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PeZook wrote:It would make plenty of sense if they used kitchen burners because they let them burn methane (one of the most common organic substances in the universe) to prepare food, rather than burning antimatter.

Or Hydrogen. Water can be converted into it without much difficulty if need be. There is an instance where he suggests injecting an technobabble gas to increase the power of his flames. So the devices have some type of onboard gas storage capacity.

A lot depends on their mining equipment and its power consumption, but yeah, it might work out better than magic matter rejiggling thingamajigs when it comes to total energy balance.

Isolder74 wrote:

bilateralrope wrote:Why did he use flames to cook the food ?

Because it looks good on camera.

I'm looking for an in-universe explanation. All the ones I can think of boil down to Nelix being an idiot.

bilateralrope wrote:Where did the flammable gas come from ?

Supposedly the array draws energy from the ship and converts it into a gas that then powers his burners, or something like that.

So he replicates the gas ?

As far as an in universe explanation goes we really aren't given one. Ever. They do some lip service in explaining how the burners work but never really seem to care about it. Their Techobabble explanation for the way the array functions only either raise more questions, as in so there's a replicator in there, or it's converting the plasma from the conduit into the cooking fuel.

He can get a burnable fuel without replicating the gas but does need a material to turn into that fuel.

Neelix is, of course, a raging idiot, so you shouldn't trust anything he said.

On the other hand, I don't think he's actually competent to alter a power usage log for the mess hall, so it stands to reason that what he's doing in there ends up consuming less energy than letting people have free reign with the replicators.

Isolder74 wrote:As far as an in universe explanation goes we really aren't given one. Ever. They do some lip service in explaining how the burners work but never really seem to care about it. Their Techobabble explanation for the way the array functions only either raise more questions, as in so there's a replicator in there, or it's converting the plasma from the conduit into the cooking fuel.

He can get a burnable fuel without replicating the gas but does need a material to turn into that fuel.

The "Bussard ram scoops" (IIRC) on a Federation starship take in trace hydrogen from space for use in the ship's impulse engines. Presumably some of that can be diverted for use in Neelix's stove tops at a lower power cost than operating the replicators for general food prep.

Of course that means you put more thought into it then the writers did, sad as that might be.

On a technical note, using Hydrogen as a cooking fuel is not a bad idea as it burns with decent BTU's and burns very clean.

And once burned, you can use the environmental system to recycle the combustion products (water) for other uses.

Alyeska wrote:Quark doesn't cook food. It comes from a replicator.

Actually, it's both. In "You are Cordially Invited" Bashir and O'Brien order some 'real' food, and the delay in producing it over replicated is why they don't break the fast that they have been keeping when the wedding is back on.

Ted C wrote:Neelix is, of course, a raging idiot, so you shouldn't trust anything he said.

On the other hand, I don't think he's actually competent to alter a power usage log for the mess hall, so it stands to reason that what he's doing in there ends up consuming less energy than letting people have free reign with the replicators.

Of course that is probably where the milage may vary bit comes in because he does know the universal computer code so he does know how to get into the computer to alter those logs. Now I have no doubts that if did do that, it would be done in the most incompetent way possible. So he alters the logs but doing so is obvious....how does he keep his kitchen other then word of god?

Forget about converting Hydrogen to Methane, just go to the right kind of nebula and scoop up Methane directly. There's enough of it out there. All he'd need is some way to store it for a while between stops.

Isolder74 wrote:On a technical note, using Hydrogen as a cooking fuel is not a bad idea as it burns with decent BTU's and burns very clean.

Well, yeah, except hydrogen burns with a nearly invisible flame, unlike what we see in Neelix's kitchen.

Just to throw some of my cents in...

I think they keep Nelix around because the crew likes him, even if the audience doesn't, and because it provides some distraction and a meeting place for the crew. Like the 10 Forward of the Enterprise D did. They can all sit around complaining about Nelix and how bad his food sucks.

Cooking with flame tastes completely different, and better, than cooking with electric, which I imagine would be the other option on Voyager, which is probably the only reason for the choice.

I'm sure anyone in the crew could learn to cook, but taking a vital member away from their duties for something Nelix wants to do is probably bad management.

On the contrary, having terrible food on a ship which is 80 years away from home, with a mixed federation-maquis crew and no support or even communications with friend and family is asking for a mutiny down the line.

Okayski, I dug up the DVD and made a cap, but unfortunately the episode's beginning has this annoying camera overlay (24th century = no HD video, apparently )



Still, those actually don't look like hotplates ; It seems it's just a shelf for storing ingredients.

Also he leaves the stove unattended for minutes while promoting his new show

So horrible filter +low resolution videoplayer = That looks like a hot plate.

My mistake. But how does anything he cook not end up as charcoal?

Havok wrote:Cooking with flame tastes completely different, and better, than cooking with electric, which I imagine would be the other option on Voyager, which is probably the only reason for the choice.

Why does flame produce better food ?

The only difference I can see is that gas reacts quicker when you adjust the setting and maybe finer control over what you set it to. So I won't argue that gas can produce better food if the cook knows what he's doing.

But Neelix doesn't adjust the flame. He just leaves it on too high all the time. So I doubt that he's competent enough for gas to make a difference. Meaning electric is a better choice for him, as the mess hall already had electricity when he built his kitchen but it didn't have a gas supply. So electric elements would have been much easier and safer to install.

TimothyC wrote:

Alyeska wrote:Quark doesn't cook food. It comes from a replicator.

Actually, it's both. In "You are Cordially Invited" Bashir and O'Brien order some 'real' food, and the delay in producing it over replicated is why they don't break the fast that they have been keeping when the wedding is back on.

To expand on that, Quark's ordering of foodstuffs popped up periodically. In Call to Arms, Quark smuggles in yamok sauce in the (presumable) hope to sell it to Cardassians. In The Magnificent Ferengi, Quark also obtained syrup of squill, with the hopes of onselling it in his bar.

bilateralrope wrote:Why does flame produce better food ?

Well the answer to that question is a bit complicated. For starters a flame burner heats up and changes temp levels faster. High flame to low has an immediate effect on the things being cook where an electric range is slow to drop or raise to the new setting.

As far as flame adding taste that actually depends on the fire itself. Unless you add a smoking agent a gas or propane flame is just a source of heat. Where flame has it's advantage is that it is combustion that is being used you can make use of direct charring without an intermediary vessel to get it. Most of the time you can get more precision using the flame stove.

Isolder74 wrote:

bilateralrope wrote:Why does flame produce better food ?

Well the answer to that question is a bit complicated. For starters a flame burner heats up and changes temp levels faster. High flame to low has an immediate effect on the things being cook where an electric range is slow to drop or raise to the new setting.

Wouldn't Neelix leaving the burners on too high all the time kill that advantage ?

As far as flame adding taste that actually depends on the fire itself. Unless you add a smoking agent a gas or propane flame is just a source of heat. Where flame has it's advantage is that it is combustion that is being used you can make use of direct charring without an intermediary vessel to get it. Most of the time you can get more precision using the flame stove.

I'm guessing that this is only an option if there is nothing between the flame and the food. If the food is in a pot, then the flame is just a heat source even if there is a smoking agent in it. Unless Neelix smokes up the entire mess hall*.

*Which would probably require him disabling parts of life support to prevent it cleaning the air.

The point I'm trying to make is that gas wouldn't allow Neelix to produce better food. Which makes gas a poor choice as, unless Voyager is already collecting the gas in quantities in excess of what they normally use, electric seems the safer and more energy efficient choice.

Which brings us to a question of Voyagers sewage system: Would there be enough methane (or other flammable gasses) produced by the crew to fuel the burners ?
Because, if replicators are less energy efficient than Neelix's cooking, then separating the methane off for him to use is probably more efficient than recycling it into replicator stock.

Well only an idiot would build a smoke house/cooker in an enclosed space!

Edit: Wait we are talking about Neelix......

One of the things I was always curious about was why the kitchen/mess hall which was apparently the captains dinning room or something was even needed on a ship that small. Voyager was like the equivalent of a destroyer, it would make more sense on larger ships that might do diplomatic and first contact stuff.

Could you even feed a 140 person crew out of a kitchen and mess hall that small?

Actually yeah, you could do it just fine, but not with a single cook

At 140 people (probably less ; The Voyager had a crew of 141, but it suffered casualties, although the Maquis joined up later...let's assume 140) if they work in three even watches, that's 45 people or so per watch. So, stagger the meals to have two messes of 20 people and it's entirely doable - Uboats fed 40 people off a single gas burner (two on Type IXs). Sailing ships typically only had a single fireplace to prepare food for hundreds of sailors.

Neelix would definitely need an assistant to clean up the dishes though, and of course someone to man the kitchen when he has to do things like, well, sleep.

Especially since some people will use their repliactor rations from time to time instead of eating Nellix's food.

And no, the mess was there since the pilot episode (in that part where Parris complaims about replicated tomato soup)

Yeah, the mess was there, but instead of a kitchen, there was a wall of replicators. Neelix took it on his own to rip those out and create his kitchen out of that wall and the captain's dining room.

It says alot when someone who had been eating prison food complains about the replicated soup.