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Adamskywalker007 wrote:This is not to mention the issue with Ashoka, regardless of how her character turned out, the concept of Anakin having a padawan during the Clone Wars completely flies in the face of how he was portrayed in ROTS. Why would the Jedi Council give him a padawan when he was recently promoted to knight himself? Especially given that they barely trusted him, hence why he and Obi-Wan still operated together the overwhelming majority of the time. Is this not the same Anakin who was only promoted to the Council because of Palpatine?

Speaking of her. Do we ever find out what happened to her after the whole thing. Did the Empire get her after 66?

Adamskywalker007 wrote:Besides that, cloning Jedi also destroys what makes them special, as well as would require that Force affinity is a genetic trait, something that has several issues from an evolutionary standpoint.

"The Force is strong in my family." - Luke Skywalker, Return of the Jedi

For that matter, Vader's "I am your father" essentially establishes a hereditary component to the Force. Depending on when exactly you want to say Lucas made the Luke + Leia = siblings decision, Yoda's "There is another" and Leia being the one to hear Luke call out established this as well (though obviously that would make his decision to allow their earlier kissing scene incredibly awkward, but whatever). Unless you want to believe it was just the mother father of all coincidences that this particular Father/Son duo were incredibly powerful Force users.

Like it or not, hereditary affinity for the Force is Star Wars. Even back to ANH when we discovered Luke's real father was a Jedi and gave him his father's lightsaber, then offering to train him in the ways of the Force. It was there from the very beginning.

Purple wrote:

Adamskywalker007 wrote:This is not to mention the issue with Ashoka, regardless of how her character turned out, the concept of Anakin having a padawan during the Clone Wars completely flies in the face of how he was portrayed in ROTS. Why would the Jedi Council give him a padawan when he was recently promoted to knight himself? Especially given that they barely trusted him, hence why he and Obi-Wan still operated together the overwhelming majority of the time. Is this not the same Anakin who was only promoted to the Council because of Palpatine?

Speaking of her. Do we ever find out what happened to her after the whole thing. Did the Empire get her after 66?

We don't know yet, it's pure speculation at this point.

Adamskywalker007 wrote:If it wasn't clear enough, I was meaning that ROTS actually showed the proper scale of galactic war for the most part, while the series did not.

My key problem with the series is that nothing of consequence can happen as we already know how it ends. While this is obviously also true with any other part of the EU that takes place between movies, this one has the problem of being so much longer than any of those as well as the issue that all of the truly important events already happened in the movies.

As for the darker episodes, I never watched the series beyond the second season or so and thus almost all of what I saw was the lighter and fluffier episodes. Including not one, but two Jar Jar centric episodes. I'd heard that some of the later seasons are considered better and much darker, which seemed odd to me given that this series was always marketed towards kids.

In what I saw there were several issues that bothered me in terms of their connection to ROTS. The biggest one was that Obi-Wan and Grievous kept fighting in various episodes. Why would the Jedi Council trust him to kill Grievous this time when they had already locked lightsabers four times, and Grievous never failed to escape*? If you continue trying the same strategy, one is either insane or is trying to lose.

This is not to mention the issue with Ashoka, regardless of how her character turned out, the concept of Anakin having a padawan during the Clone Wars completely flies in the face of how he was portrayed in ROTS. Why would the Jedi Council give him a padawan when he was recently promoted to knight himself? Especially given that they barely trusted him, hence why he and Obi-Wan still operated together the overwhelming majority of the time. Is this not the same Anakin who was only promoted to the Council because of Palpatine?

* In the episodes: Destroy Malvolence, Grevious Intrigue, The Deserter, and Arc Troopers.

Some of the Clone wars material from 2002 on was actually okay. The siege of jabiim was a dark and depressing arc that showed darkness, death, destruction and hopelessness and actually left room open for a sequel (which occurred when luke visits jabiim and is confronted with part of his dad's legacy.) The stories involving Asaaj Ventress's past was also well done, to the point where they actually kept it mostly intact in the clone wars show. Shatterpoint was awesome too.

That's another thing; in the cartoons before the movie grievous was so much more badass. I could actually think "holy shit jedi are going to die." Anakin's adventures on Neelvan, and his fight with durge over maramere were good ways of foreshadowing his fall to the dark side (durge is a monster who has inflicted countless atrocities, as were the scientists on neelvaan. as such anakin cutting loose on them could be seen as in character without being sociopathic. As far as he see's it he's just reacting to injustice.)

Adamskywalker007 wrote:If it wasn't clear enough, I was meaning that ROTS actually showed the proper scale of galactic war for the most part, while the series did not.

The only large battles I recall in Sith was the Battle of Coruscant and Kashyyk and maybe the invasion of Utapau to an extent. I don't recall any space battles on the scale anywhere close to Coruscant (though will admit my knowledge of TCW series is patchy) but there were episodes with battles that about matched the size of the aforementioned battles. But again, TCW was mostly trying to keep things tight. Its a bit like a war documentary or drama focusing on a small unit of troops. Think like Band of Brothers, just going by that alone WWII is one company of troops fighting the whole of the Nazi's with some help by some less important units while some less important fighting goes on around them. TCW is much the same, Anakin and Co fighting the whole of the Confeddies with some help by some less important Jedi and Clone units while some less important fighting goes on around them.

Adamskywalker007 wrote:My key problem with the series is that nothing of consequence can happen as we already know how it ends. While this is obviously also true with any other part of the EU that takes place between movies, this one has the problem of being so much longer than any of those as well as the issue that all of the truly important events already happened in the movies.

This is true and one of the many reasons why I haven't been able to work up enough of a fuck to really give Space Al Qaeda much attention. We already know whats going to happen as Ep4 has been out for awhile now, these characters are unimportant enough that Mando Rainbow Dash and FPJ aren't flying beside Luke to shoot the DS or flying Snowspeeders on Hoth and won't win against the Empire no matter how incredibly dumb the show makes the Imps out to be.

TCW series suffers the same problem. Episode 3 is out. We know what happens to pretty much every character we give a shit about but Asoka and we damn sure know she ain't going to settle down with Anakin because we already saw him in bed with Natalie Portman in Episode 3 and Luke and Leia don't have horns. Theres little chance she is going to have a happy ending at all considering her old master becomes the meanest, baddest, and blackest Jedi hunter in the galaxy and he ain't going to let his old student fuck about the galaxy.

The pre-Episode 3 Clone Wars material had it easier. Sure we know mostly what was going to happen but still there was plenty of unknowns. In the 3 years leading towards Episode 3 the Clone Wars were pretty much happening in real time, it was a bit exciting, we don't know who is really going to survive from the Prequels but the people we saw in Ep4 and beyond which wasn't too many.

TCW we already know, we know all the fighting and planning hold no drama because barring some canon fuckery (such as with Barriss Offee) we know how everything is going to turn out for everyone and everything save maybe Rex and Asoka.

As for Anakin having a padawan, I didn't mind that too much considering Obi got a padawan of his own only shortly after being a padawan himself. Obi-Wan would have still been working with Anakin because they had a strong bond, probably worked damn well together, and having a recently promoted Knight close to his Master is probably something the Jedi prefer to do so the Master can watch his former student and offer advice and guidance without still playing full on teacher. Episode 3 implies when Anakin is whining about them being broken up they are no longer master and student but more partners and damned effective ones at that. It would make sense for Anakin to be given someone to train. Hell I'm surprised there wasn't another student hanging around Anakin after Asoka........left. I guess there either wasn't one available at the time (lucky for them) or they don't like saddling a student on a Knight who had just lost one for whatever reason fairly recently as i think was the case with Asoka, she left only short before Ep3.

RogueIce wrote: "The Force is strong in my family." - Luke Skywalker, Return of the Jedi

For that matter, Vader's "I am your father" essentially establishes a hereditary component to the Force. Depending on when exactly you want to say Lucas made the Luke + Leia = siblings decision, Yoda's "There is another" and Leia being the one to hear Luke call out established this as well (though obviously that would make his decision to allow their earlier kissing scene incredibly awkward, but whatever). Unless you want to believe it was just the mother father of all coincidences that this particular Father/Son duo were incredibly powerful Force users.

Like it or not, hereditary affinity for the Force is Star Wars. Even back to ANH when we discovered Luke's real father was a Jedi and gave him his father's lightsaber, then offering to train him in the ways of the Force. It was there from the very beginning.

A sample size of one is hardely enough to make conclusions about the nature of Force sensitivity. The fact that it passed from Anakin to his offspring doesn't require that it be a genetic trait. AIDS can pass from parents to children, does that make it hereditary?

The fundamental problem is that if Force powers are genetic, they should be present in nearly every species in the galaxy, given the evolutionary advantages they grant. At the very least, there should be certain species that are and aren't Force sensiitive. Why do we see every species from Rodians to Gungans with Force sensitive members? Besides this, if they are genetic, why would the Jedi forbid their order from reproducing? That would be an excellent way to go extinct. If it is genetic, why doesn't DNA testing prove Force sensitivity? Why do they have to test for midichlorians instead?

Joun_Lord wrote:The only large battles I recall in Sith was the Battle of Coruscant and Kashyyk and maybe the invasion of Utapau to an extent. I don't recall any space battles on the scale anywhere close to Coruscant (though will admit my knowledge of TCW series is patchy) but there were episodes with battles that about matched the size of the aforementioned battles. But again, TCW was mostly trying to keep things tight. Its a bit like a war documentary or drama focusing on a small unit of troops. Think like Band of Brothers, just going by that alone WWII is one company of troops fighting the whole of the Nazi's with some help by some less important units while some less important fighting goes on around them. TCW is much the same, Anakin and Co fighting the whole of the Confeddies with some help by some less important Jedi and Clone units while some less important fighting goes on around them.

While something like Band of Brothers showed a small piece of the story, there were elements that gave a proper sense of scale for one front of World War 2, like the airborne landings on D-day. However invading Christophsis alone should have been a larger undertaking than D-day as it has a population of 35 billion.

Joun_Lord wrote:The pre-Episode 3 Clone Wars material had it easier. Sure we know mostly what was going to happen but still there was plenty of unknowns. In the 3 years leading towards Episode 3 the Clone Wars were pretty much happening in real time, it was a bit exciting, we don't know who is really going to survive from the Prequels but the people we saw in Ep4 and beyond which wasn't too many.

TCW we already know, we know all the fighting and planning hold no drama because barring some canon fuckery (such as with Barriss Offee) we know how everything is going to turn out for everyone and everything save maybe Rex and Asoka.

In a way it was too bad they didn't simply ignore the existing continuity earlier and simply make up whatever they wanted. With regard to changing canon, it also killed Adi Galia and Even Piell differently than in earlier stories. Obviously now, the Clone Wars series is canon regardless, while the earlier stories are not. I just hope that the new movies ignore it and Rebels regardless of canon status. I can't see why they would bother themselves with references to the cartoons in films that would be aiming for a larger target audience than the few million that watched the cartoons. This is one of the issues with any references beyond the existing movies for something that needs to draw in casual viewers while still appeasing fans.

Adamskywalker007 wrote:A sample size of one is hardely enough to make conclusions about the nature of Force sensitivity. The fact that it passed from Anakin to his offspring doesn't require that it be a genetic trait. AIDS can pass from parents to children, does that make it hereditary?

The fundamental problem is that if Force powers are genetic, they should be present in nearly every species in the galaxy, given the evolutionary advantages they grant. At the very least, there should be certain species that are and aren't Force sensiitive. Why do we see every species from Rodians to Gungans with Force sensitive members? Besides this, if they are genetic, why would the Jedi forbid their order from reproducing? That would be an excellent way to go extinct. If it is genetic, why doesn't DNA testing prove Force sensitivity? Why do they have to test for midichlorians instead?

Space Magic, I guess. I mean midichlorians certainly raised plenty of issues, like why don't people inject themselves with them, etc. But if a midichlorian count can indicate Force sensitivity, then why not being cloned? Presumably whatever brought about the original's sufficiently high midichlorian counts would still be present in an exact clone, right?

Of course at the same time "the Force" apparently immaculately conceived Anakin Skywalker and Palpatine talked about using it to create life, so we're right back to Space Magic. Maybe it was just the "will of the Force" for Joruus C'boath to have the same Force sensitivity as Jorus C'boath because the Lord Force works in mysterious ways.

Adamskywalker007 wrote: In a way it was too bad they didn't simply ignore the existing continuity earlier and simply make up whatever they wanted.

Thats technically what they did atleast in regards to the EU. Sure they referenced earlier shit but for the most part they did as the new movies are doing and said fuck the EU.

One of the most obvious ones were the treatment of clones and the Mandalorians. In the books defective clones were supposed to be destroyed, failed clones killed, in the series a horribly fucked up (but still pretty damn awesome but sad) clone is being used a janitor and that was said to be the destination of some clones who were about ready to fail trooper training.

The Mandalorians in the books are these Klingon warrior rip-offs living on a jungle planet with no real cities or anything, like a space age viking world. In TCW the Mandos have been pacifists for about a thousand years, their planet is a bombed out wasteland and they all live in massive and incredibly visually amazing cube cities.

I'm sure there are others, like the deaths of the two Jedi you mentioned, and honestly I think the series is better for not really being beholden to what came before it except the movies much like how the Sequel Trilogy is doing. It of course raised its own problems as I mentioned earlier, you know Obi was going to survive, Anakin was going to remain un-BBQed for awhile and Ani and Asoka were never going to knock boots no matter how much the shippers wanted them to. But just completely allowing it to do its own thang would have confused fans and probably made the show quite terrible.

Adamskywalker007 wrote:The fundamental problem is that if Force powers are genetic, they should be present in nearly every species in the galaxy, given the evolutionary advantages they grant.

I wouldn't say it's so clear cut that it actually does provide an evolutionary advantage. It provides an increase in personal power, sure, but it also makes you more vulnerable to the influence of the dark side, and pulling an Anakin and strangling the mother of your unborn children is not a good way to pass on your genes.

Hell, this is precisely why the Rule of Two exists: because being force sensitive can make you a mortal threat to those closest to you.

Grumman wrote:Hell, this is precisely why the Rule of Two exists: because being force sensitive can make you a mortal threat to those closest to you.

The Rule of Two was established to stop the infighting the Sith were suffering from. Or rather to limit it to a single person trying to kill the Master.

Not because force sensitivity makes someone a mortal threat... that's actually something the Sith might want.

As a genetic trait force sensitivity is actually quite a boon.

Strangle a dangerous animal when it tries to eat you?
Make someone believe the lies you told with a force suggestion?
The pregocnition alone might save your life.

Does force sensitivity provide an advantage at every step of the way to force sensitivity ?

Maybe the early steps towards force sensitivity come with some disadvantages. For example, a burst of precognition that doesn't provide any useful information*, but comes as a distraction at the wrong moment. Too many of those and evolution will select against weak force sensitivity.

*Maybe it doesn't have enough detail. Maybe the creature receiving the burst isn't smart enough to understand it.

If it is genetic, why doesn't DNA testing prove Force sensitivity? Why do they have to test for midichlorians instead?

Maybe the midichlorian test is simpler to perform. Possibly because the midichlorians are the same in all species, while a genetic test has to work on various species. Each with a DNA equivalent that is different, meaning a genetic test has to look for a different thing in each species.

RogueIce wrote:Space Magic, I guess. I mean midichlorians certainly raised plenty of issues, like why don't people inject themselves with them, etc. But if a midichlorian count can indicate Force sensitivity, then why not being cloned? Presumably whatever brought about the original's sufficiently high midichlorian counts would still be present in an exact clone, right?

This is only if midichlorian counts are fixed at birth and never change. If they are influence by training and skill, then it would make sense that without those a clone would not necessarily have it. As for the injection question, given that midichlorians were stated to live inside the cells of their hosts, how would one inject them? It would require injecting transplanted cells, which would obviously lead to rejection problems. Not to mention that it would have issues that the person's native blood would slowly replace it. This would also be neatly resolved if midichlorians are a consequence and not a cause of Force abilities.

RogueIce wrote: Of course at the same time "the Force" apparently immaculately conceived Anakin Skywalker and Palpatine talked about using it to create life, so we're right back to Space Magic. Maybe it was just the "will of the Force" for Joruus C'boath to have the same Force sensitivity as Jorus C'boath because the Lord Force works in mysterious ways.

One would also assume that cloning Jedi would negatively affect the balance of the Force, through whatever mechanism that uses. As for Anakin obviously his creation was a consequence of Plagius and his work as a sorcerer of the Force. Whether it was by the Force itself or Plagueis himself is irrelevant. There is a physical cause, regardless of whether we understand the mechanism. It doesn't require a sentient Force.

Grumman wrote:I wouldn't say it's so clear cut that it actually does provide an evolutionary advantage. It provides an increase in personal power, sure, but it also makes you more vulnerable to the influence of the dark side, and pulling an Anakin and strangling the mother of your unborn children is not a good way to pass on your genes.

How common would that be as opposed to the advantage? In reality we see things like Sickle Cell Disease, which morphs blood in such a way that it is less susceptible to malaria but at a reduction in the ability to carry oxygen. It survives because it grants an evolutionary advantage in some geographic areas as malaria is common enough that the possibility of one's children dying from Sickle Cell Disease is less than that of them dying from malaria.

Though it depends on how frequent falling to the Dark Side would really be. It could be possible that this is why the Jedi were originally created as an order, to suppress Force affinity within the population while also exploiting it. The fact that Jedi are so restrictive might be as a result of a time when Force powers were more prevalent. I will admit this is an interesting concept as to why Force abilities are so rare, that the risk of falling to the Dark Side is strong enough that it confers an evolutionary disadvantage.

Grumman wrote:Hell, this is precisely why the Rule of Two exists: because being force sensitive can make you a mortal threat to those closest to you.

The Rule of Two has nothing to do with protecting others. Why would SIth care about such a thing? The Rule of Two was created to reduce the infighting, as when Malak unsurped Revan from the throne and weakened the Sith. The Brotherhood of Darkness was another failed attempt, weakening the Sith to the point that they were little more than Jedi with red lightsabers. Bane created the Rule of Two because he wanted the Sith master to always be the most powerful possible. This is not the case if three apprentices gang up on and kill the master, especially if only the weakest apprentice survives.

bilateralrope wrote:Does force sensitivity provide an advantage at every step of the way to force sensitivity ?

Maybe the early steps towards force sensitivity come with some disadvantages. For example, a burst of precognition that doesn't provide any useful information*, but comes as a distraction at the wrong moment. Too many of those and evolution will select against weak force sensitivity.

*Maybe it doesn't have enough detail. Maybe the creature receiving the burst isn't smart enough to understand it.

That is perhaps possible, in addition to the fact that it requires a great deal of training in order to properly develop the abilities. We do know that Luke nearly went on a suicide mission thanks to his visions, perhaps something similar would be likely without proper training to truly understand their visions. Besides this, it is possible that with the Force being

bilateralrope wrote:Maybe the midichlorian test is simpler to perform. Possibly because the midichlorians are the same in all species, while a genetic test has to work on various species. Each with a DNA equivalent that is different, meaning a genetic test has to look for a different thing in each species.

This actually is the case for blood typing in reality in that it is much faster than DNA. In some cases it is still used forensically for that reason. It could be the case here as well. But the point about DNA testing is that it would allow for knowing ahead of time who would and wouldn't be Force sensitive.

As a side note, why didn't the Jedi ever think to test the Senate for midichlorians in ROTS? This logically would have led to Palpatine's discovery. There was a comic book that looked at this possibility, with the unfortunate Jedi who suggested it being a close friend of the Chancellor. Unfortunately for said Jedi, he suggested it to Palpatine before the Council and Palpatine arranged his death in the Clone Wars. But what is odd is that Yoda or Mace Windu never thought of the possibility. Perhaps they felt that this would show their cards, or that they felt it would never work as Palpatine would never allow it.

Regardless, another issue is that Force affinity is shown among species as diverse as Gungans and Rodians in the Clone Wars series(shown when Cad Bane stole the Holocron). Even in the films we see a great diversity of alien races among the Jedi. If it were genetic, why would it happen with such diverse species, and in such small quantities with each?

Joun_Lord wrote:Snip

Obviously keeping to the movies would be required in any case. What I meant was that it would have been better if from the first season, they had been able to do whatever they wanted in terms of the EU. It wasn't until the third or forth season that they really began diverging from the original timeline of the Clone Wars(by killing Master Piell) in ways that could no longer be kept as the same continuity. Early on it could be justified as merely being different stories, and was by the continuity masters.

Adamskywalker007 wrote:

Grumman wrote:Hell, this is precisely why the Rule of Two exists: because being force sensitive can make you a mortal threat to those closest to you.

The Rule of Two has nothing to do with protecting others. Why would SIth care about such a thing?

Because the "other" is that Sith. The Sith Lord knows that every Sith apprentice is a danger to those close to them (i.e. him), so having only one Sith apprentice minimises that threat.

I always figured that midiclorians were a result of Force sensitivity, not a cause, and that Qui-Gon's explanation to Anakin in TPM was the watered-down "this is the explanation for younglings" version.

As for why the Jedi never tested the Senate, well there was that Shroud of the Dark Side going on, and the apocalyptic war. Plus, there was no certainty for them that the hidden Sith Lord was actually a member of the Senate or their staffs, as opposed to having agents/spies in palce to feed them information.

Eternal_Freedom wrote:I always figured that midiclorians were a result of Force sensitivity, not a cause, and that Qui-Gon's explanation to Anakin in TPM was the watered-down "this is the explanation for younglings" version.

As for why the Jedi never tested the Senate, well there was that Shroud of the Dark Side going on, and the apocalyptic war. Plus, there was no certainty for them that the hidden Sith Lord was actually a member of the Senate or their staffs, as opposed to having agents/spies in palce to feed them information.

Probably a case of didn't think of it. I mean, theoretically they've got some kind of testing regime in place to spot young Force sensitive children early, because well they've got all these Younglings and in TCW we see they have a database of them. Perhaps they simply presumed that any active Senators and their aides had gone through the process whenever and been declared non-sensitive to the Force. It was an assumption that their processes were good enough that nobody like a Galactic Senator could have possibly fallen through the cracks, even if kids in backwater worlds dominated by the Hutts obviously did. A part of the Jedi overconfidence and arrogance that led to their downfall - remember how they were so sure Count Dooku wasn't behind the assassination attempts because a Jedi could never do such a thing?

Yeah I was thinking of mentioning the younglings testing but I couldn't recall a source for it, so erred on the side of caution.

Grumman wrote:

Adamskywalker007 wrote:The fundamental problem is that if Force powers are genetic, they should be present in nearly every species in the galaxy, given the evolutionary advantages they grant.

I wouldn't say it's so clear cut that it actually does provide an evolutionary advantage. It provides an increase in personal power, sure, but it also makes you more vulnerable to the influence of the dark side, and pulling an Anakin and strangling the mother of your unborn children is not a good way to pass on your genes.

Hell, this is precisely why the Rule of Two exists: because being force sensitive can make you a mortal threat to those closest to you.

I think we need to remember the scale of the human civilization vice most of the other species inside galactic civilization at large. There are simply more humans, and we know humans have had a galactic scale civilization for pretty much all of many tens of thousands of years of galactic history which is not necessarily true for all the other species we see. For all we know the selection pressures for an evolutionary development of force powers is unique to that environment.

Grumman wrote:Because the "other" is that Sith. The Sith Lord knows that every Sith apprentice is a danger to those close to them (i.e. him), so having only one Sith apprentice minimises that threat.

The best Sith, those most pure to their code, didn't actually care if they died, so long as their successor was stronger than they were. Bane's only problem with Zannah succeeding him was that he felt she had waited too long until he had started to show signs of aging. The Rule of Two was interested in keeping the Sith line pure as much as it was protecting the Master. Only Sith like Palpatine used it as an excuse to have weaker apprentices that could never be a threat to him.

Patroklos wrote:I think we need to remember the scale of the human civilization vice most of the other species inside galactic civilization at large. There are simply more humans, and we know humans have had a galactic scale civilization for pretty much all of many tens of thousands of years of galactic history which is not necessarily true for all the other species we see. For all we know the selection pressures for an evolutionary development of force powers is unique to that environment.

This could be the case, that without training and guidance Force powers are worse than useless for most species in the galaxy. And for those that were non-sentient, if their visions would produce negative side effects, then it might be the case that there would be an evolutionary pressure against them. But this still leaves the question of why Jedi would forbid the order from reproducing if Fore affinity was genetic. What group would ever prevent a rare trait from spreading when they use it?

RogueIce wrote:Probably a case of didn't think of it. I mean, theoretically they've got some kind of testing regime in place to spot young Force sensitive children early, because well they've got all these Younglings and in TCW we see they have a database of them. Perhaps they simply presumed that any active Senators and their aides had gone through the process whenever and been declared non-sensitive to the Force. It was an assumption that their processes were good enough that nobody like a Galactic Senator could have possibly fallen through the cracks, even if kids in backwater worlds dominated by the Hutts obviously did. A part of the Jedi overconfidence and arrogance that led to their downfall - remember how they were so sure Count Dooku wasn't behind the assassination attempts because a Jedi could never do such a thing?

I hadn't actually thought of that point. It was also the case in TPM that Qui-Gon stated that if Anakin had been in the Republic he would have been identified early. As for the Sith Lord slipping through the cracks, the assumption would be that if he was in the Republic, he would have been found and thus everyone in the SEnate would have already been tested. How Palpatine managed to get around this is a mystery. Jedi arrogance is obviously another major issue and justifies many of the questionably decisions they make.

As another side note, there was something of a missed opportunity in AOTC. In terms of the conspiracy to assassinate Amidala, it would have been better if the initial suspects were Republic loyalists in support of the army. Thus when Obi-Wan goes to Kamino, it would be oddly suspicious that the assassin fled to a world with a convenient army. Obviously when Gunray and Dooku admit their involvement it would clear the loyalists.

Adamskywalker007 wrote:

Patroklos wrote:I think we need to remember the scale of the human civilization vice most of the other species inside galactic civilization at large. There are simply more humans, and we know humans have had a galactic scale civilization for pretty much all of many tens of thousands of years of galactic history which is not necessarily true for all the other species we see. For all we know the selection pressures for an evolutionary development of force powers is unique to that environment.

This could be the case, that without training and guidance Force powers are worse than useless for most species in the galaxy. And for those that were non-sentient, if their visions would produce negative side effects, then it might be the case that there would be an evolutionary pressure against them. But this still leaves the question of why Jedi would forbid the order from reproducing if Fore affinity was genetic. What group would ever prevent a rare trait from spreading when they use it?

I can think of two possible reasons:

1.) They are an elite warrior class with a very desirable ability that affords them special rights and privileges. They are basically a meddling Praetorian type entity from some perspectives/accounts (I am thinking Traviss, but I have observed this in lots of the EU and prequels). They don't seem particularly smart or savy compared to non-force users but they do have a super power that is pretty advantageous. And for the most part the only people that can challenge them are others with this same super power. Tightly controlling who this super power can be inherited by lets them concentrate power in their own order and keep their place at the top. If ever angsty teenage Anakin out there were knocking up girls in every backwater shithole he stopped off in this control would be broken, talented force users would develop outside their control as possible rivals. And I don't mean just Sith rivals, but perhaps "I don't want your creepy sexless monk thng BS order but something different where we can have kids and stuff, and WE think we should be the Senates right hand paramilitary force instead of you" If you want to be a bit altruistic about it unknown force users developing without the guidance or the Jedi Order is what leads to powerful Sith agents like Palpantine materializing out of thin air.

2.) They don't need or want millions or Jedi running around because the processes to maintain control of that many demigods might not scale. Like any other religion the possibility of schisms and other unrest is probably without a tight leash.

Just two ideas, but they both leave us with the problem of how do you get more Jedi? Well, as has insinuated with Anakin, perhaps the order clandestinely seeds the galaxy and then monitors them until they get a candidate that has what they need. This gives you the advantage or having some sort of outside knowledge or the world to add a little diversity to the Order. I don't know, there is no evidence for this outside Anakin but do we really hear very much about the parents and origins of a lot of the Jedi? I always thought the youngling thing was creepy, training kids to use super powers and locking them into a lifelong monastic commitment before they know how to read. Where did they come from? Whose parents just give their children up to never be heard from again? Or are they all the children of slavery or some other similar horrendous circumstance where they can just be scooped up at will? I don't think so, but has any Jedi mentioned going home to exchange Fete day presents with mom and dad?

Eternal_Freedom wrote:Yeah I was thinking of mentioning the younglings testing but I couldn't recall a source for it, so erred on the side of caution.

I don't know that there is one, personally. I was never really interested in most of the PT EU, and could probably count on one hand the number of EU things I read from that era. TCW was about it for me, aside from the movies themselves.

I was just going off inference that there was some kind of testing. As Qui-Gon mentions in TPM, Anakin would have been spotted early, had he been born in the Republic. And the test itself doesn't seem to be all that specialized or difficult to perform; Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan were able to test Anakin even though they were in a circumstance they had not foreseen and were never planning on testing for Force-sensitive individuals in their original mission. And then as I mentioned TCW showed us the Jedi have a list of Force-sensitive children that they maintain, and those names had to come from somewhere. Thus it is reasonable to conclude there is some form of systematic midichlorian testing going on within the Republic.

As Adamskywalker007 said, just how Palpatine got around this remains a mystery. Possibly through Plagueis' machinations and then they - or Palpatine himself after his Master was removed, as he'd certainly have the skills - simply infiltrated into Naboo society at some point.

And the Jedi simply went on and assumed that someone as high profile as him must certainly have been through whatever the normal early screening was. And certainly somebody who spent as much time around the Jedi Council as Palpatine - especially Yoda, who was probably one of the most powerful, experienced and wise Jedi who had ever been - and they never sensed anything? Why that's just inconceivable, isn't it?

An alternative explanation for the Jedi not checking the Senate: they simply assumed that no Sith could tolerate all the democracy and tolerance necessary to become a politician there.

Everything I read about Sith from both the film and the EU shows that they are domineering and want to rule. They want power in all its forms, under any circumstance. Palpatine was a god of deception, not just deceiving the Jedi, but decieving everyone for most of his life. Becoming a charismatic politician who is willing to reign in their anger about petty political issues, serve justice and and serve the Galaxy like that is unthinkable. It would be like a warmongering hippie or a technopile Amish. A Sith doing that would require to do the exact opposite of what a Sith is defined by. Palpatine interpreted the Sith teaching his own way and deviated from it, which is something the Jedi probably didn't think about. They probably imagined, those who suspected that Sith are still around, that it's some lone Master holed up in some ass-end of the Galaxy away from Jedi reach.


About hereditary Force powers: ignoring EU/Legends and midichlorians (Wookiepedia says that they were meant to be merely an indicator, not a cause in any way) for a moment, biology can complicate things. You can have a trait and not express it. It might be that there is a large portion of the population that have the necessary genes but only certain environmental pressures can trigger it. If its tied to a developmental thing, it may be that the right environmental pressure has to come in a small window of time and outside of it may cause babies with potential Force-sensitivity to never develop it. For all we know, something on Tatooine might have caused both Anakin and Luke to be very strong in the Force and we know only about them because Tatooine is so sparsely inhabited (not to mention out of reach for the Jedi Order).
The environmental pressure necessary can be something withing the Force itself (which is the magic part of "space magic") and thus may not be always enough to effect evolutionary process and cannot be artificially induced. Its sparse appearance might cause the genes to be widespread by those who have it activated and thus use it (maybe or maybe not, it might work out the opposite way if they become Sith), but that advantageous influence would be gone within two or more generations. It would also explain why we see plenty of aliens being Force-sensitive.

Those comments about the Senate fit what the ROTS novelization said about the new Sith. The Jedi had tried to refight the last war while the Sith grew and adapted for the new one. One fought by popular opinion and politics as much as by lightsabers. And the Sith know how to play dirty better than anyone else. The key virtue that Bane's Sith had, what the earlier Sith had lacked, was patience, something generally thought of as a Jedi trait. The Jedi had never known the Sith to have patience.

As for the Force being hereditary but environmentally activated, that is interesting. One possibility is that Force powers are somewhat activated by the specific environment the individual grows up in. Thus it would make sense that Luke rather than Leia was more Force sensitive as he grew up as a poor farmer rather than living as royalty as she did. Similarly Anakin, growing up in the harsh environment of being a slave on Tatooine developed the abilities as well. Though if that were the case it would make sense that a species like Wookies would be better represented among the Jedi given that they lived in a manner much closer to nature, and a rather violent one at that, but presumably it is weakly genetic for them. Jedi who grew up in the temple would have all been given this gift. It would also explain

Another related possibility is that the Force itself balances against it being purely hereditary as too many Force users would bring things out of balance. This might be why the Jedi were against having children of Jedi, there was a sense that this act would bring the Force out of balance. However as this occurred over time, it somewhat backfired, thus Anakin brought the Force back into balance by having Force sensitive children. Sith never considered the possibility due to their lack of desire for attachment, as it leads to mercy.

I never read the ROTJ novelization. To me, it sounds like Darth Bane turned away from tradition when he saw other Sith annihilated and used Jedi tactics against them. Quite a common thing to do in war.

I don't think living "naturally" would have much to do with it. Even the Wookies use technology and Luke grew up in a "moisture farm" (never understood how that was profitable unless they had extensive underground farms or something) in a desert, not exactly a model of "natural" hunter-gatherer lifestlye. It would also cut out the level of natural life being a factor as well, otherwise the Jedi Temple would be counterproductive on Coruscant. However if you look how much sapient life there is on Coruscant (one trillion souls), it may become beneficial.

The Force-sensitive trait can also be tied to traits that are unrelated. For all we know, hair color might be an indirect influence. Or a particular set-up in the brain or even something as obscure as an aspect of mind.

A possible variable is the existence of Force Nexuses (Nexi?). Points where the Force is very strong in some way (like the cave on Dagobah and possibly the Jedi Temple itself). Anakin and Luke may have been around one. Tatooine was once a lush world that got glassed from orbit (according to the EU), that level of death may be a factor in creating a Force Nexus (then again, Qui-gon and later Anakin would have noted it).

Leia may have some latent Force-Sensitivity, she knew where Luke was on Bespin and it would explain why some of her riskier moves paid out (like giving a particular droid the plans).

Personally I have great affection for "The Star Wars" (I guess that belong in the EU category).

Seeing one of Lucas first drafts visualized is great fun with it's green alien Han Solo and all the other weird stuff in this book.

Zixinus wrote:I never read the ROTJ novelization. To me, it sounds like Darth Bane turned away from tradition when he saw other Sith annihilated and used Jedi tactics against them. Quite a common thing to do in war.

It was the TPM novelization, but you are largely right. It wasn't actually a very good read and the section with Sith history is probably the only good section. Though even it has several issues.

This is from Darth Maul considering the history of the Sith.

TPM novelization pg 137-139 wrote: The Sith had come into being almost two thousand years ago. They were a cult given over to the dark side of the Force, embracing fully the concept that power denied was power wasted. A rogue Jedi Knight had founded the Sith, a singular dissident in an order of harmonious followers, a rebel who understood from the beginning that the real power of the Force lay not in the light, but in the dark. Failing to gain approval for his beliefs from the Council, he had broken with the order, departing with his knowledge and his skills, swearing in secret that he could bring down those who had dismissed him.

He was alone at first, but others from the Jedi Order who believed as he did and had followed him in his study of the Dark Side soon came over. Others were recruited and soon the ranks of the Sith swelled to more than fifty in number. Disdaining the concepts of cooperation and consensus, relying on the belief that acquisition of power in any form lends strength and yields control, the Sith began to build their cult in opposition to the Jedi. Theirs was not an order created to serve, theirs was an order created to dominate.

Their war with the Jedi was vengeful and furious and ultimately doomed. The rogue Jedi who had founded the Sith order was its nominal leader, but his ambition excluded any sharing of power. His disciples began to conspire against him and each other almost from the beginning, so that the war they instigated was as much with each other as with the Jedi.

In the end, the Sith destroyed themselves. They destroyed their leader first, then each other. What few survived the initial bloodbath were quickly dispatched by watchful Jedi. In a manner of only weeks, all of them died.

All but one.

Darth Maul shifted impatiently. He had not yet learned his master's patience; that would come with time and training. It was patience that had saved the Sith order in the end. It was patience that would give them victory now over the Jedi.

The Sith who had survived had understood that. He had adopted patience as a virtue when all others had forsaken it. He had adopted cunning stealth and subterfuge as the foundation of his way - Jedi virtues the others had disdained. He stood aside while the Sith tore each other apart like kriks and were destroyed. When the carnage was complete, he went into hiding, biding his time, waiting for his chance.

When it was believed that all of the Sith were destroyed, he emerged from his concealment. At first he worked alone, but he was growing old and he was the last of his kind. Eventually, he went out in search of an apprentice. Finding one, he trained him to be a Master in his turn, then to find his own apprentice, and so to carry on their work. But there would only be two at any one time. There would be no repetition of the mistakes of the old order, no struggle between Siths warring for power within the cult. Their common enemy was the Jedi, not each other. It was for their war with the Jedi they must save themselves.

The Sith who reinvented the order called himself Darth Bane.

A thousand years had passed since the Sith were believed destroyed, and the time they had waited for had come at last.

This completely contradicts the ideas from literally all of the EU involving the history of the Sith, even those directly involving Bane. In the EU there were Sith before this era as well as the group Bane went up against: the Brotherhood of Darkness, a Sith cult who took the Jedi virtue of cooperation, in the process weakening themselves in the Dark Side. Bane destroyed them himself rather than standing aside while they destroyed themselves.

It would be interesting with the new canon if they could feature a story that properly tells the above in more detail. Though it would have to address four problems: In TPM Maul refers to the Sith wanting revenge against the Jedi. According to this passage, revenge for what? The Sith destroyed themselves. The Jedi certainly weren't directly to blame. The second problem was that the Sith apparently ruled, or at least came close to ruling the galaxy as Palpatine stated in ROTS. This was also backed up by Mace Windu's comments about Sith oppression. The third is that Yoda clearly knows about the Rule of Two, something apparently created after the Sith were in hiding. And in Clone Wars, Yoda even recognizes Darth Bane's spirit as the creator of the Rule of Two. The final problem in this passage is one of timing. Unless I am missing something, either Bane lived 1,000 years, or the earliest Sith did. How can the Sith Civil War last weeks if there was 1,000 years between the first Sith and Bane?

Zixinus wrote:I don't think living "naturally" would have much to do with it. Even the Wookies use technology and Luke grew up in a "moisture farm" (never understood how that was profitable unless they had extensive underground farms or something) in a desert, not exactly a model of "natural" hunter-gatherer lifestlye.

While it is not exactly harsh living, it is more so than living a life of royalty.

It would also cut out the level of natural life being a factor as well, otherwise the Jedi Temple would be counterproductive on Coruscant. However if you look how much sapient life there is on Coruscant (one trillion souls), it may become beneficial.

The amount of life does seem a significant factor in general, though that wouldn't explain how Tatooine was important.

Zixinus wrote:The Force-sensitive trait can also be tied to traits that are unrelated. For all we know, hair color might be an indirect influence. Or a particular set-up in the brain or even something as obscure as an aspect of mind.

I wonder how exactly that would work. The idea of brain structure having something to do with it is interesting. One possibility is that it requires a individual in which emotions are far stronger and more raw than for one who is neurotypical. A similar idea was present in Serenity with River, the Alliance cut into her brain as a means to artificially create this connection. As a real life example, autism has both environmental and genetic causes.

This might explain why it is not an evolutionary advantage. That the emotional connection necessary would require an individual to be more vulnerable without the development of Force abilities.

Zixinus wrote:A possible variable is the existence of Force Nexuses (Nexi?). Points where the Force is very strong in some way (like the cave on Dagobah and possibly the Jedi Temple itself). Anakin and Luke may have been around one. Tatooine was once a lush world that got glassed from orbit (according to the EU), that level of death may be a factor in creating a Force Nexus (then again, Qui-gon and later Anakin would have noted it).

In KOTOR the Star Map being on Tatooine had a role in making it more important in the Force. Though if that were a reason, Kashyyk, Dantooine and Manaan should have had similar elements. Though it is possible the star maps on those worlds were effectively used up in some other fashion. On Dantooine the fact that the Jedi enclave was destroyed by the Sith probably had something to do with its presence in the Force being changed for the worse. Manaan's kolto(the KOTOR era version of bacta) was considered a result of the Star Map by the ruling council. As for Kashyyk, the wild beasts on the surface of the planet were considered a result of this presence.

Zixinus wrote:Leia may have some latent Force-Sensitivity, she knew where Luke was on Bespin and it would explain why some of her riskier moves paid out (like giving a particular droid the plans).

Actually the biggest problem with my idea is that Obi-Wan and Yoda clearly believed that Leia could replace Luke. Though this idea of luck being an aspect of Force sensitivity is interesting. Thus a characters who comes across as extremely lucky like Han might be Force sensitive in a different way than Jedi. This would certainly explain how his and Leia's children were so strong in the Force(I'm assuming that stays from the old EU).