit and the next bus stop was not very far, I went walking to the next bus stop, sometimes looking behind in the case the bus appeared to sprint to that bus stop to catch it.
Instead of the bus a car of the local police appeared and made me to stop. They made me to give them the ID and I saw how with the car's radio one of them checked If i had been "checked in" before while other was talking with me about why I was doing that. When they saw I was "clean" and was just a misunderstanding, they forgave me and let me go. I've to say they were quite polite and friendly (as I was talking with them).
Another encounter was with the Guardia Civil -the spanish gendarmerie-. I was returning of a night observation carriying the telescope as usual on a largue sports bag and, in the middle of nowhere, they stopped me wanting to know what I was carrying and doing there. Again, they were quite polite and when they saw what was being transported on the bag and explained them I had been observing the skies, the let me go, without even requiring my ID.

Guess that, among other things, depends on how polite you're and that -for now- this is a relatively calm country. In fact, I remember two years ago being with friends on a shop center and seeing how the police -the national ones- was called because some teenagers were doing stupid things there. The guys were to the point of nearly insulting them when their IDs were required; however despite that the police continued being polite and were able to control the situation.