Dick Perry and Rethugs Gearing Up For Round Two

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Re: Dick Perry and Rethugs Gearing Up For Round Two

Post by Metahive »

Yep, someone actually took a stand for his convictions and didn't follow the usual democratic route of asking "how much do you want me to bend over, Mr. Republican". Is lauding this effort also disgusting and tiresome to you, Simon?
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Re: Dick Perry and Rethugs Gearing Up For Round Two

Post by Tiriol »

What the fuck is your problem? Simon_Jester and others have not said that they despise the Democrat politician's actions, they say that they find several posters' instant name-calling and calls for violence and general inability to deal with opposition in any mature manner disgusting. If you can't see it and/or try to drag some strawman out and disguise that disgust into something "YOU HATE ACTUAL LIBERTY, GOLDEN MEANS FALLACY!" you are one huge dick of an idiot.

For the record, I applaud that the Democrats had the spine and the endurance to filibuster the proposal. I also hope that they can keep on doing it if the Republicans once again bring it up. Even moreso I hope that their attitude would spread nation-wide.
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Re: Dick Perry and Rethugs Gearing Up For Round Two

Post by Metahive »

Calls for violence? This is Broomstick's post that started this whole kerfluffle:
Broomstick wrote:What a condescending piece of shit Perry is - how dare that uppity bitch draw a different conclusion than I have! You lost, asshole, man up and deal with it.

It's like what I heard on the news last night about some people in California vowing to take the gay marriage issue to the Supreme Court. Uh, guys, that's just what happened this week. And you lost. Get the fuck over it already.

Really, the conservatards are very poor losers.
Yeah, she's scoffing at the social regressives, but I see no calls for violence in there! Are we making shit up wholesale now?
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Re: Dick Perry and Rethugs Gearing Up For Round Two

Post by Alyrium Denryle »

I look around here, and we just take for granted that the system is rigged, that the opposition derives its strength through a combination of cheating and exploiting the idiocy of the people around it, and that democracy is a decreasingly respectable institution because it keeps not giving us what we want. Even given that we're right in every detail of what we want and believe, the mindset is still far from unique to the right. And still dangerous because it leads to a lack of perspective; just ask Jub a gun control question if you don't believe me.
I will point out that in Texas, the elections are in fact gerrymandered in such a way that the elections are basically rigged. You know Austin? The state capitol and the Gay Mecca of a Bohemian paradise in which I actually feel at home? You know how many representatives in the state house it gets from the democratic party? Two, last I checked. With its HUGE population. The city is cut into electoral pie slices, swamped by rural hinterland. The reps it gets from the majority party within the city are in fact shared between houston and san antonio.

That said.
If something like universal health care had been defeated under similar circumstances, would you insist that people "man up" and deal with it?
It depends. If Universal Healthcare was defeated by an actual filibuster like this was, as opposed to a US Senate Fake Filibuster, then yeah. Back in the day, in order to filibuster, you and your allies had to be able to hold the floor continuously. That is what Wendy Davis did. That is not what happens in the US Senate, where the opposition simply declares with no effort required the intent to filibuster.

Had the GOP blocked Universal Healthcare in the way that requires effort, I would be OK with it.
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Re: Dick Perry and Rethugs Gearing Up For Round Two

Post by Metahive »

I'm sorry, but this was started by Gandalf being upset about Broomstick calling the social regressives sore losers with Simon chiming in that this behaviour makes both look equally bad. How's that not an appeal to moderation?
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Re: Dick Perry and Rethugs Gearing Up For Round Two

Post by Gandalf »

Alyrium Denryle wrote:It depends. If Universal Healthcare was defeated by an actual filibuster like this was, as opposed to a US Senate Fake Filibuster, then yeah. Back in the day, in order to filibuster, you and your allies had to be able to hold the floor continuously. That is what Wendy Davis did. That is not what happens in the US Senate, where the opposition simply declares with no effort required the intent to filibuster.

Had the GOP blocked Universal Healthcare in the way that requires effort, I would be OK with it.
That's roughly what I meant. Imagine someone had actually filibustered for long enough and defeated universal healthcare. Upon reintroduction of the bill, would Broomstick (or whoever) be calling them sore losers who need to man up?
Metahive wrote:I'm sorry, but this was started by Gandalf being upset about Broomstick calling the social regressives sore losers with Simon chiming in that this behaviour makes both look equally bad. How's that not an appeal to moderation?
You mistake my being puzzled for being upset. If what they're doing is legal, then shouldn't one's emotions be directed towards the system as opposed to its partisan participants?
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Re: Dick Perry and Rethugs Gearing Up For Round Two

Post by Metahive »

OK, it looks like I misunderstood the issue. I apologize for that.
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Re: Dick Perry and Rethugs Gearing Up For Round Two

Post by Simon_Jester »

Flagg wrote:I'd also like to point out that this was an actual filibuster, where someone stood and talked on topic for 11 hours, not the bullshit republican filibuster where they just say "yeah, we're gonna filibuster" and then the bill is dead.
Yeah. That's pretty damn classy. It's a good use of some of the mechanisms of check and balance built into democracy, as opposed to an irresponsible use like just pretending you're going to filibuster.

I'm glad those mechanisms exist, or at least that they are available to be used responsibly, even if I wish they were harder to use irresponsibly.
Metahive wrote:
Simon_Jester wrote:Which is obviously a uniquely American vice?
Would it make you sleep easier if it was not? Would it mean you could dismiss it as a weak spot simply because you're in "good" company? That's lazy.
No. It's simply that you're so far into chemical-imbalance territory that you wouldn't know a Golden Mean fallacy if it walked up to you and hit you over the head. And your habit of calling all bad things "American" just makes it more obvious.
The fact that I find you personally tiresome and disgusting for the way you approach politics has nothing to do with my actual political views.
If you're done hurling shit at me, you can tell me what's exactly so tiresome and disgusting about the way I approach politics.
It's not that you're wrong about issues, if we turn your views into an itemized checklist; it's that you're so busy being angry at people for what country they come from that you don't bother to listen.

When someone says something like "look at yourself, you're acting like a raving loony who'd be actively dangerous in public office," and you reply "textbook logical fallacy, that's an ad hominem!" you are doing political discussion wrong.
Alyrium Denryle wrote:
I look around here, and we just take for granted that the system is rigged, that the opposition derives its strength through a combination of cheating and exploiting the idiocy of the people around it, and that democracy is a decreasingly respectable institution because it keeps not giving us what we want. Even given that we're right in every detail of what we want and believe, the mindset is still far from unique to the right. And still dangerous because it leads to a lack of perspective; just ask Jub a gun control question if you don't believe me.
I will point out that in Texas, the elections are in fact gerrymandered in such a way that the elections are basically rigged...
You can look up my positions on gerrymandering.

In the context of Texas legislature being rigged to give demented hicks a disproportionate number of votes, I agree that this is a real problem, and without it something like SB5 probably wouldn't have been possible... although even WITH it, the bill still has a 30-40% approval rating and the current legislature apparently had to promise not to do anything like it just to win the last election.

What bugs me is the sheer contempt for the system that makes people want to overthrow it every time it delivers an undesired result- especially when that desire to overthrow is coming from a majority, who already have so much initiative and power to set the agenda.

"But we didn't get everything we want, so it must be rigged against us!" The Republican Party as a whole does this in the US all the time; certain particular people on the left who are immature and obnoxious and have no perspective do it too.

That is my position.
If something like universal health care had been defeated under similar circumstances, would you insist that people "man up" and deal with it?
It depends. If Universal Healthcare was defeated by an actual filibuster like this was, as opposed to a US Senate Fake Filibuster, then yeah. Back in the day, in order to filibuster, you and your allies had to be able to hold the floor continuously. That is what Wendy Davis did. That is not what happens in the US Senate, where the opposition simply declares with no effort required the intent to filibuster.

Had the GOP blocked Universal Healthcare in the way that requires effort, I would be OK with it.
That's kind of my point. A minority opposition has certain legitimate means to prevent certain legislation from passing. There are good reasons for this- it is very hard to create a functional legal regime if it changes every time 51% of the legislature (let alone the population) feels like making a change.

It is good that there be mechanisms to put a little inertia into the process. Senator Davis used such mechanisms, to her credit. The Texas Republicans naturally flip out and start screaming about this HORRIBLE INJUSTICE THAT WILL NOT STAND... because they cannot deal with the idea of a legitimate opposition. In their minds, if they won, they should have won all the marbles, dammit!

I find that attitude revolting, and it annoys me that I find it all over the place- "we won, so we should get everything we want." That's not how adulthood works, let alone politics.
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Re: Dick Perry and Rethugs Gearing Up For Round Two

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Gandalf wrote:That's roughly what I meant. Imagine someone had actually filibustered for long enough and defeated universal healthcare. Upon reintroduction of the bill, would Broomstick (or whoever) be calling them sore losers who need to man up?
It's not the reintroduction of the bill that makes them sore losers. It's them calling "unfair!" when the opposition uses a legitimate and legal tactic. It's scolding a fellow legislator in a patronizing manner for having a different world view, basically saying "you didn't learn the proper lesson from your own experience", and so on.
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Re: Dick Perry and Rethugs Gearing Up For Round Two

Post by Patroklos »

You guys seem to be under the impression that Davis prevented the vote with her filibuster. This is not the case. Her filibuster failed as she was removed by legislative rules before the session expired though she obviously delayed the vote. What actually kept the vote from counting was the pro-choice crowd observing errupting that drowned out the proceedings at the last moments and made the process impossible to accomplish.

http://www.dallasnews.com/news/politics ... tburst.ece

Filibustering is not cheating. It is not democracy, however, to have your mob obstruct a legislature. At the same time it was the LT Govenor's job to control said observers and he failed.
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Re: Dick Perry and Rethugs Gearing Up For Round Two

Post by Alyrium Denryle »

Patroklos wrote:You guys seem to be under the impression that Davis prevented the vote with her filibuster. This is not the case. Her filibuster failed as she was removed by legislative rules before the session expired though she obviously delayed the vote. What actually kept the vote from counting was the pro-choice crowd observing errupting that drowned out the proceedings at the last moments and made the process impossible to accomplish.

http://www.dallasnews.com/news/politics ... tburst.ece

Filibustering is not cheating. It is not democracy, however, to have your mob obstruct a legislature. At the same time it was the LT Govenor's job to control said observers and he failed.
For the sake of full disclosure, they engaged in mental gymnastics to use those procedural rules. Namely, it was considered nongermane to talk about the burden the proposed rule would place on women seeking abortion, in conjunction with the other restrictions passed in recent years.
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Re: Dick Perry and Rethugs Gearing Up For Round Two

Post by Simon_Jester »

Alyrium Denryle wrote:
Patroklos wrote:You guys seem to be under the impression that Davis prevented the vote with her filibuster. This is not the case. Her filibuster failed as she was removed by legislative rules before the session expired though she obviously delayed the vote. What actually kept the vote from counting was the pro-choice crowd observing errupting that drowned out the proceedings at the last moments and made the process impossible to accomplish.

http://www.dallasnews.com/news/politics ... tburst.ece

Filibustering is not cheating. It is not democracy, however, to have your mob obstruct a legislature. At the same time it was the LT Govenor's job to control said observers and he failed.
For the sake of full disclosure, they engaged in mental gymnastics to use those procedural rules. Namely, it was considered nongermane to talk about the burden the proposed rule would place on women seeking abortion, in conjunction with the other restrictions passed in recent years.
So, to extend Patroklos's argument:

It is not democracy to have your mob obstruct a legislature. Nor is it democracy to have your legislature willfully haul one of its own members off the floor because the legislature really really really wants to get on with a vote, when the parliamentary rules say that they can't do that.

In fact, that second thing is exactly the sort of thing that makes mobs get all angry and obstructionist. No one should be surprised that when they break the rules of democracy and legislative processes, their opponents start looking for ways to circumvent the rules. It may be right or wrong for them to do that, but it's not a surprise unless you're a fool.
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Re: Dick Perry and Rethugs Gearing Up For Round Two

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If you have a specific problem with the rules enforced I would love to hear about them, the article simply says they strictly enforced them. I am all ears.

The fact remains that Davis did not stop the vote, and a decidely undemocratic act by the observers did.
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Re: Dick Perry and Rethugs Gearing Up For Round Two

Post by Grandmaster Jogurt »

If they were strictly applying them, the rules technically only applied to men. :P

Instead they were interpreting the rules however which way they needed to get the results they wanted, thus the infractions she got for talking about abortion-related issues not being "on topic" on a debate about abortion, or marking her for getting her back brace adjusted when that didn't go against any of the rules.
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Re: Dick Perry and Rethugs Gearing Up For Round Two

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Patroklos wrote:The fact remains that Davis did not stop the vote, and a decidely undemocratic act by the observers did.
Of course Davis stopped the vote: she was on her feet for twelve hours. That the observers in part prevented the vote going through on time is certainly true, but that was only only possible because of Davis' herculean filibuster.
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Re: Dick Perry and Rethugs Gearing Up For Round Two

Post by Highlord Laan »

Patroklos wrote:You guys seem to be under the impression that Davis prevented the vote with her filibuster. This is not the case. Her filibuster failed as she was removed by legislative rules before the session expired though she obviously delayed the vote. What actually kept the vote from counting was the pro-choice crowd observing errupting that drowned out the proceedings at the last moments and made the process impossible to accomplish.

http://www.dallasnews.com/news/politics ... tburst.ece

Filibustering is not cheating. It is not democracy, however, to have your mob obstruct a legislature. At the same time it was the LT Govenor's job to control said observers and he failed.
I guess repubs were against "rule of the people" before they were for it. All fine and dandy to go to the mob when they can spin, gerrymander, lie and coerce their way to getting what they want, but when it goes against them, out come the screams of it not being democracy. They started down the path of direct democracy, they can fucking well choke on it with the rest of the system. One step closer to the entire system collapsing in on itself. Good.

And yes, I mean that. I stopped thinking that this country was worth saving as a whole years ago.
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Re: Dick Perry and Rethugs Gearing Up For Round Two

Post by Alyrium Denryle »

Patroklos wrote:If you have a specific problem with the rules enforced I would love to hear about them, the article simply says they strictly enforced them. I am all ears.

The fact remains that Davis did not stop the vote, and a decidely undemocratic act by the observers did.
It is not the rules enforced. It was the manner in which they were enforced. Namely, ruling that a topic of argument that was by definition germane to the bill in question (the regulatory burden it places on women) was not germane. In the arguments involving those procedural rules, they also pointedly did not give the floor to democratic senators.

What they did was no better than what the AZ legislature did in 2008, when they ended a filibuster (on the vote to send a gay marriage ban to plebiscite) by cutting off the microphone and recognizing someone else.

I dont care what the fuck the bill is. That sort of parliamentary behavior is not acceptable, and a mob of people is perfectly justified in disrupting an illegal proceeding. Shit, the motherfuckers even tried to change the timestamp on the vote, but got caught doing it. It is not undemocratic for the people themselves to stop legislation that is voted on in violation of the rules of the social contract to which they have agreed both they and their representatives shall be bound. It is in fact, the opposite.

Of course, that presumes the Texas legislature represents its people, which, I might add, it does not. Given the amount of gerrymandering.
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Re: Dick Perry and Rethugs Gearing Up For Round Two

Post by Flagg »

I think the thing most getting lost in this is the fact that the Democrats were also filibustering patently unconstitutional laws that are going to waste millions in tax dollars for Texas in legal fees.
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Re: Dick Perry and Rethugs Gearing Up For Round Two

Post by Highlord Laan »

http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/07 ... -next?lite

Well, the neanderthals made up some more rules on the fly and took the next step in their war on women. I'm not surprised, just annoyed. Not that it passed, but that the building the thugs use to make texas a theocracy wasn't set ablaze mid session with the doors barred.
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Re: Dick Perry and Rethugs Gearing Up For Round Two

Post by The Romulan Republic »

So you think the way to deal with bad politicians is to burn them to death?

In that case, why not abolish elections and courts and laws? You've clearly given up on niceties like democracy and the rule of law.

Well, there is the side effect of turning America into a shit hole like Syria and Somalia.
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Re: Dick Perry and Rethugs Gearing Up For Round Two

Post by Flagg »

The Romulan Republic wrote:So you think the way to deal with bad politicians is to burn them to death?

In that case, why not abolish elections and courts and laws? You've clearly given up on niceties like democracy and the rule of law.

Well, there is the side effect of turning America into a shit hole like Syria and Somalia.
Umm obvious hyperbole is obvious?
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Re: Dick Perry and Rethugs Gearing Up For Round Two

Post by The Romulan Republic »

It's not the only time he's said something like that. I don't know if he's serious (though it's an offensive and irresponsible thing to say in any case). There are a lot of people who sincerely believe such things.
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Re: Dick Perry and Rethugs Gearing Up For Round Two

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It's par for the course with Laan.
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Re: Dick Perry and Rethugs Gearing Up For Round Two

Post by Highlord Laan »

The Romulan Republic wrote:You've clearly given up on niceties like democracy and the rule of law.
There was very little in Perry's latest stunt that was democratic. There's very little in every level of government that's democratic anymore. Unless the definition of democracy has changed to "rule of the most wealthy and corrupt." Hell, the only reason the knuckle draggers in Texas are able to pull this shit is because they made up some new rules first. Or just flat out ignore the laws anyway, since its not like any of the courts populated by their buddies will call them on it. And as I said before in another thread, I gave up on thinking this country was worth saving a long time ago. The point it needed knocking down and something else built on the rubble is decades passed.
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Re: Dick Perry and Rethugs Gearing Up For Round Two

Post by The Romulan Republic »

Perry's an asshole, but it does not follow that his opponents should be even more disgusting and undemocratic.

Despite America's flaws, I have no desire for it to be reduced to anarchy or civil war. That would be far worse than the pitiful status quo. Something better might be created eventually, but not before many people, including innocent people, had been killed. And probably not before a series of revolutions that create a new bad government. Revolutionary groups aren't usually benevolent.
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