old republic MMO place in cannon

[Ahriman238]

I think those 3 trailers are in reverse order of release. I wonder if it was their intention to work backwards choronlogically, or if it just happened.

I don't really have an issue with any of the game being cannon, it's a big galaxy with a history spanning htousands of years. Well, ok, I have 2 problems with it. First, technology does change in SW, most of the Clone Wars ships and weapons are outdated by the time of the Galactic Civil War, the Interdictor was also a recent invention, and ships, particularly warships tend to be massively superior to anything used 20 or 30 years ago, much less millenia ago.

Second, having this constant conflict, ancient, recent, current, and future between the Jedi and the Sith just gets...



Really, why should we care anymore? No victory by either side is lasting. An evil empire will rise, and be overthrown, seemingly every generation. Nothing of true signifigance is done or learned.

Of course, their attempt to depart from that dynamic with the Vong didn't work out that well...

[Ritterin Sophia]

Really, why should we care anymore? No victory by either side is lasting. An evil empire will rise, and be overthrown, seemingly every generation. Nothing of true signifigance is done or learned.

It's more like every ten or twenty generations. Star Wars has hundreds of years without seriously notable wars breaking out, we can't do that for more than what? Five at the most?

[Adam Reynolds]

It's more like every ten or twenty generations. Star Wars has hundreds of years without seriously notable wars breaking out, we can't do that for more than what? Five at the most?

Although this is on the scale of Earth. Conflict on the scale of a single planet was really not all that notable. In AOTC even Naboo politicians were making comments about the lack of full scale war since the formation of the Republic, despite the damage to their planet.

[Galvatron]

Didn't the prequels treat the Ruusan Reformation a millennium prior as the "formation of the Republic?"

[Ritterin Sophia]

Wouldn't that be more akin to the transition between the Fourth and Fifth French Republic? Technically both a continuation of the prior government but still a new distinct entity?

[Havok]

Didn't the prequels treat the Ruusan Reformation a millennium prior as the "formation of the Republic?"

Do we know if Lucas cared or even knew about that? He may have had a completely different idea when he wrote that line.

[Galvatron]

Well, latter-day Lucas seems to think that the Republic was only a thousand years old. Young Lucas had Obi-wan tell us that the Jedi protected the Old Republic for over a thousand generations. There's gotta be some in-universe explanation for that.

And no, I don't think Lucas cared. I'm pretty sure he stopped genuinely caring after he made ANH.

[Imperial Overlord]

There's also a line by Mace Windu to the effect of "The tyranny of the Sith shall never return!" in ROTS, which implies the Sith had a good chunk of the galaxy under their heel at some point in the past.

[Havok]

I've made that argument before. That based on Windu's and Palpatine's statements of the Republic that has stood for 1000 years, the oppression of the Sith never returning and once more the Sith will rule the galaxy that the Sith did indeed rule a very large part of, if not all the galaxy and Obi-Wan's statement of the Jedi being the guardians of the galaxy for over 1000 generations was the Jedi fighting to free the galaxy from Sith control culminating with the destruction of the Sith, the establishment of the Republic and providing a proper reason why the Sith seek revenge on the Jedi.

[Darksider]

And no, I don't think Lucas cared. I'm pretty sure he stopped genuinely caring after he made ANH.

If Lucas stopped caring, how did ESB, ROTJ, and ROTS end up being genuinely enjoyable films? I'll admit that he's certainly declined as a filmmaker since the OT, but I Honestly don't believe he's just trying to milk the cash cow.

As for the Sith ruling the galaxy, the EU uses the Ruusaan reformation for that too. Prior to the Battle of Ruusaan, the Sith controlled most of the Galaxy. I don't know if Coruscant itself was ever occupied, but the Republic basically ceased to exist as a functioning government entity.

[Ritterin Sophia]

From what I remember prior to the Ruusan Reformation the Republic was reduce to a rump state comprising the core worlds and their colonies closest to the galactic core and for a couple hundred years was governed by a largely benevolent military dictatorship under the authority of the Jedi Order.

And checking Wookieepedia it would appear I'm remembering correctly. So it seems we'd be correct: The Sith Empire controlled most of the Galaxy and the Republic in the four centuries before the Reformation was really only a Republic in name only. The Ruusan Reformation appears to have been a quite literal reformation.

[Shroom Man 777]

Really, why should we care anymore? No victory by either side is lasting. An evil empire will rise, and be overthrown, seemingly every generation. Nothing of true signifigance is done or learned.

Of course, their attempt to depart from that dynamic with the Vong didn't work out that well...

You could change the dynamics or make it more ambiguous. If the whole Jedi vs. Sith gets old, then why can't we change the Jedi and the Sith?

Why not have, in the grim darkness of the far future, the Jedi end up becoming corrupt church militant-esque enforcers of some twisted order where the whole "don't feel sad about your dead mom, detach yourself from your emotions" thing is taken to the extreme? Why not have them defend a dysfunctional and genuinely crappy Republic of some sort?

And why not make the passionate emotionally charged Sith less villainy and more like plucky romantic anarchistic punks fighting for freedom of emotion, thought, and destiny? Rather than shrivelled old prune soul-sucking assholes. We can ditch the whole Sith mantra of listening to Linkin Park while snap hiss wrist-slitting themselves with laser swords because peace is a lie and evilness is the only good thing there is blah blah blah dark and edgy bullshit with Sith Lords riding Sith Star Destroyers that have piercings and tattoos adorning their neutronium hulls.

Maybe we can make them hedonistic guys who value life because to live is to experience emotion and shit. Live the moment and stuff.

The Jedi would say that suffering leads to anger and hate and fear. But does not the suffering of the poor and the downtrodden and the oppressed also lead one to feel compassion and empathy, especially when we don't detach ourselves from feeling for them, but instead feel passion over their plight and emotional resonance that makes us do good?

Maybe this hypothetical future Jedi's whole "don't mind suffering of friends and folks, it is the will of the Force" shtick makes them not overtly evil, but just downright apathetic towards the faults of the system - and by not caring about it because "god the Force wills it", they become complicit in this.

And maybe the Sith can lead a rebellion to fragment the dysfunctional Galactic Republic. Not to create or remake it into another fuckoff huge galactic nation state or Empire. But maybe to break it down to multiple smaller nations and societies that are free to make their own destinies, without being dictated against their wills by assholes in Coruscant. Yes, this will cause destabilization and perhaps even war down the line (yup), but... well, at least the trillions of peoples in these systems and sectors will be able to decide on their own and make their fates, for better or worse.

Or something.

Make it like the real collapse of the Roman Empire - and the gradual rise of the European nations and peoples and shit. How instead of one big Empire, we gradually ended up with all these kingdoms. At first they were shitty, and maybe after a few Space Wars and Endor Holocausts, these kingdoms eventually lighten up and become pretty decent progressive places. Like Europe IRL, and how it changed over the course of a shitload of centuries.

[Havok]

Simple solution. Reboot.

If Star Trek can do it, so can Star Wars.

There is enough source material now (G, T canon) to restart the EU fresh from ROTJ.

Two rules. 1000 year moratorium on the Sith (In universe, obviously ) and no more Galactic changing events.

[The Romulan Republic]

Galactic changing events should happen from time to time, but they should be rare. I would write a rule that says their can only be one such event in a given period of time.

[VarrusTheEthical]

Simple solution. Reboot.

If Star Trek can do it, so can Star Wars.

There is enough source material now (G, T canon) to restart the EU fresh from ROTJ.

Two rules. 1000 year moratorium on the Sith (In universe, obviously ) and no more Galactic changing events.

Personally, I think that the EU was fine right before Vector Prime, when the Vong showed and trashed the New Republic, giving us the current Galactic Alliance non-sense. The EU plot from the Heirs of the Empire trilogy to the Hand of Thrawn duology is essentially about the ascendency of the New Republic, and role that the heroes from the movies play in that . So if there is retconning, I would suggest doing it after the Hand of Thrawn.

[Havok]

Gawd no.

[Broken]

Personally, I think that the EU was fine right before Vector Prime, when the Vong showed and trashed the New Republic, giving us the current Galactic Alliance non-sense. The EU plot from the Heirs of the Empire trilogy to the Hand of Thrawn duology is essentially about the ascendency of the New Republic, and role that the heroes from the movies play in that . So if there is retconning, I would suggest doing it after the Hand of Thrawn.

The EU before Vector Prime was the era of the Imperial Warlord of the week, the forgotten Superweapon of the month, and ever more desperate attempts to keep Luke Skywalker as far away from the plot as possible (while keeping him in the books for sales) to prevent him from solving it in 5 minutes. Honestly, the best solution is to raze that crap right to the ground and start over, but it would piss off too many people to be seriously considered I bet.

[Pelranius]

Personally, I think that the EU was fine right before Vector Prime, when the Vong showed and trashed the New Republic, giving us the current Galactic Alliance non-sense. The EU plot from the Heirs of the Empire trilogy to the Hand of Thrawn duology is essentially about the ascendency of the New Republic, and role that the heroes from the movies play in that . So if there is retconning, I would suggest doing it after the Hand of Thrawn.

The EU before Vector Prime was the era of the Imperial Warlord of the week, the forgotten Superweapon of the month, and ever more desperate attempts to keep Luke Skywalker as far away from the plot as possible (while keeping him in the books for sales) to prevent him from solving it in 5 minutes. Honestly, the best solution is to raze that crap right to the ground and start over, but it would piss off too many people to be seriously considered I bet.

A reboot would probably end up keeping a lot of the same elements (a lot of the big EU names have already gotten appearances in the Classic and Prequel materials) but it could probably result in even a bigger mess.

[Havok]

A reboot would be a reboot. Except in this case instead of setting to zero like Star Trek just did, you set to 7, meaning the end of ROTJ.

Think of it like keeping TOS and just rebooting TNG and beyond.

You now have a complete saga in the movies and the soon to end The Clone Wars filing in the time between AOTC and ROTS, and the (hopefully) upcoming live action Star Wars to fill in the gap between the two trilogies.

Now, if you want, you can reboot the pre movie EU, but that doesn't seem to be as bad as the post stuff.

The thing is, there are statements made in the movies that effect the history that has been established, or at least have to be reconciled to fit those statements.

Better to just wipe it all out and give a fresh start that doesn't have to do that. Most of the pre movie stuff is comics and games anyway that most people don't really know outside of vague references, wiki articles and flash backs in other media.

Star Wars fans are fans of the movies, not the EU. As long as you don't mess with the source material, everything else is inconsequential.

And don't give me "Well it is going to piss off writers and so and so when their work is discarded.". No it won't. They are professionals, they got paid. If they really love Star Wars that much, they can come back to the new blank slate and recontribute what they would like, whether it be similar stories and characters or something completely new.

The EU is a boring mess and it is only going to get worse.

[Pelranius]

Of course, how much can a reboot change anything? Thrawn, Pellaeon, Mara Jade, Ysanne Isard, Garm Bel Iblis, Corran Horn, Vergere, the Yuuzhan Vong, Lumiya, Daala to name a few, are all already established as characters (through works like Choices of One, Outbound Flight, Death Star, various short stories) even if you remove all the EU material that took place after RotJ.

It would look like some sort of rehashing of established EU trends/money grab by LFL with so many similarities.

[Broken]

Of course, how much can a reboot change anything? Thrawn, Pellaeon, Mara Jade, Ysanne Isard, Garm Bel Iblis, Corran Horn, Vergere, the Yuuzhan Vong, Lumiya, Daala to name a few, are all already established as characters (through works like Choices of One, Outbound Flight, Death Star, various short stories) even if you remove all the EU material that took place after RotJ.

It would look like some sort of rehashing of established EU trends/money grab by LFL with so many similarities.

Basically, you would have to declare everything except G level canon (movies + Lucas) and T level canon (television) as no longer existing. Total reboot as Havok stated, just movies and TV stuff as a base. Then Thrawn, Pellaeon, Mara Jade, Ysanne Isard, Garm Bel Iblis, Corran Horn, Vergere, the Yuuzhan Vong, Lumiya, Daala all NEVER existed because they were never mentioned in the films or the TV shows. All those books and other assorted references that got put out like the ICS and guides to the shows, gone; no longer apply to the EU 2.0 that would be created. As close to a clean slate as you can get.

The only way, of course, to keep the new EU on track and avoid a train wreck like the current EU is a fairly detailed overview of the timeline you intend to play around in (say the 50 years after Endor as "The Great Rebuilding") with a dictatorial editorial hand to keep the ship going the right way before the first author is contacted and a single word written for the public. It would take a complete willingness to screw up the schedule by demanding rewrites, axing projects, and forcing people and writers back to the drawing board. I don't think it could ever be done (at least how I would like it done) without putting the entire EU in the hands of a single person or board that shares a single vision, not to mention the financial chaos and contract issues. But it is fun to imagine.

[Pelranius]

Of course, how much can a reboot change anything? Thrawn, Pellaeon, Mara Jade, Ysanne Isard, Garm Bel Iblis, Corran Horn, Vergere, the Yuuzhan Vong, Lumiya, Daala to name a few, are all already established as characters (through works like Choices of One, Outbound Flight, Death Star, various short stories) even if you remove all the EU material that took place after RotJ.

It would look like some sort of rehashing of established EU trends/money grab by LFL with so many similarities.

Basically, you would have to declare everything except G level canon (movies + Lucas) and T level canon (television) as no longer existing. Total reboot as Havok stated, just movies and TV stuff as a base. Then Thrawn, Pellaeon, Mara Jade, Ysanne Isard, Garm Bel Iblis, Corran Horn, Vergere, the Yuuzhan Vong, Lumiya, Daala all NEVER existed because they were never mentioned in the films or the TV shows. All those books and other assorted references that got put out like the ICS and guides to the shows, gone; no longer apply to the EU 2.0 that would be created. As close to a clean slate as you can get.

The only way, of course, to keep the new EU on track and avoid a train wreck like the current EU is a fairly detailed overview of the timeline you intend to play around in (say the 50 years after Endor as "The Great Rebuilding") with a dictatorial editorial hand to keep the ship going the right way before the first author is contacted and a single word written for the public. It would take a complete willingness to screw up the schedule by demanding rewrites, axing projects, and forcing people and writers back to the drawing board. I don't think it could ever be done (at least how I would like it done) without putting the entire EU in the hands of a single person or board that shares a single vision, not to mention the financial chaos and contract issues. But it is fun to imagine.

Umm, I believe Havok was talking about a Post Endor EU reboot.

[Havok]

No, I'm certainly fucking not.

I can live with the pre Movie crap because it is just 'history' so to speak and isn't a part of Star Wars that is "current" and it has no bearing on devaluing the movies and the events in them. Even stuff that covers young Obi-Wan

Did Nomi Sunrider live 4000 years ago or 40,000 years ago? Who cares. It doesn't matter. It is just Jedi lore.

The EU as a whole is crap and erasing it all would be absolutely fine, but just not necessary for fixing what is really wrong, which is the post ROTJ The only EU that should be kept is what is directly attached to the movies like the Vader novels attached to ROTS and maybe Shadows of the Empire.

It also has little to no bearing on the post movie EU.

[Connor MacLeod]

Frankly I think anyone who brings up 'canon' and 'Star Wars' again should be gagged. If anything has 'ruined' Star Wars its the obsession over canonicity and which source has which precedence over what. Canon is the shit you get in religion, and when it becomes a religion you start having popes and high priests with funny hats who also talk funny and sacred books which CANNOT BE CONTRADICTED IN THE LEAST.

Throw out the canon, remember that the SW galaxy is a galaxy, the government should be a backdrop in which individual stories occur, and that there are lots of stories in that great, big galaxy, and that you don't have to have a threat of the week that either has to be stopped, or brings the galactic government to its knees to have a decent book.

And I'm also heretical enough to extend this notion to the movies themselves. Canonizing the movies is as big a mistake as being all inclusive with the EU.

[Pelranius]

A reboot would be a reboot. Except in this case instead of setting to zero like Star Trek just did, you set to 7, meaning the end of ROTJ.

That sounds a lot like a post Endor EU reboot, by virtue of wiping out everything beyond RotJ (my apologies if you're talking to Broken, Havok).