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Flagg wrote:

The Romulan Republic wrote:Really? Are you going to drag shit from other threads in here to try to insult me with Ad hominems?

That wasn't an ad hominem you stupid asshole. It was pointing out your utter ignorance on pretty much every subject you've posted about that I've participated in.

Also, if you want a theocratic regime to have nuclear weapons simply because they're against America and you hate America, then you are blinded by your hostility to America to the point of illogic and moral bankruptcy.

No, stupid. Try to concentrate when reading this (with hair fully put out, please): I want Iran to have nuclear weapons to 1) Provide stability to the region so that the US, Saudi Arabia, and Israel don't get to swing their dicks around like they are king of shit mountain and 2) To prevent the US (The country I live in) from invading Iran and spending 10 years there wasting money and soldiers lives just so we can get chased out with our tail between our legs like what happened last decade, further destabilizing the region and leading to further ethnic cleansing and all that fun stuff.

But I guess not wanting a ton of innocent Iranian civilians to die makes me morally bankrupt? And who gives a fuck if they are a theocracy? Only country to ever actually use atomic weapons on actual people was a Republic. Can you guess which one?

Do you honestly and truly believe that Iran having nuclear weapons will stabilize the middle east? This is a serious question - they have no good track record when it comes to basic human rights, and you're advocating allowing them to have weapons of such devastating potential?

Neither does Israel, yet they have the bomb.
neither does the USA at this point in time either.

Bit puzzled why you are choosing human rights abuses as the key metriC. Most abuses happen internally, while nukes are more useful as external threats.

Israel and the US having nuclear weapons doesn't mean Iran should. And no, I'm not saying Israel and America should have them while Iran shouldn't. I think it would probably be better, at least at this point, if none of those countries had them. Let me put it this way: if their was a violet criminal trying to buy an assault rifle, would you defend the violent criminal getting an assault rifle on the basis that other violent criminals already have assault rifles? Because that's pretty much what you're doing here.

Edit: A big difference, of course, being that a state is typically composed of many people with different degrees of trustworthiness and ethics, not just one person. I'll admit its not a perfect analogy in that regard. I'm not trying to stereotype countries as being all violent criminals.

The Romulan Republic wrote:Israel and the US having nuclear weapons doesn't mean Iran should. And no, I'm not saying Israel and America should have them while Iran shouldn't. I think it would probably be better, at least at this point, if none of those countries had them. Let me put it this way: if their was a violet criminal trying to buy an assault rifle, would you defend the violent criminal getting an assault rifle on the basis that other violent criminals already have assault rifles? Because that's pretty much what you're doing here.

Edit: A big difference, of course, being that a state is typically composed of many people with different degrees of trustworthiness and ethics, not just one person. I'll admit its not a perfect analogy in that regard. I'm not trying to stereotype countries as being all violent criminals.

The problem with that analogy is most people don't think of Iran as a violent criminal but a victim who has done some fucked up shit occasionally to defend himself from actual criminals fucking with him. He's like a homeowner getting home invaded, his stuff messed with, and his nuclear physicist dogs shot.

To defend himself he is trying to create a neighborhood watch with other nearby homeowners but also maybe trying to move bad people in the neighborhood as a preventative measure or just to hurt the criminals.

Him being armed with a nuclear extended clip evil fully semi-auto black assault weapon is just trying to level the playing field against the criminal scum already armed with their own assault wepons. Though people make the argument that the fact the criminals have yet to use their assault wepons except that one time when people still considered them nice guys and one criminal wasn't even born yet, giving the assault rifle to the homeowner just might make the home defense far worse then it would otherwise be. Plus that homeowner might be willing to hand out weapons grade assault rifles to the rather horrible neighbors he moved in. Neighbors who might have less reasons or sanity to not use their assault rifle.

Now I don't necessarily agree with that analogy (though I don't disagree with it really either) but thats how some even in this thread see the situation.

I'm not sure that is how most people see Iran, even globally (it sure as hell isn't how they are perceived by a lot of people in the US) and I'm not sure where you're getting that from, but even if that is true, it doesn't mean that opinion is correct. For one thing, being the victim of another asshole does not mean you aren't an asshole too. Also, the theocratic government, the brutal crackdown after the elections a few years ago, the support for terrorists... Sure, they're not unique in doing shit like that, but that doesn't make it good.

Edit: If people want to criticize America, that's fine, as long as those criticism are factual and not exaggerations or bashing people just because they're American. But I wish people would criticize America without defending countries like Iran as if being against America automatically makes you the good guy or gives you carte blanche.

Thanas wrote:

Simon_Jester wrote:And honoring your compulsion to dump on the US whenever anyone posts about anything will not change matters.

You will apologize for and cease making that accusation or prove it. Go on, prove how I dump on the US whenever anyone posts about anything. I will put up with your smarmy shit but I will not put up with you accusing me of pointless anti-americanism.

I will admit to exaggerating the frequency of your random dump-on-the-US posts. But you do make them, at times when it is neither fitting nor necessary, or to a degree greater than necessary, and I am not the only person who's called you out on this.

An incomplete sampling (I searched all your posts in N&P that contained the word 'American') suggests that you do this more often than you used to, but you have been doing it.

Supporting evidence:

http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic. ... 2&t=162611
http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic. ... 4#p3888354
http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic. ... 0#p3882590 (more debateable)

I will retract the use of the word 'always' and I apologize for implying that this is some kind of obsessive-compulsive thing you do literally every time.

However, I will not retract the claim that this is a thing which you do, this practice of making gratuitous sneers toward the US to a degree that is situationally inappropriate, or outright unjustified.

Then you, nobody else, brought up the US Navy and called it "business as usual" when a country massively boasts about a training exercise that is minimally accurate and wasteful, with the implication that the US does that too.

Either you don't know enough about military affairs to have a useful opinion on what constitutes a good training exercise that a country has a right to feel proud of...

Or you're so busy comparing everything to the US in an attempt to denigrate the US, that you don't stop to take note of cases where the US might actually be doing something correctly, that some other nation happens to do incorrectly.

You can go fuck right off with your "oh no Thanas insults the US at every turn" bullshit. Every nation boasts of manoeuvres. The US does it. Germany does it. As I was responding to an American I brought up what I felt to be the most valid example. If that insults you or makes your dick feel especially small today, then that is your problem, not mine.

And if your lack of knowledge and inability to perceive nuances makes you cranky, that's your problem, not mine.

There is a big difference between:
1) Saying of your training exercise "this is good training" after having taken steps to make it so, and
2) Saying of your training exercise "FEAR OUR MIGHT!" after basically turning the whole thing into an opportunity to shoot propaganda footage.

When any nation does (1) it is fine. When a nation does (2), it's bombastic idiocy. When the US does it, it's bombastic idiocy. When Iran does it, it's bombastic idiocy.

The Iranians are being accused of bombastic idiocy that interfered with their own training exercise by multiple posters here.

Bringing the US into the matter has not strengthened your position, because the US press release you quote didn't say what you needed it to say.

Flagg wrote:The fuckwitism is strong with this thread. Iran did what the US does all the fucking time, the only difference is resources and technology. Oh, and the abject racism of "Hurr hurr dem sand monkeys caint blow stuff up like we cahn!" chest thumping of stupid Americans.

If you are too stupid

See, Thanas has a bit of a problem with kneejerk anti-Americanism. He at least tries to be a logical person on other issues though, so he retains vestiges of my respect. You, by contrast, seem to have literally nothing but said anti-Americanism between your ears.

Oh and do you know why Iran might do such things? It's probably because one of the two major parties in the US that controls 2/3 of the government as well as Ben Nuttyahoo want to go to war with them. But fuck Iran for not wanting to be stomped on by the US and Israel only for it to get the Iraq treatment.

Who said otherwise?

I understand exactly why the Iranians want to train their coast defense forces. They'd be fools not to train them.

My criticism is that they are training poorly, in ways that seem more suited to creating propaganda than to creating a well-trained military. And also that they are engaged in more boasting than is sensible; similar boasting by any other country would be just as foolish.

Flagg wrote:Every time someone posts about an "American Enemy" doing something involving war games or technological achievements already made by the US some American asshat will always show up and mock them, especially if it's NK or Iran. If it's NK it's "wow Crazy Kim does it again!",but if it's Iran? They laugh at their technological inferiority or brag about how the US would stomp them into dust. And as far as I'm concerned, it's racist bullshit, especially since the US spent a good part of the 00's doing just that to Iraq.

If the Iranians had done what really looked like a competently run training exercise, and refrained from turning it into a pretext for shouting about how they'll huff and they'll puff and they'll blow our house down... I for one would see no reason to mock them.

That's why I want Iran to get nukes. Because suddenly all of those rock hard micro-Penises in the Pentagon shrink and go flaccid when presented with trying to invade a country with nukes and invasion becomes a non-option.

So the actual direct consequences that might be experienced by people who live in or next to Iran are not important? Because what really matters is the hilarity of watching the Pentagon stop engage in chest-beating?

And seriously, given your conduct of hair on fire lunacy in other threads based on your total ignorance of how other countries work, I don't think you have the right to call anyone "dumb".

You're a walking catalog of cognitive biases, and you have people patiently explaining to you critical parts of their arguments you totally ignored out of sheer obtuseness in... I don't know, I'm guessing one thread in four. He who lives in a glass house should not throw stones.

madd0ct0r wrote:Neither does Israel, yet they have the bomb.
neither does the USA at this point in time either.

Bit puzzled why you are choosing human rights abuses as the key metriC. Most abuses happen internally, while nukes are more useful as external threats.

The US developed the atomic bomb as a counter against other regimes that were even worse, and having invented it it's hard to un-invent it. I would argue that at the moment the US should forego either its nuclear capability or a large fraction of its conventional capability; my recommendation would be the conventional weapons. They're expensive and they get us in trouble.

Israel developed the atomic bomb because it had already fought three costly and difficult wars against a coalition of surrounding states which had sworn to conquer it. Whether Israel is justified in doing anything we now associate with it, it's hard to come up with a better justification for nuclear weapons than "deter invaders."

Personally I understand Iran's desire to deter the US with a nuclear arsenal just fine- but I worry that because their government has multiple parallel lines of authority, and may or may not remain stable over the next several decades, and because they have a history of supporting well armed insurgencies in other countries... they might do something irresponsible that could touch off a nuclear war.

I'd be more comfortable with a world where nuclear weapons did not proliferate into Iranian hands. But the reasons I do sympathize with Iranian military planners' desire for The Bomb have nothing to do with the ridiculous gloating attitude of Flagg.

Simon_Jester wrote:

Thanas wrote:

Simon_Jester wrote:And honoring your compulsion to dump on the US whenever anyone posts about anything will not change matters.

You will apologize for and cease making that accusation or prove it. Go on, prove how I dump on the US whenever anyone posts about anything. I will put up with your smarmy shit but I will not put up with you accusing me of pointless anti-americanism.

I will admit to exaggerating the frequency of your random dump-on-the-US posts. But you do make them, at times when it is neither fitting nor necessary, or to a degree greater than necessary, and I am not the only person who's called you out on this.

An incomplete sampling (I searched all your posts in N&P that contained the word 'American') suggests that you do this more often than you used to, but you have been doing it.

Supporting evidence:

http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic. ... 2&t=162611
http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic. ... 4#p3888354
http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic. ... 0#p3882590 (more debateable)

I will retract the use of the word 'always' and I apologize for implying that this is some kind of obsessive-compulsive thing you do literally every time.

However, I will not retract the claim that this is a thing which you do, this practice of making gratuitous sneers toward the US to a degree that is situationally inappropriate, or outright unjustified.

Then you, nobody else, brought up the US Navy and called it "business as usual" when a country massively boasts about a training exercise that is minimally accurate and wasteful, with the implication that the US does that too.

Either you don't know enough about military affairs to have a useful opinion on what constitutes a good training exercise that a country has a right to feel proud of...

Or you're so busy comparing everything to the US in an attempt to denigrate the US, that you don't stop to take note of cases where the US might actually be doing something correctly, that some other nation happens to do incorrectly.

You can go fuck right off with your "oh no Thanas insults the US at every turn" bullshit. Every nation boasts of manoeuvres. The US does it. Germany does it. As I was responding to an American I brought up what I felt to be the most valid example. If that insults you or makes your dick feel especially small today, then that is your problem, not mine.

And if your lack of knowledge and inability to perceive nuances makes you cranky, that's your problem, not mine.

There is a big difference between:
1) Saying of your training exercise "this is good training" after having taken steps to make it so, and
2) Saying of your training exercise "FEAR OUR MIGHT!" after basically turning the whole thing into an opportunity to shoot propaganda footage.

When any nation does (1) it is fine. When a nation does (2), it's bombastic idiocy. When the US does it, it's bombastic idiocy. When Iran does it, it's bombastic idiocy.

The Iranians are being accused of bombastic idiocy that interfered with their own training exercise by multiple posters here.

Bringing the US into the matter has not strengthened your position, because the US press release you quote didn't say what you needed it to say.

Flagg wrote:The fuckwitism is strong with this thread. Iran did what the US does all the fucking time, the only difference is resources and technology. Oh, and the abject racism of "Hurr hurr dem sand monkeys caint blow stuff up like we cahn!" chest thumping of stupid Americans.

If you are too stupid

See, Thanas has a bit of a problem with kneejerk anti-Americanism. He at least tries to be a logical person on other issues though, so he retains vestiges of my respect. You, by contrast, seem to have literally nothing but said anti-Americanism between your ears.

Oh and do you know why Iran might do such things? It's probably because one of the two major parties in the US that controls 2/3 of the government as well as Ben Nuttyahoo want to go to war with them. But fuck Iran for not wanting to be stomped on by the US and Israel only for it to get the Iraq treatment.

Who said otherwise?

I understand exactly why the Iranians want to train their coast defense forces. They'd be fools not to train them.

My criticism is that they are training poorly, in ways that seem more suited to creating propaganda than to creating a well-trained military. And also that they are engaged in more boasting than is sensible; similar boasting by any other country would be just as foolish.

Flagg wrote:Every time someone posts about an "American Enemy" doing something involving war games or technological achievements already made by the US some American asshat will always show up and mock them, especially if it's NK or Iran. If it's NK it's "wow Crazy Kim does it again!",but if it's Iran? They laugh at their technological inferiority or brag about how the US would stomp them into dust. And as far as I'm concerned, it's racist bullshit, especially since the US spent a good part of the 00's doing just that to Iraq.

If the Iranians had done what really looked like a competently run training exercise, and refrained from turning it into a pretext for shouting about how they'll huff and they'll puff and they'll blow our house down... I for one would see no reason to mock them.

That's why I want Iran to get nukes. Because suddenly all of those rock hard micro-Penises in the Pentagon shrink and go flaccid when presented with trying to invade a country with nukes and invasion becomes a non-option.

So the actual direct consequences that might be experienced by people who live in or next to Iran are not important? Because what really matters is the hilarity of watching the Pentagon stop engage in chest-beating?

And seriously, given your conduct of hair on fire lunacy in other threads based on your total ignorance of how other countries work, I don't think you have the right to call anyone "dumb".

You're a walking catalog of cognitive biases, and you have people patiently explaining to you critical parts of their arguments you totally ignored out of sheer obtuseness in... I don't know, I'm guessing one thread in four. He who lives in a glass house should not throw stones.

madd0ct0r wrote:Neither does Israel, yet they have the bomb.
neither does the USA at this point in time either.

Bit puzzled why you are choosing human rights abuses as the key metriC. Most abuses happen internally, while nukes are more useful as external threats.

The US developed the atomic bomb as a counter against other regimes that were even worse, and having invented it it's hard to un-invent it. I would argue that at the moment the US should forego either its nuclear capability or a large fraction of its conventional capability; my recommendation would be the conventional weapons. They're expensive and they get us in trouble.

Israel developed the atomic bomb because it had already fought three costly and difficult wars against a coalition of surrounding states which had sworn to conquer it. Whether Israel is justified in doing anything we now associate with it, it's hard to come up with a better justification for nuclear weapons than "deter invaders."

Personally I understand Iran's desire to deter the US with a nuclear arsenal just fine- but I worry that because their government has multiple parallel lines of authority, and may or may not remain stable over the next several decades, and because they have a history of supporting well armed insurgencies in other countries... they might do something irresponsible that could touch off a nuclear war.

I'd be more comfortable with a world where nuclear weapons did not proliferate into Iranian hands. But the reasons I do sympathize with Iranian military planners' desire for The Bomb have nothing to do with the ridiculous gloating attitude of Flagg.

Simon, the fact that you just called someone obtuse and the heavens did not open up and strike you down is concrete proof in the lack of any kind of just deity. And Thanas has never been one to show "knee-jerk Anti-Americanism" as to knee-jerk generally means you tend to be wrong. Like you.

Simon_Jester wrote:

Thanas wrote:

Simon_Jester wrote:And honoring your compulsion to dump on the US whenever anyone posts about anything will not change matters.

You will apologize for and cease making that accusation or prove it. Go on, prove how I dump on the US whenever anyone posts about anything. I will put up with your smarmy shit but I will not put up with you accusing me of pointless anti-americanism.

I will admit to exaggerating the frequency of your random dump-on-the-US posts. But you do make them, at times when it is neither fitting nor necessary, or to a degree greater than necessary, and I am not the only person who's called you out on this.

An incomplete sampling (I searched all your posts in N&P that contained the word 'American') suggests that you do this more often than you used to, but you have been doing it.

Supporting evidence:

http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic. ... 2&t=162611
http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic. ... 4#p3888354
http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic. ... 0#p3882590 (more debateable)

I will retract the use of the word 'always' and I apologize for implying that this is some kind of obsessive-compulsive thing you do literally every time.

However, I will not retract the claim that this is a thing which you do, this practice of making gratuitous sneers toward the US to a degree that is situationally inappropriate, or outright unjustified.

That is your evidence of anti-americanism?

Do you deny that the US is cowardly in not paying reparations for Guantanamo when even states only marginally connected to it do?
Do you deny that US gang members entered the US military in a rate far exceeding the general population? It even got its own wiki page.

All you got so far to point to a systemic campaign of me being anti-american is the second link and even that is more of my impression of US politics than any anti-americanism. At worst, it is me having an outburst at the frustration of the US policies. That does not make anybody an Anti-American. If it does, it would make anybody having a negative opinion of Merkel Anti-German.

So you can fuck right off with this butthurt bullshit and if you continue this I will mod you hard.

Argumentum ad baculum. Truly the mark of a winning rhetorician.

Terralthra wrote:Argumentum ad baculum. Truly the mark of a winning rhetorician.

Tace, penis. You will stay out of this.

Qui tacet consentire videtur. I've nothing to say more than I've already said.

Terralthra wrote:Qui tacet consentire videtur. I've nothing to say more than I've already said.

Ah, so you are the kind of pathetic limp dick who will ignore a mod warning to stay out of a debate because you just want to have the last word. Well, good for you that I am feeling magnanimous today and will not warn you. This time. Any further posts will get you a warning.

What the fuck is it this winter, is there some virus going around that only affects Americans once it has checked the NSA database for their citizenship?

Because this is, what, the third thread where Thanas says something that is mildly critical of the US and a lot less critical than a lot of us have said repeatedly down the years, and YET AGAIN there are a number of Americans acting like they were sodomized with a mop handle coated with extra hot chili concentrate without their consent.

Funny that whenever I bring up similar issues, and I have done so in the past, I don't get nearly this level of pushback or accusations of anti-Americanism. In order to receive that kind of response, I'd have to post the same things in markedly more right wing venues than SDN.

Here's some advice for the butthurt brigade for the future:

1. Grow a thicker skin
2. Learn elementary logic
3. Learn to distinguish between the generic you (which often refers to the nation of the United States in these sort of discussions) and the specific you (which refers to you as the individual)
4. Stock up on baby wipes and some soothing salve in case you (specific, as in referring to the reader of this message) failed to succeed at point #1

Because fuck knows the past 13 or 14 years have given plenty of cause to make acid commentary on the conduct of the US on the world stage, yet this is the shit you get hung up on?

The thread topic is of the general variety "Third world country makes flashy propaganda video, world + dog go *yawn* and ask what's for dinner" and when it's pointed out that similar PR ops are more or less business as usual in all the relevant particulars, an epic shitstorm ensues because a foreigner did not pay sufficient obeisance to American exceptionalism.

Yeah, America is exceptional and for the past decade and a half, for all the wrong bloody (quite often literally) reasons.

Now, does anyone have something relevant to say that was not already said, or should I just HoS this shitfest and horsemanize it?

And if anyone takes exception to this, take it to the admins.

This shitfest is locked pending administrative review.