US Soldier introduces Afghans to US trad. of spree killings

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Re: US Soldier introduces Afghans to US trad. of spree killi

Post by Zaune »

Lost Soal wrote:Senator Lindsey Grahams response to the shooting;
"These Things Happen" :shock:

I'm sure that will play well. What next, you going to attack Obama for apologising for this?
Hate to say it, but he does make a good point. It's not possible to screen for mental health issues or substance abuse with 100% reliability even in peacetime, and the stress of combat operations is inevitably going to aggravate an underlying issue of that sort.

This is a terrible tragedy, yes, but it's the kind of terrible tragedy that could happen anywhere people with access to firearms get put though all kinds of really awful shit.
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Re: US Soldier introduces Afghans to US trad. of spree killi

Post by K. A. Pital »

Other than him being an asshole and openly saying America's goal should be to stuff Afghanistan chock-full of militaristic cocktoys? If this point was coming from some other direction... then yeah.
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Re: US Soldier introduces Afghans to US trad. of spree killi

Post by Alkaloid »

Hate to say it, but he does make a good point. It's not possible to screen for mental health issues or substance abuse with 100% reliability even in peacetime, and the stress of combat operations is inevitably going to aggravate an underlying issue of that sort.

This is a terrible tragedy, yes, but it's the kind of terrible tragedy that could happen anywhere people with access to firearms get put though all kinds of really awful shit.
So I suppose next time a kid looses it and shoots up his school, Senator Grahams will make a public statement that amounts to, "These things happen, suck it up and move on."

He isn't wrong per say, these things do sometimes happen, but you don't just dismiss them when they happen in America so you can't just dismiss them when they happen in Afghanistan, especially when they happen via one of your good and noble soldiers who only invaded in the name of justice and freedom. Unless you want the locals to hate you and assume you are there because you hate them and want to kill them and take their stuff.
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Re: US Soldier introduces Afghans to US trad. of spree killi

Post by Block »

Is he just dismissing it? He acknowledges that it's horrible and tragic, and he's 100% right that these things do unfortunately happen in war. People snap, especially ones with prior brain damage as this soldier apparently had. It's sad, and you try to prevent it from happening as best you can. You don't change your entire strategy because of it.
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Re: US Soldier introduces Afghans to US trad. of spree killi

Post by Mr Bean »

Block wrote:Is he just dismissing it? He acknowledges that it's horrible and tragic, and he's 100% right that these things do unfortunately happen in war. People snap, especially ones with prior brain damage as this soldier apparently had. It's sad, and you try to prevent it from happening as best you can. You don't change your entire strategy because of it.
The point is he should have stopped at it's horrible and tragic, if he wanted to say more he could have gone with the generic, I'm a senator not the President so all I can say is that I hope justice is served.

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Re: US Soldier introduces Afghans to US trad. of spree killi

Post by Alkaloid »

Is he just dismissing it? He acknowledges that it's horrible and tragic, and he's 100% right that these things do unfortunately happen in war. People snap, especially ones with prior brain damage as this soldier apparently had. It's sad, and you try to prevent it from happening as best you can. You don't change your entire strategy because of it.
When was the last time there was a spree killing in the US and anyone in government had a public response that was 'these things happen?' Because these things happen in the US as well, in fact there have arguably been more spree killings outside of combat by US citizens in the US than there have been in Afghanistan in the last decade.
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Re: US Soldier introduces Afghans to US trad. of spree killi

Post by Block »

Alkaloid wrote:
Is he just dismissing it? He acknowledges that it's horrible and tragic, and he's 100% right that these things do unfortunately happen in war. People snap, especially ones with prior brain damage as this soldier apparently had. It's sad, and you try to prevent it from happening as best you can. You don't change your entire strategy because of it.
When was the last time there was a spree killing in the US and anyone in government had a public response that was 'these things happen?' Because these things happen in the US as well, in fact there have arguably been more spree killings outside of combat by US citizens in the US than there have been in Afghanistan in the last decade.
What point do you think you're trying to make? Government officials always say it's unfortunate that these things happen, or some other empty platitude.
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Re: US Soldier introduces Afghans to US trad. of spree killi

Post by Alkaloid »

What point do you think you're trying to make? Government officials always say it's unfortunate that these things happen, or some other empty platitude.
That he would never have considered saying it if it had happened in the US, or even if it had been US soldiers he shot instead of Afghans.
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Re: US Soldier introduces Afghans to US trad. of spree killi

Post by Edi »

Major Nidal Hasan killed, what, 13 US soldiers at Fort Hood. Tragic, but these things happen, but people just have to suck it up and move on, no?

Oh, wait, that's not what happened in reaction. There was an absolutely fucking massive shitstorm even though in the context of the War on Terror and Al-Qaida vs the US, his victims were actually a legitimate military target in the sense that mattered. And even then it seemed more a case of somebody snapping and going on a killing spree than actively being apart of AQ.

What we can expect to happen here is a few empty platitudes from the US even as they make excuses, then have this case quietly buried in "investigations" for several months or years at the end of which the shooter will get a slap on the wrist if that and then Americans will be going "Why are you all being so mean to us?". There is certainly enough precedent for that.
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Re: US Soldier introduces Afghans to US trad. of spree killi

Post by Imperial Overlord »

I'm not so sure that the guy is going to get a slap on the wrist. He's a lone guy whose crime is clear and internationally embarrassing. He can easily be thrown under the bus and then buried.
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Re: US Soldier introduces Afghans to US trad. of spree killi

Post by Edi »

There is that, which is about the only reason he might get the book thrown at him full strength. However, I will not assume that to happen until it has actually happened.
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Re: US Soldier introduces Afghans to US trad. of spree killi

Post by Alkaloid »

Yeah, like all those guys from Haditha were thrown under a bus and buried. Man, would not want to be those guys. A whole three months in prison. Well, for one of them anyway, it wouldn't do to make our punishments too severe.
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Re: US Soldier introduces Afghans to US trad. of spree killi

Post by thejester »

Imperial Overlord's point is that it's vastly easier at virtually every level - from the actual logistics of prosecution to the military's reluctance to punish it's own - to put this guy away for a very long time, than it is with war crimes like Haditha, to the point where the two are almost incomparable.
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Re: US Soldier introduces Afghans to US trad. of spree killi

Post by Simon_Jester »

Right.

Put it another way, the US military does have rules against, say, getting drunk and taking some guns off base and just firing them into the air wildly because you want to see fireworks. Even though that's relatively harmless (still harmful) behavior by the standards of a war zone, it's bad for discipline on many levels, and the military does try to care about discipline.

What this guy did is a lot worse than that, and it's going to be less likely that anyone will bother to cover his ass for what he did, which is different from what happens when a whole squad or platoon goes My Lai on a place and none of them are willing to testify on each other.

Hence, yes, it's possible that this guy will get punished to an extent something vaguely like what he deserves, because even from the point of view of a military that tolerates atrocities, he really screwed the pooch. But, yeah, after Haditha and Abu Ghraib and so many other cases, I'm not going to predict that he'll get punished significantly. I certainly won't predict that he'll get punished in a way that convinces the Afghans we actually care about him shooting Afghans.
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Re: US Soldier introduces Afghans to US trad. of spree killi

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Really, the only way it is easier for them to prosecute this is if people who can't be easily dismissed as 'leftist' or 'unamerican' make a fuss for long enough for a trial to be run. If they don't, the easiest thing to do is quietly brush the whole thing under the rug and give him the minimal sentence possible so stories about soldiers going to prison or being executed don't scare off potential recruits.
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Re: US Soldier introduces Afghans to US trad. of spree killi

Post by The Yosemite Bear »

we were discussing this in relation to Lt. Calley as to what may befall the army service man in question....
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Re: US Soldier introduces Afghans to US trad. of spree killi

Post by LaCroix »

http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/allege ... sCatID=359

Allegedly, the person in question had sustained serious brain damage in Irak. (and was still considered fit for duty in Afghanistan)
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Re: US Soldier introduces Afghans to US trad. of spree killi

Post by The Yosemite Bear »

I was figuring from what I heard about his time in Iraq that it was that and untreatd PTSD...
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Re: US Soldier introduces Afghans to US trad. of spree killi

Post by Aaron MkII »

Well if any of that is true and was in any way responsible then whoever cleard him to deploy should be in the docket next to him.
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Re: US Soldier introduces Afghans to US trad. of spree killi

Post by General Mung Beans »

A truck breached onto the airfield where Defence Secretary Panetta was landing:

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/15/world ... ml?_r=1&hp
Panetta Is Safe After Breach Near His Plane at Afghan Base
Pool photo by Scott Olson

Defense Secretary Leon E. Panetta arrived at Forward Operating Base Shukvani, Afghanistan, on Wednesday.
By ELISABETH BUMILLER
Published: March 14, 2012

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KABUL, Afghanistan — A tense visit to Afghanistan by Defense Secretary Leon E. Panetta got off to an alarming start on Wednesday when a stolen pickup truck sped onto a ramp alongside a runway at a British military airfield and crashed into a ditch as Mr. Panetta’s plane was landing.
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Obama Promises Thorough Inquiry Into Afghan Attack (March 14, 2012)
Home Base of Accused Soldier Has Faced Scrutiny (March 14, 2012)
Kyrgyzstan Wants Military Role to End at U.S. Base (March 14, 2012)

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Mr. Panetta was unhurt, but Pentagon officials said the Afghan driver had emerged from the vehicle in flames.

No explosives were found on the driver, a civilian, or in the truck, the officials said, and the Pentagon was not immediately considering the episode an attack on Mr. Panetta. But it reinforced the lack of security in Afghanistan at the beginning of his two-day visit, the first by a senior member of the Obama administration since an American soldier reportedly killed 16 Afghan civilians, mostly children and women, in Kandahar Province. The visit had been planned months ago, but took on new urgency after the Sunday massacre.

Mr. Panetta, like President Obama, has denounced the deaths and vowed to bring the killer to justice, a message he was to deliver in person to President Hamid Karzai of Afghanistan. The killings have further clouded already strained Afghan-American relations. On Wednesday, an American official said the suspect had been moved out of Afghanistan. That is likely to further anger Afghans, who called for him to be tried in their country.

The truck crashed as Mr. Panetta landed at Camp Bastion, a British airfield that adjoins Camp Leatherneck, a vast United States Marine base in Helmand Province, next to Kandahar.

Mr. Panetta and his aides were aware of the crash shortly after it happened, about 11 a.m., but he continued as planned, meeting with local Afghan officials; delivering remarks to 200 Marines, other international troops and Afghan security forces at Camp Leatherneck; and then heading to a remote combat outpost, Shukvani, in western Helmand.

Mr. Panetta’s aides did not disclose the crash until nearly 10 hours later, well after Mr. Panetta had arrived in Kabul from his day in the south, and at least an hour after the British media began reporting it. It was not clear if the aides would have made the disclosure had word not leaked out.

Defense officials said Mr. Panetta’s plane had been diverted away from the truck, which ended up in the ditch off the ramp, an area where Mr. Panetta’s plane had been expected to park. The Pentagon press secretary, George Little, said he did not know whether the truck reached the ramp parking area “while we were landing or before or slightly after.”

Mr. Little said that the stolen vehicle had not exploded, contrary to some earlier reports, and that Mr. Panetta had never been in danger. But he could not explain the Afghan’s motive or explain why he was on fire. “For reasons that are totally unknown to us at this time, our personnel discovered that he was ablaze,” Mr. Little said. “He ran, he jumped on to a truck, base personnel put the fire out, and he was immediately treated for burn injuries.”

In Washington, Capt. John Kirby, the Pentagon spokesman, said the truck had been stolen from a coalition service member — he did not give a nationality — who was wounded in what was apparently a carjacking. There was no immediate evidence that the Afghan driver “had any idea who was on that aircraft,” Captain Kirby said.

Mr. Panetta flew from Washington to Manas, Kyrgyzstan, on his usual plane, a reconfigured Boeing 747 with “United States of America” emblazoned on the side, but as usual for security reasons, he transferred to a gray C-17 military cargo plane for the unannounced trip to Afghanistan.

In a sign of the nervousness surrounding the trip, a sergeant major abruptly told the Marines gathered to hear Mr. Panetta in a tent at Camp Leatherneck to get up, place their M-16 and M-4 automatic rifles and 9-millimeter pistols outside, and return unarmed. The sergeant major, Brandon Hall, told reporters that he was acting on orders.

“All I know is I was told to get the weapons out,” he said. Asked why, he replied: “Somebody got itchy — that’s all I’ve got to say. Somebody got itchy. We just adjust.”

Normally, American forces in Afghanistan keep their weapons when the defense secretary visits and speaks to them. The Afghans in the tent had not been armed to begin with, as is typical.

Later, American officials said that the top military official in Helmand, Maj. Gen. Mark Gurganus, had decided on Tuesday that no one would be armed while Mr. Panetta spoke, but that word had not reached those in charge in the tent until shortly before Mr. Panetta was due to arrive.

General Gurganus told reporters later that he had wanted a consistent policy for everyone in the tent, and that “I wanted to have the Marines look just like their Afghan partners,” noting, “You’ve got one of the most important people in the world in the room.” He insisted that his decision had had nothing to do with the massacre; later, defense officials said the decision had had nothing to do with the truck at the airfield.

In his remarks to the Marines, Mr. Panetta vowed to not allow the Kandahar killings to accelerate the American withdrawal from Afghanistan. “We will be challenged by our enemies. We will be challenged by ourselves. We will be challenged by the hell of war itself,” he said.

Mr. Panetta then flew to Combat Outpost Shukvani, where Marines fight alongside troops from the former Soviet republic of Georgia. The commander of the 750 Georgian troops, Lt. Col. Alex Tugushi, lost both legs in an explosion from a homemade bomb in December; he is recovering at the National Naval Medical Center in Bethesda, Md., where President Obama has visited him.

Mr. Panetta read a letter to the Georgians from Colonel Tugushi that said in part: “Unfortunately, I could not complete my service with you. But I am proud of all of you — those who have fallen and those who continue to serve. You are all heroes who will go down in Georgian history.”

A roadside bomb struck a minivan in Helmand at about 1 a.m., killing eight civilians. Until then, American commanders had said the province was relatively quiet after the massacre, unlike Panjwai, the district in Kandahar where it occurred. Militants there attacked a memorial service for the 16 victims on Tuesday when an Afghan government delegation was present, firing machine guns and assault rifles from their motorcycles and killing at least one Afghan soldier; a motorcycle bomb went off Wednesday near where the same delegation was staying in Kandahar City, killing a security officer.

Mr. Panetta told reporters on his plane on Monday that the killings in Panjwai were a horrific part of the decade-old conflict.

“War is hell,” he said. “These kinds of events and incidents are going to take place, they’ve taken place in any war, they’re terrible events, and this is not the first of those events, and it probably will not be the last.”

Graham Bowley and Rod Nordland contributed reporting from Kabul, and Taimoor Shah from Kandahar, Afghanistan.

This article has been revised to reflect the following correction:

Correction: March 14, 2012

A news alert and a headline on an earlier version of this article mischaracterized the initial reports of the incident at the base in Afghanistan. The Pentagon officials did not refer to the stolen car igniting; they described a flaming man emerging from the stolen car.
This was rather astounding in my opinion:
Militants there attacked a memorial service for the 16 victims on Tuesday when an Afghan government delegation was present, firing machine guns and assault rifles from their motorcycles and killing at least one Afghan soldier; a motorcycle bomb went off Wednesday near where the same delegation was staying in Kandahar City, killing a security officer.
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Re: US Soldier introduces Afghans to US trad. of spree killi

Post by mr friendly guy »

He has been named
Soldier accused of Afghan massacre returns to US
by: NewsCore From: NewsCore March 17, 2012 2:14PM

THE US soldier accused of killing 16 Afghan civilians in a door-to-door rampage - identified by military sources as Staff Sergeant Robert Bales - has been flown back the United States.

The confirmation of his name, by three military sources, came as Sgt Bales was being transferred from Kuwait back to the US.

Shortly after 11pm Friday (local time), a military statement announced that he had been on board a military aircraft that landed earlier in Kansas City.

Sgt Bales has since been transferred to a detention facility at Fort Leavenworth and will be kept in his own cell at the 464-bed facility.

Bales is alleged to have walked off his base in the Panjway district of Kandahar province in southern Afghanistan last Sunday and gunned down 16 villagers - including nine children and three women - plunging already tense US-Afghan relations into a tailspin.

It is not yet clear what Bales will be charged with, and officials said it was not clear how long he would be kept at Fort Leavenworth.

"No decisions have been made. We're not there in the process," Pentagon spokesman John Kirby told The Wall Street Journal.

Sgt Bales is 38, married with two children and based out of Washington state's Joint Base Lewis-McChord.

He and his family live in nearby Lake Tapps, the Journal added, saying Bales is from the 3rd Stryker Brigade of the 2nd Infantry Division, which deployed to Afghanistan in early December.

Kassie Holland, 27, a neighbour, told reporters she knew Sgt Bales and his wife and two children well, sharing birthday parties and July 4 barbecues.

"Just a great, great guy," she said. "Happy, laughing, life of the party."

NBC News said Sgt Bales was a native of Ohio and his wife was said to be an executive at a Seattle-area company.

She and his children have been moved on base out of fears for their safety.

Online military-related references to Sgt Bales, including an article posted on an army publication, were expunged shortly after his name was released, FOX said.

But in one of them, quoted by the Journal, he spoke of previous experiences in war and said he knew how to tell "the bad guys from the noncombatants".

His lawyer, John Henry Browne, said at a press conference on Thursday that his client was a "highly decorated" soldier who had earned "every award you can get".

Mr Browne told reporters that prior to his client's deployment in Afghanistan, he had been on three tours of duty in Iraq after enlisting in the army immediately after the 9/11 terror attacks.

He added that Sgt Bales was upset on the day of his alleged attack after seeing a colleague have his leg blown off a day earlier.

Mr Browne said Sgt Bales had twice been injured on previous deployments to Iraq - once when an IED explosion caused a car accident and another time in combat, which led to him losing part of one foot.

Afghan President Hamid Karzai yesterday blasted the US for failing to hand him over to Afghan authorities, describing the lack of co-operation between the two countries as intolerable.

The New York Times reported earlier that his brief presence in Kuwait sparked a diplomatic feud after Kuwaiti officials said they were not briefed about the accused soldier's arrival by their US counterparts.
I suspect the delay in naming him was to move his family onto base for their protection.
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Re: US Soldier introduces Afghans to US trad. of spree killi

Post by Edi »

The tone of that article and the various others I've read on the subject, as well as the statements from various public figures (including Panetta) about how "These things happen in war" don't leave me very optimistic about the way this is going to be handled.

Then again, when the expectation is zero, there can be hardly any other direction than upward.
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Re: US Soldier introduces Afghans to US trad. of spree killi

Post by Simon_Jester »

D-13, being practical about this, there's no coupling between the two attitudes. Decision-makers who say "these things happen in war" are trying to shrug them off and carry on as if they'd never happened, and they will keep fighting wars.

At least trying to place blame on individuals (or a chain of command responsible for the individual's actions) encourages the military to act in a disciplined way, and makes it look like the people in charge actually give a shit about the people they claim they want to liberate. Whereas ignoring these things tends to make them spread.
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Re: US Soldier introduces Afghans to US trad. of spree killi

Post by Aaron MkII »

Simon_Jester wrote:D-13, being practical about this, there's no coupling between the two attitudes. Decision-makers who say "these things happen in war" are trying to shrug them off and carry on as if they'd never happened, and they will keep fighting wars.

At least trying to place blame on individuals (or a chain of command responsible for the individual's actions) encourages the military to act in a disciplined way, and makes it look like the people in charge actually give a shit about the people they claim they want to liberate. Whereas ignoring these things tends to make them spread.
No it doesn't. The military has a long tradition of blaming the lowest guy they can get away with. If this guy did actually suffer head truama and PTSD, you'll not see the doc who cleared him up on charges.
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Re: US Soldier introduces Afghans to US trad. of spree killi

Post by Simon_Jester »

Aaron MkII wrote:
Simon_Jester wrote:D-13, being practical about this, there's no coupling between the two attitudes. Decision-makers who say "these things happen in war" are trying to shrug them off and carry on as if they'd never happened, and they will keep fighting wars.

At least trying to place blame on individuals (or a chain of command responsible for the individual's actions) encourages the military to act in a disciplined way, and makes it look like the people in charge actually give a shit about the people they claim they want to liberate. Whereas ignoring these things tends to make them spread.
No it doesn't. The military has a long tradition of blaming the lowest guy they can get away with. If this guy did actually suffer head truama and PTSD, you'll not see the doc who cleared him up on charges.
This is true.

Maybe it would be less wrong (more right?) to say that punishing crimes allows for responsibility, while ignoring them does not, in general. When there's a chain of command, a crime can happen on multiple levels- the corporal who shoots prisoners and the captain who got him to do it can both be responsible.

Punishing grunts at least establishes that there is a chain of command which has some kind of principle in mind about discipline or something. By itself, it's not enough, but it's a necessary part of the process because you can't have an army behaving decently if the individual soldiers don't behave decently.

Punishing officers/doctors/whatever, along with the grunts, is important, though- and that's where a lot of armies fall down.

But you won't see any more responsibility for actions coming out of "these things happen in war" than you will out of "punish the guilty." Having the shit land on no one is not necessarily better than having the shit fall on the lowest-ranking person available... who in this case, was the guy who actually pulled the trigger.
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