Man who helped catch Bin Laden sentenced to jail by Pakistan

[Simon_Jester]

Treason gets set up for cases where something that might otherwise be innocuous ends up causing a disaster for the country.

For example, saying "General Huffandpuff is going to have a staff conference on Wednesday in Townville" probably isn't a problem normally. But if you tell it to some foreigner who wants to kill President Huffandpuff, and they bomb the hell out of Townville to get him, then it becomes a problem.

When guys on your side start aiding someone who's attacking you, it can screw you over really badly, even if what they're doing would be fine normally.

[Elfdart]

In replying to the following claims. I'm going to assume that the laws in Pakistan are anything like US law when it comes to treason, namely levying war against the country or adhering to the nation's enemies. This is in keeping with Glennzilla's idea of pretending the roles were reversed, and an American had aided a foreign country to carry out a military attack/assassination on US soil:

So? That's not treason.

Sure it is. He accepted money from, and worked for the same foreign agency that was already slaughtering Pakistani citizens -including civilians.

Bribery isn't automatically treason.

When the money you receive from a foreign spy service and pay out on their behalf is being used to arrange an attack on your own country, you bet your ass it is.

Still not treason. Endagering public health, corruption, bribery - perhaps. Perhaps even "at the behest of a foreign power"..but not treason. Unless you define germs as the enemy

Inviting foreign troops to enter your own country for an attack within that country would fall under levying war.

I'm not saying he's not a criminal ; Just not a traitor deserving between 33 and 36 fucking years in prison.

What would be a fitting penalty in your mind for someone who conspires with a foreign government to carry out an assault on your own country? If anything, this guy got off easy, since the usual punishment involves a gibbet or a firing squad.

[Sarevok]

If an American secretly worked as an agent for a foreign espionage agency and claimed it was for a "good" cause would he be allowed to go free ?

[Simon_Jester]

What makes this case interesting is that theoretically the Pakistani government 'wanted' bin Laden to get caught in the first place.

If bin Laden was a friend of Pakistan under Pakistani protection, then calling Dr. Afridi's actions treason would make lots of sense. But instead, Pakistan avowed its own hostility to al Qaeda, and as far as I know did not renounce the US sending troops to kill or capture him- theoretically, they were willing to do it themselves, too.

I have often said "turnabout is fair play:" a spy from A caught in B shouldn't expect better treatment than a spy from B who's caught in A while doing the same thing. But here, it's not 100% about the turnabout question. It's also about whether Pakistan's stated goals line up with their policies. Is their national plan to declare that they're the enemies of these guys, while secretly sheltering them and trying to avoid doing anything about them that might make it hard to use them later?

In the same way, suppose there was some wanted criminal on the loose in the US, and the US said as a matter of public policy that he was public enemy number one. And then suppose that an American leaked information about this criminal to Chinese or British or Israeli or South African or heck, Pakistani intelligence.

And then the US court system puts the man on trial for treason.

That sends an interesting mixed message about whether the US really wanted the guy caught or not.

[Simon_Jester]

But is it treason?

[The Yosemite Bear]

reminds me what happened to the folks that helped Wiesenthal in South America with his illegal kidnappings including Eichmann?

[Simon_Jester]

Did they get thrown in jail for that? Huh.

Were they charged with treason, by an Argentine government officially committed to hunting down Nazi war criminals? Because that'd be some pretty messed up stuff.

[The Yosemite Bear]

sctually I was asking

[PeZook]

Sure it is. He accepted money from, and worked for the same foreign agency that was already slaughtering Pakistani citizens -including civilians.

Except that's not enough ; Just like Al Capone's barber isn't liable for any of his crimes, merely being paid by the CIA doesn't mean you automatically commit treason.

Not even gathering information for them is enough ; There's people who gather information for the CIA in every country that's included in the World Factbook. Does this mean that employees of the polish Cenral Statistical Office, who get paid by the CIA for copies of their publication, the Yearly Statistical Review, are a bunch of filthy traitors?

When the money you receive from a foreign spy service and pay out on their behalf is being used to arrange an attack on your own country, you bet your ass it is.

So the guy was now involved in planning the attack on Osama's compound?

Come on. He was paid to gather DNA samples in the hope that maybe it would lead to finding Osama ; He had literally zero influence over how this information would be used by the US. The decision to violate Pakistan's airspace to kill the man (who, by the way, was technically not even a citizen of legal resident of Pakistan!) was made elsewhere.

Inviting foreign troops to enter your own country for an attack within that country would fall under levying war.

That's true, except he did nothing of the sort. It was the US government which went over the heads of their nominal allies.

What would be a fitting penalty in your mind for someone who conspires with a foreign government to carry out an assault on your own country? If anything, this guy got off easy, since the usual punishment involves a gibbet or a firing squad.

What knowledge did he have of the attack? Did he enable it in any way? All he did was gather information on a wanted international criminal, violate people's privacy and endanger public health.

[Alkaloid]

Ok, lets say OBL wasn't hiding out in Pakistan. Lets say he was staying in 113 North Jackson Street, Arlington, Virginia, United States, that being a house in DC I just randomly looked up on google maps. And lets say that an American doctor was paid by the ISI to administer fake vaccines (thats what they were, vaccines that the locals were told would work, which did not) to American schoolchildren as part of an operation to find him. The conclusion of that operation involves a raid by Pakistani special forces during which they violate US airspace, crash a helicopter into the house and shoot everyone inside, take the body and leave without informing the US government.

The US wanted OBL dead as much as anyone, but do you seriously expect the US is not going to absolutely shit about this. Or would you say that the US should just shut up and take it because they got what they wanted? It is essentially an act of war, and if any American citizens were involved I would be very surprised if someone didn't at least try them for treason, let alone have them convicted.

[Block]

You forgot the part where part of the FBI and US Military would be actively working to hie Bin Laden from justice.

[Simon_Jester]

Ok, lets say OBL wasn't hiding out in Pakistan. Lets say he was staying in 113 North Jackson Street, Arlington, Virginia, United States, that being a house in DC I just randomly looked up on google maps. And lets say that an American doctor was paid by the ISI to administer fake vaccines (thats what they were, vaccines that the locals were told would work, which did not) to American schoolchildren as part of an operation to find him. The conclusion of that operation involves a raid by Pakistani special forces during which they violate US airspace, crash a helicopter into the house and shoot everyone inside, take the body and leave without informing the US government.

The US wanted OBL dead as much as anyone, but do you seriously expect the US is not going to absolutely shit about this. Or would you say that the US should just shut up and take it because they got what they wanted? It is essentially an act of war, and if any American citizens were involved I would be very surprised if someone didn't at least try them for treason, let alone have them convicted.

It would be totally logical for the US to try the doctor for medical malpractice, et cetera.

Trying the doctor for treason only makes sense in the US legal code if we argue that the doctor was doing certain things. Because, to quote Article 3... "Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort."

Now, we would have two choices here. One is to say that committing medical malpractice in the US is an act of war against the US. This will probably not fly in court for obvious reasons. The other is to argue that the Pakistanis are our enemies, that by aiding them to capture this man you are somehow helping them fight the US. If the US wanted to try the doctor specifically for treason in this case, they would essentially have to come out and say this.

It's not treason if you're furthering your own nation's goals and interests. It's only treason if you're working against them, in which case I'd be interested to hear Pakistan explain exactly how not keeping bin Laden hidden away would hurt Pakistan.

[Sea Skimmer]

Arguing is it treason is pointless given the conditions of the ‘conviction’. This guy was convicted by a local tribal court with no actual judge, no right to self defense or even to appear in the court, and has had no formal verdict issued. It’s almost the pure definition of a kangaroo court, never mind the fairly absurd notion that a tribal court in an autonomous region is even allowed to hand out convictions for treason against a entire nation. It makes a Gitmo military tribunal's rules look fair.

[MKSheppard]

You forgot the part where part of the FBI and US Military would be actively working to hie Bin Laden from justice.

And Block nails it. Come the fuck on. Does anyone still believe that OBL hid in Abbotabad without anyone noticing? When he was literally within a few blocks' walking distance of Pakistan's West Point; a place where they would have had their version of the US Secret Service check out residences nearby in advance of the Pakistani Army's Chief of Staff visiting it for a speech?

[PeZook]

Arguably, at this point undermining ISI goals might actually be the most patriotic thing a Pakistani can do, depending on the precise circumstances

Arguing is it treason is pointless given the conditions of the ‘conviction’. This guy was convicted by a local tribal court with no actual judge, no right to self defense or even to appear in the court, and has had no formal verdict issued. It’s almost the pure definition of a kangaroo court, never mind the fairly absurd notion that a tribal court in an autonomous region is even allowed to hand out convictions for treason against a entire nation. It makes a Gitmo military tribunal's rules look fair.

Well, I am arguing from the standpoint of "In any sane country...".

[MKSheppard]

To restore some sanity to this thread

http://www.longwarjournal.org/threat-ma ... kistan.php

Pakistan has moved swiftly against the doctor who helped the CIA find Osama bin Laden. Just over one year after Osama bin Laden was killed, Pakistan has convicted Dr. Shakil Afridi for "anti-state activities" for aiding in the death of the terror leader. From Dawn:

...

Meanwhile, four years after the terror assault on Mumbai that killed 165 people, which was launched from Pakistani soil by the Lashkar-e-Taiba, and despite ample evidence handed over by the Indian government, not a single person has been convicted for the terror attack. Hafiz Saeed, the emir of the Lashkar-e-Taiba who has been implicated in the Mumbai attack and other terror assaults, not only walks free, but is a celebrity in Pakistan. He is feted by politicians, generals, and the media, despite a $10 million reward offered by the US government for information leading to his arrest and conviction.

And only in Pakistan can the men who were responsible for the Lal Masjid insurrection in the heart of Islamabad, in which more than 100 people were killed, walk free. And to add insult to injury, the Pakistani Supreme Court is demanding that the government move quickly to rebuild the Jamia Hafsa, the adjoining madrassa that was illegally built on government land and torn down in 2007. Read this article by Pervez Hoodbhoy at The Express Tribune for more information.

I could go on and explore the irony of Pakistan's closing the NATO supply routes after Pakistani troops initiated the firefight in November 2011 that resulted in the deaths of 24 of its troops, or Pakistan's demands that the US continue to fund Pakistani military operations while its military and intelligence service continue to support the Taliban in Afghanistan as well as various jihadist groups, etc., but won't.

[Alkaloid]

And Block nails it. Come the fuck on. Does anyone still believe that OBL hid in Abbotabad without anyone noticing? When he was literally within a few blocks' walking distance of Pakistan's West Point; a place where they would have had their version of the US Secret Service check out residences nearby in advance of the Pakistani Army's Chief of Staff visiting it for a speech?

Of course I don't believe that. That's not the point anyway. The point is that it is absurd to think that anyone illegally aiding a foreign intelligence agency to conduct a military operation on their own country's soil is not potentially opening themselves up to charges of treason. There is no more reason for Pakistan to tolerate this behaviour from its citizens than there is for the US to tolerate US citizens aiding MI6 or Mossad agents in operations that involve violent raids and shootings on US soil. And you can be sure if that were to happen there would be a whole lot of people looking to find a way to make treason charges stick just like they are with Manning or like they are trying to do with espionage charges for Assange.

[Irbis]

Not that I disagree with what was said there, but...

Inviting foreign troops to enter your own country for an attack within that country would fall under levying war.

That's true, except he did nothing of the sort. It was the US government which went over the heads of their nominal allies.

What would be a fitting penalty in your mind for someone who conspires with a foreign government to carry out an assault on your own country? If anything, this guy got off easy, since the usual punishment involves a gibbet or a firing squad.

What knowledge did he have of the attack? Did he enable it in any way? All he did was gather information on a wanted international criminal, violate people's privacy and endanger public health.

By that standard, you can easily excuse 99% spying cases in any country. Potential spies have no idea what their data is used for, do not facilitate any use of it, do not enable anything. All they do is to gather information, sometimes on very innocuous things, and that without violating any privacy or endangering public health. It is the receiving government that goes about heads of anyone making use of the collected data.

I remember one thing from memoirs of Soviet spy. He basically went to a man working in military base and asked him... No, not to spy, to write science fiction book about conflict involving his base. Realistic book. Offering to pay for 10 copies. Said spy wrote it was efficient way to quiet the man's conscience. Is writing an SF book, something protected by a few amendments, worse than fake vaccination program?

Trying the doctor for treason only makes sense in the US legal code if we argue that the doctor was doing certain things. Because, to quote Article 3... "Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort."

Now, we would have two choices here. One is to say that committing medical malpractice in the US is an act of war against the US. This will probably not fly in court for obvious reasons. The other is to argue that the Pakistanis are our enemies, that by aiding them to capture this man you are somehow helping them fight the US. If the US wanted to try the doctor specifically for treason in this case, they would essentially have to come out and say this.

It's not treason if you're furthering your own nation's goals and interests. It's only treason if you're working against them, in which case I'd be interested to hear Pakistan explain exactly how not keeping bin Laden hidden away would hurt Pakistan.

Let's take this guy. Is Israel* levying War against US? Is Israel US enemy? Is Israel giving Aid and Comfort to US enemies? Is Israeli espionage act of war against the US? Is Israel US enemy? Isn't Israel being stronger furthering US's goals and interests?

By the above standards, the man did nothing wrong, and should be commended. Which, sadly, doesn't happen in real life**, and the man is doing 30 years, minimum, possibly life sentence. Why? Do we argue Israel is enemy after all?

*Insert more than a dozen other US allies if this example bothers you.

**Unless you're a traitor in Poland, and expose most of your country you swore to defend to nuclear strikes, then, you're feted a hero by local idiots and given your own streets and monuments, of course

[PeZook]

By that standard, you can easily excuse 99% spying cases in any country. Potential spies have no idea what their data is used for, do not facilitate any use of it, do not enable anything. All they do is to gather information, sometimes on very innocuous things, and that without violating any privacy or endangering public health. It is the receiving government that goes about heads of anyone making use of the collected data.

Yes, and if you notice, I wrote about researchers around the world who are paid by the CIA to deliver such information, and NOTHING COMING OUT OF IT,because not all work paid for by the CIA qualifies as espionage.

Special services often don't like foreign agencies doing operational work on their turf (like, say, tracking international criminals) without telling the hosts, yeah. But it's hardly every considered treason or even simple espionage.

I remember one thing from memoirs of Soviet spy. He basically went to a man working in military base and asked him... No, not to spy, to write science fiction book about conflict involving his base. Realistic book. Offering to pay for 10 copies. Said spy wrote it was efficient way to quiet the man's conscience. Is writing an SF book, something protected by a few amendments, worse than fake vaccination program?

If the guy who wrote the book revealed classified information, it's espionage. If he didn't, then it's not - it's the very reason why classified information even exists, so that we don't go around shooting business researchers for treason.

[The Yosemite Bear]

for all he knew we could have been trying to do a snatch and grab simular to the means where Eichmann was removed form Argentina while being protected by the Argentine government, and was shipped to a carribean conuntry and than flown to Europe by individuals affiliated with the government of Isreal....

[Simon_Jester]

Trying the doctor for treason only makes sense in the US legal code if we argue that the doctor was doing certain things. Because, to quote Article 3... "Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort."

Now, we would have two choices here. One is to say that committing medical malpractice in the US is an act of war against the US. This will probably not fly in court for obvious reasons. The other is to argue that the Pakistanis are our enemies, that by aiding them to capture this man you are somehow helping them fight the US. If the US wanted to try the doctor specifically for treason in this case, they would essentially have to come out and say this.

It's not treason if you're furthering your own nation's goals and interests. It's only treason if you're working against them, in which case I'd be interested to hear Pakistan explain exactly how not keeping bin Laden hidden away would hurt Pakistan.

Let's take this guy. Is Israel* levying War against US? Is Israel US enemy? Is Israel giving Aid and Comfort to US enemies? Is Israeli espionage act of war against the US? Is Israel US enemy? Isn't Israel being stronger furthering US's goals and interests?

No, no, no, no, probably not, your grammar is falling apart and...

Pollard wasn't convicted of treason, you nitwit. Now, I'll grant he was convicted of a 'lesser' espionage crime that carries a life sentence, but I talked about treason specifically for a reason.

Of course...

http://bostonglobe.com/news/world/2012/ ... story.html

Afridi wasn't convicted of treason either. He was hauled up before a kangaroo court and accused of bribing an Islamic fundamentalist warlord. This, to my way of thinking, comes across as a trumped up charge, or at least one hell of a surprise given that he's being accused of working for the Americans and for the fundamentalists at the same time.