Beowulf wrote:Is it standard procedure to leave cuffs loose enough that they can manage to go halfway up the forearm?
I assume you're talking about the female. Handcuffs can only close so tight before you've run out of notches. If you're talking about the male then handcuffs are only applied so tight to ensure that you don't cause extreme pain to the subject. Tight handcuffs can be very painful to a person handcuffed behind the back sitting in a police car with a cage.
I can confirm that, having had placed handcuffs on me during legal training for demonstration purposes.
Sea Skimmer wrote:Thinking about it a bit, I really have to wonder if this guy wasn't actually trying to get the gun off himself and ditch it inside the car knowing he'd be in serious trouble if he carried it into a jail, and accidentally shot himself in the process.
That seems to be the most likely explanation IMO.
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For those wondering, the Medical Examiners have turned in their report. Link
Long, detailed, but two things jump out at me: The right temple is the entrance point. Possible if you're flexible enough, but I can't see it being something you do when trying to ditch the gun. No test for GSR to determine if he actually did fire it.
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The report says the gun was against his head when it was fired, and the wound went straight across the head from just in front of one ear to just above the other. It seems implausible that he'd be able to do that with his hands handcuffed behind his back.
SirNitram wrote:For those wondering, the Medical Examiners have turned in their report. Link
Long, detailed, but two things jump out at me: The right temple is the entrance point. Possible if you're flexible enough, but I can't see it being something you do when trying to ditch the gun. No test for GSR to determine if he actually did fire it.
[Armchair forensics]GSR would likely be a pointless test in a confined environment like that. You could probably test the glovebox and determine that IT shot the guy because it would be just as coated as everything else.
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A decision must be made in the life of every nation at the very moment when the grasp of the enemy is at its throat. Then, it seems that the only way to survive is to use the means of the enemy, to rest survival upon what is expedient, to look the other way. Well, the answer to that is 'survival as what'? A country isn't a rock. It's not an extension of one's self. It's what it stands for. It's what it stands for when standing for something is the most difficult! - Chief Judge Haywood
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the first is a procedure violation, the latter sparks a huge investigation.
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Grumman wrote:The report says the gun was against his head when it was fired, and the wound went straight across the head from just in front of one ear to just above the other. It seems implausible that he'd be able to do that with his hands handcuffed behind his back.
Frankly, it is implausible to those who have no experience dealing with handcuffed prisoners or handcuffs in general. The video I posted earlier gives some credibility to the claim though if you don't want to take my experienced opinion on the subject. What I find highly unlikely is two officers deciding to murder a prisoner while he is handcuffed and seated in the back of a patrol car and then when describing what happened they decide to add that they searched him multiple times.
Article wrote: **Important information taken from article**
The Arkansas State Crime Lab has ruled the death of Chavis Carter as a suicide.
The report also shows the results of toxicology tests, which showed Carter did have meth in his system. The bloodwork also showed Carter had trace amounts of oxycodone and marijuana in his system at the time of his death.
A number of witnesses were interviewed, and police said their statements were consistent with the officers' accounts of what happened and with the dash cam video from both cruisers. Officers said the statements and the audio/video evidence from the dash cams account for the policemen's actions from the beginning of the stop until the arrival of the ambulance.
The report also said the evidence indicates that neither officer removed his weapon, fired a shot or was in a position to enter the vehicle where Carter was detained in a manner that would allow for them to injure Carter.
Police are continuing the search for witnesses and anticipate further investigation.
Furthermore, the police department told Region 8 News that the windows in the patrol unit where Carter was detained were up and intact, indicating no possibility of a bullet penetrating from the outside of the patrol unit.
How Carter managed to shoot himself remains a mystery, but JPD has been in contact with the FBI who have agreed to monitor the case, and Jonesboro Police are sharing all investigative material with them.
The Jonesboro Police Department has also inspected Carter's cell phone. The inspection, police said, revealed that Carter may have been in possession of the gun while engaged in some sort of drug related activity prior to his encounter with the police.
Simon_Jester wrote:
Handcuffed man shoots self point blank in right temple... uh yeah.
This is the point where if it were me, I'd recommend a very serious investigation.
I'd recommend a very serious investigation any time you have an in-custody death.
So wait, the medical examiner rules it a suicide and there's EYEWITNESS testimony that the police were outside the vehicle when they all heard the pop and people are still skeptical? The eyewitness is in the video that accompanies the article.
(CNN) -- The Arkansas medical examiner has ruled the death of a man shot while handcuffed in the back of a police car as a suicide, the state crime lab announced Monday.
Chavis Carter, 21, died July 29 while in the back of a Jonesboro, Arkansas, police car. The police report from that night shows officers detained Carter after learning there was a warrant for his arrest in Mississippi and searched him twice before leaving him handcuffed in the backseat of a patrol car.
"At the time of discharge, the muzzle of the gun was placed against the right temporal scalp," the crime lab's report states.
Police said they discovered a .380-caliber Cobra semi-automatic pistol when the found Carter's body slumped over.
Many people in Jonesboro were skeptical about the shooting, as was Carter's mother.
"I think they killed him," Theresa Carter told CNN on Wednesday. "I mean, my son wasn't suicidal."
She also said her son was left-handed and had called his girlfriend to tell her he would contact her from jail.
She wondered how police could find a bag of marijuana and not find a gun when they searched her son.
There have been several protests in Jonesboro by citizens who don't believe the police explanation.
Police have released a video in which an officer dramatizes how someone could shoot themselves while in the back of a police car. The officer was the same height and build as Carter, police said.
They also have released the interview room video of a witness who said police were standing outside the car when a shot was fired.
The autopsy also showed that Chavis Carter tested positive for marijuana, amphetamines (including meth) and benzodiazepines, classified by the U.S. Drug Enforcement Administration as depressants.
Jonesboro police said the investigation into Carter's death is ongoing.
jcow79 wrote:So wait, the medical examiner rules it a suicide and there's EYEWITNESS testimony that the police were outside the vehicle when they all heard the pop and people are still skeptical? The eyewitness is in the video that accompanies the article.
well some people wish to belive US cops (especially ones from the southern states are bloodthisty enough to shoot random suspects for shits and giggles, while at the same time being stupid enough to try to cover it up in a way that's an obvious cover up to just about anyone.
while there's still things that are of suspect (like the fact they didn't find the gun) some people just take their hatred of the authorities too far even here.
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Yeah, I don't believe for a second the cops killed him. I just don't see how he could possibly have shot himself point blank in the temple with his hands behind his back. That's why I strongly suspect that he was cuffed in front.
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Grumman wrote:The report says the gun was against his head when it was fired, and the wound went straight across the head from just in front of one ear to just above the other. It seems implausible that he'd be able to do that with his hands handcuffed behind his back.
Frankly, it is implausible to those who have no experience dealing with handcuffed prisoners or handcuffs in general. The video I posted earlier gives some credibility to the claim though if you don't want to take my experienced opinion on the subject.
You're right, I didn't see the link you posted on the first page before I wrote that. I did not think that you'd have that much freedom of movement while handcuffed but clearly I was wrong.
Flagg wrote:Yeah, I don't believe for a second the cops killed him. I just don't see how he could possibly have shot himself point blank in the temple with his hands behind his back. That's why I strongly suspect that he was cuffed in front.
I guess that is a possibility but I find it unlikely because cuffing from the front is considered dangerous because the subject can still punch you, can still grab you, and can still use a weapon on you with far greater ease and no jail in the nation that I'm aware of will allow you inside with a single prisoner cuffed in the front.
And I'm still confused how you don't see how he could possibly have shot himself when you have people in this thread telling you they've seen such flexibility in others or themselves AND the Jonesboro PD created a video showing you the possibility.
Kamakazie Sith wrote:
And I'm still confused how you don't see how he could possibly have shot himself when you have people in this thread telling you they've seen such flexibility in others or themselves AND the Jonesboro PD created a video showing you the possibility.
The Joneseboro PD was fatally flawed because they had a key assumption, the gun was just out. Keep in mind this was a gun that was missed on two pat downs, as a police officer you know if you want to hide a gun from a standard issue police pat down it's not going to be in your pocket. Could he have shot himself on accident? Sure but how exactly did he get that gun out in the first place which is where I take issue with the Jonesboro PD video.
Again the suicide assumption just does not make much sense, what drives someone to kill themselves while making plans for what they are going to do things later on the next week, promise to call from jail and are not being charged with something that serious. As the point has been made to me people can commit suicide for reasons even they themselves (those that survive an attempt) seem silly in retrospect but seriously why kill himself without giving some sign?
This is not to say I'm accusing the cops of anything, I am simply unconvinced of the purposeful suicide at this point. If I fall off ladder cleaning the gutters and snap my neck will the coroner rule that a suicide too?
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Mr Bean wrote:
The Joneseboro PD was fatally flawed because they had a key assumption, the gun was just out. Keep in mind this was a gun that was missed on two pat downs, as a police officer you know if you want to hide a gun from a standard issue police pat down it's not going to be in your pocket. Could he have shot himself on accident? Sure but how exactly did he get that gun out in the first place which is where I take issue with the Jonesboro PD video.
The purpose of the video was to show that a handcuffed flexible prisoner could shoot himself in the head. Where the gun was is a mystery and probably will always be a mystery.
Again the suicide assumption just does not make much sense, what drives someone to kill themselves while making plans for what they are going to do things later on the next week, promise to call from jail and are not being charged with something that serious. As the point has been made to me people can commit suicide for reasons even they themselves (those that survive an attempt) seem silly in retrospect but seriously why kill himself without giving some sign?
Not everyone gives a sign before suiciding. I've had several co-workers commit suicide. One was not unexpected. The other took everyone close to him by complete and utter surprise. These are fair questions though but when held against all the evidence, especially the eyewitness statement, they become irrelevant. You have an eye witness that places both officers outside of the vehicle when the shot is heard.
This is not to say I'm accusing the cops of anything, I am simply unconvinced of the purposeful suicide at this point. If I fall off ladder cleaning the gutters and snap my neck will the coroner rule that a suicide too?
There are few other possibilities when you have a contact shot to the temple. The other possibility - the police shot him in the head - has been ruled out by an eye witness.
Mr Bean wrote:The Joneseboro PD was fatally flawed because they had a key assumption, the gun was just out. Keep in mind this was a gun that was missed on two pat downs, as a police officer you know if you want to hide a gun from a standard issue police pat down it's not going to be in your pocket. Could he have shot himself on accident? Sure but how exactly did he get that gun out in the first place which is where I take issue with the Jonesboro PD video.
Again the suicide assumption just does not make much sense, what drives someone to kill themselves while making plans for what they are going to do things later on the next week, promise to call from jail and are not being charged with something that serious. As the point has been made to me people can commit suicide for reasons even they themselves (those that survive an attempt) seem silly in retrospect but seriously why kill himself without giving some sign?
This is not to say I'm accusing the cops of anything, I am simply unconvinced of the purposeful suicide at this point. If I fall off ladder cleaning the gutters and snap my neck will the coroner rule that a suicide too?
This guy had multiple drugs in his system and you're still leery of this being a suicide? I understand at the beginning this incident looked bad, but c'mon, suicide is looking pretty likely given all the evidence. At first I thought an accidental shooting was likely, but according to the examiner's report...I find it unlikely to have been an accident. Was he trying to scratch his temple with his gun or something? It's ok to admit that your initial gut reaction to this story may have been wrong.
