StarDestroyer.Net BBS

DaveJB wrote: All that assumes that the Enterprise computer is able to search the entire surface of a planet fast enough to pick up a vaguely defined target object.

Almost like in Angel One when they asked the computer to scan for 1 gram of Platinum on an entire planet and the computer found it in a couple of seconds because it (like trilithium) was not native. Almost like that, eh?

DaveJB wrote:I'm surprised the writers didn't just go with the obvious solution and establish that Soran had put sensor jamming devices on the planet and/or the Klingons were blocking the Enterprise's sensors.

Well the really retarded thing is, they kinda did - he had cloaked the missile itself - why not just cloak the site? All the pieces were there.

Jamming wouldn't work. Jamming doesn't conceal your position but rather doesn't let you use your sensors to observe something through its own signal. What jamming, however, a jammer actually broadcasts its own position, so if it were anywhere near the site it would be pointless. If it was not they could just destroy the jammer.

If the Enterprise has any signal collection equipment whatsoever, and we know they do because dozens of plot lines revolve around them detecting unknown and strange signals, they would immediate locate the jamming site. Not if this were a situation where the jammer was behind a planetary shield or an opposing fleet or somewhere out of range that would be another thing. I am not saying jamming is useless in the ST universe, just that I fail to see how it would be effective in this case.

Prometheus Unbound wrote:Almost like in Angel One when they asked the computer to scan for 1 gram of Platinum on an entire planet and the computer found it in a couple of seconds because it (like trilithium) was not native. Almost like that, eh?

In Angel One the Enterprise's sensors were working at full capacity, IIRC. The fact that they couldn't detect two humanoids on an otherwise totally unpopulated planet nor the signature of trilithium (which is apparently normally so potent that even Geordi could instantly recognise it with his VISOR) shows how badly borked their sensors were by whatever anomaly of the week movie was present in the ionosphere.

In retrospect, I guess it was also lucky that the ships that showed up to rescue the crash survivors weren't impeded by this atmospheric anomaly. Though I suppose they could have just had a shuttle wait in orbit to lead the rescue ships down to the crash site. Either that or there was never anything odd about the planet's atmosphere, and it actually turned out that the sensors were just dirty.

Additionally, you would think that some phenomenon potent enough to completely block sensor scans for non-native elements, lifesigns, advanced technology etc would also block transporters, considering all the much weaker stuff we've seen block transporters.

I am actually surprised sensors are effective in combat at all. With all the random things that render them near useless it should be near effortless to make jamming so effective shooting by sight becomes the norm.

Interestingly in First Contact they were indeed using visual targeting to shoot torpedoes. Maybe that was due to damage to the ship but it didn't look like it.

in First Contact they were indeed using visual targeting to shoot torpedoes.

And the effectiveness showed. Some of the torpedoes were missing by literally a mile or more.

Patroklos wrote:I am actually surprised sensors are effective in combat at all. With all the random things that render them near useless it should be near effortless to make jamming so effective shooting by sight becomes the norm.

That might be what they do. Compare The Wounded, where the Phoenix was able to effectively engage a Cardassian warship from hundreds of thousands of kilometres, with the fleet actions of the Dominion War, when the objective occasionally seemed to be to close to bayonet range.

Borgholio wrote:

in First Contact they were indeed using visual targeting to shoot torpedoes.

And the effectiveness showed. Some of the torpedoes were missing by literally a mile or more.

I am talking about when Data is targeting Cochran's ship at the end.

Though, to be fair, Data was intentionally missing during that scene and was pulling a fast one on the Borg Queen.

I was just pointing out that visual targeting in ST is not only a thing but apparently so common as to not even suspect when observed (to both the Borg Queen and Picard).

how do you know that was purely visual targeting?

We did see a square move across the screen, follow the phoenix, lock on to it and then "pin" itself to the outline of the ship - looked like a targeting sensor thingy to me.

Eternal_Freedom wrote:Additionally, you would think that some phenomenon potent enough to completely block sensor scans for non-native elements, lifesigns, advanced technology etc would also block transporters, considering all the much weaker stuff we've seen block transporters.

Weirdly enough, the film does provide a possible explanation, though I'm not sure it's one that the writers intended. There's no way that Soran could have just beamed down his launch platform and all those bridges from the Klingon BoP after they showed up at the planet, so he must have prepared the launch site some time before destroying the Amargosa star. And when he was doing that, he would likely have noticed that the planet's atmosphere tends to screw up sensors, and either told the Klingons how to work around it, or set up a transporter signal booster.

Or he picked it specifically because of it

They wouldn't have even needed to scan for the actual rocket - just scan for the launch facility - it was shown that there was a series of platforms and small bridges/trestles. The rest of the area was uninhabited desert - it couldn't have been that hard, with the kind of visual sensors that they had. You could see the surface of the planet, so an ordinary light-collecting camera, with high enough resolution, should have worked.

So just quarter the entire planet visually scanning for a handful of gantries and walkways only a couple of hundreds of metres across.
When they don't even know exactly what they're looking for.

It might have helped narrow the target range down since they were presumably scanning for artificial structures in general rather than a specific type of missile platform, but that just brings us back to whether or not the computer could have done it quickly enough.

Also, from a purely writing point-of-view, all those bridges and platforms? They weren't actually in the original cut of the film (the one where Kirk dies from being shot in the back by Soran). Originally it was just the launch platform, the stand where Soran goes to get sucked into the Nexus, and a connecting bridge. All the extra bridges and platforms were added when they filmed the ending that we eventually got.

Darth Nostril wrote:So just quarter the entire planet visually scanning for a handful of gantries and walkways only a couple of hundreds of metres across.
When they don't even know exactly what they're looking for.

In the episode "The Survivors", they arrive to find a once inhabited planet barren. They assume high orbit and start scanning - at first the planet appears wiped clean, then within just a few seconds they pickup structures. This took only a few seconds, and they didn't instruct the computer to look for anything specific, either.

Sorry for the bad link, but you can see this around the 1:18 second mark from the below video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tnDNcEJvCk4

I am talking about when Data is targeting Cochran's ship at the end.

Oh shit...I was thinking about Insurrection where they were missing the Sona ships by a mile during the chase through the badlands.

Borgholio wrote:

I am talking about when Data is targeting Cochran's ship at the end.

Oh shit...I was thinking about Insurrection where they were missing the Sona ships by a mile during the chase through the badlands.

Briar Patch. Badlands is somewhere else

biostem wrote:

Darth Nostril wrote:So just quarter the entire planet visually scanning for a handful of gantries and walkways only a couple of hundreds of metres across.
When they don't even know exactly what they're looking for.

In the episode "The Survivors", they arrive to find a once inhabited planet barren. They assume high orbit and start scanning - at first the planet appears wiped clean, then within just a few seconds they pickup structures. This took only a few seconds, and they didn't instruct the computer to look for anything specific, either.

Sorry for the bad link, but you can see this around the 1:18 second mark from the below video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tnDNcEJvCk4

They were also using the full complement of sensors to scan the planet, not just visual. Sorry but it proves nothing about how good their visual scanning is.

(What's up with the audio in that clip, sounds like they were all snorting helium )

Probably a trick by the uploader to avoid a copyright suit from CBS. Picard still sounds pretty good though

Yeah, subtly changing the frame rate and mirroring the image are common tactics to fool YouTube's automatic copyright detectors.

Baffalo wrote:I have to wonder, given the series of bad decisions seen in Generations, surely someone's ass would have been canned for the loss of the Enterprise-D.

Crusher for clearing LaForge to return to duty, Soran did torture him, no doubt she would've seen evidence of it, and then there's the decoy 'probe' she did find in the visor. Overall given Geordi's histroy of being brainwashed and having his visor sophisticatedly tampered with...he should've been on medical leave, pending psychological evaluation AND the arrival of a replacement visor.

Picard was emotionally compromised and should have given up command,

That's one for Troi, while Picard should've recognized his own state...it's Troi's job to check for that and use her position to relieve Picard.

Riker was almost criminally inept with his handling of the Enterprise in combat,

Goes with his track record, this being the second time he lost the E-D...Riker should've been discharged at the minimum

Troi, well, we remember how well she piloted...

Is she even qualified to take the helm? (things like this make me wish Starfleet was 'military' enough to have skill/qualification badges [pilot wings])

We could pin this on Riker for ordering her at helm control, her inexperience could be argued for...
1.Turning the (Flight I) Galaxy Class' vulnerable neck spine into enemy fire
2. possibly putting the E-D into a decaying orbit instead of ascending to a higher orbital plane.

and any time they lose a ship, there's a court martial. What would be the list of charges, and how did anyone avoid losing their jobs? (other than the production saying they couldn't split up the cast for obvious reasons).

Crusher: Medical incompetence, clearing a released prisoner to return to duty immediately (said officer having a medical history of brainwashing...and whom's medical appliance had evidence of tampering.)

Riker: Incompetence of command, ordering only a single phaser blast in retaliation for repeated shield penetrating torpedo strikes. Giving vague maneuver orders to a potentially unqualified officer at the helm. Relying solely on a convoluted ploy to destroy an enemy vessel (that even without shields the E-D had tactical superiority over.)

Troi: Dereliction of Duty, failing to recognize the compromised psychological state of Capt. Picard, not relieving him on witnessing a definite suicidal decision (Picard volunteering to be a hostage.)

We were talking about this in another thread, and I think you may be overstating the number of screwups involved.

Although some of these issues (like Troi not relieving Picard of command because of mental health issues) were not discussed, and I don't feel qualified to say whether or not those are fair criticisms at this time.