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Does the definition of "free speech absolutism" cover the right to make statements specifically intended to goad others to violence, e.g., "Kill all Jews!" "Homosexuality is a crime against humanity!" "All black people are criminals!" or "Behead those who insult Islam!" IN ADDITION TO the right to insult people's religious beliefs like this?

It works both ways, people. If you want respect, you must be willing to show other people respect. If you want other people to show restraint, i.e., NOT murder you in cold blood for exercising your rights to free speech, you need to show restraint as well.

Sidewinder wrote:Does the definition of "free speech absolutism" cover the right to make statements specifically intended to goad others to violence, e.g., "Kill all Jews!" "Homosexuality is a crime against humanity!" "All black people are criminals!" or "Behead those who insult Islam!" IN ADDITION TO the right to insult people's religious beliefs like this?

It works both ways, people. If you want respect, you must be willing to show other people respect. If you want other people to show restraint, i.e., NOT murder you in cold blood for exercising your rights to free speech, you need to show restraint as well.

Absolutely false. Inciting violence is different than other expressions of speech. Saying "I do not approve of homosexuality" is one thing, while saying "Homosexuals are an abomination and should be put to death" is completely different. Being offended is never grounds to kill others, especially when said offending speech/depiction cannot be proven to actually be harming anyone. If Muslims could make a case that depictions of Mohammed do cause harm, and provide factual evidence to back up said claim, then an argument could be made.

Respect is a 2-way street - don't go spouting hateful things against other groups if you want people to warmly accept yours.

Akhlut wrote:America and her allies killed over half a million Iraqis in a war that had no point. America funded the Afghan mujahideen which formed the nucleus of al-Qaida and ISIS. The American war in Iraq destabilized the region enough to allow ISIS to come to power and murder tens of thousands of people and destroy priceless historical artifacts from the dawn of human civilizations.

Yes, America is just as bad, if not worse, than Islamic fundamentalists. Often times, the US directly supports Islamic fundamentalists (Saudi Arabia, for instance; the aforementioned Afghan mujahideen).

And, yet, Muslims are demonized for having the gall to be offended over shit like this, despite the fact that often times the best of bad options is Islamic fundamentalism because, hey, it gets results against the West (despite how often the fundamentalists are given support by the West).

But, hey, those third world ragheads just need to act civilized, right?

How the fuck does any of this excuse Jihadist extremists explicitly targeting and killing innocent people?

US foreign policy is just bumbling, ad hoc, and badly thought out, and often results in horrible consequences. We support some militant group today for some ad hoc reason, who turns out to be our enemy tomorrow. We're doing it again in Syria right now. That has nothing to do with attitudes towards freedom of speech or religious expression. Sorry, but the West is actually objectively better than the Islamic world when it comes to things like religious freedom, freedom of expression, and women's rights. All the "but... but... but..." fringe false-equality counter-examples about abortion clinic bombers, Tim McVey and/or thinly-veiled accusations of racism are just red herrings. But maybe if you use the term "raghead" in an ironic fashion some more, your arguments will be more intimidating to any posters here who are overly self-conscious about their attitudes towards race relations.

Channel72 wrote:

Akhlut wrote:America and her allies killed over half a million Iraqis in a war that had no point. America funded the Afghan mujahideen which formed the nucleus of al-Qaida and ISIS. The American war in Iraq destabilized the region enough to allow ISIS to come to power and murder tens of thousands of people and destroy priceless historical artifacts from the dawn of human civilizations.

Yes, America is just as bad, if not worse, than Islamic fundamentalists. Often times, the US directly supports Islamic fundamentalists (Saudi Arabia, for instance; the aforementioned Afghan mujahideen).

And, yet, Muslims are demonized for having the gall to be offended over shit like this, despite the fact that often times the best of bad options is Islamic fundamentalism because, hey, it gets results against the West (despite how often the fundamentalists are given support by the West).

But, hey, those third world ragheads just need to act civilized, right?

How the fuck does any of this excuse Jihadist extremists explicitly targeting and killing innocent people?

US foreign policy is just bumbling, ad hoc, and badly thought out, and often results in horrible consequences. We support some militant group today for some ad hoc reason, who turns out to be our enemy tomorrow. We're doing it again in Syria right now. That has nothing to do with attitudes towards freedom of speech or religious expression. Sorry, but the West is actually objectively better than the Islamic world when it comes to things like religious freedom, freedom of expression, and women's rights. All the "but... but... but..." fringe false-equality counter-examples about abortion clinic bombers, Tim McVey and/or thinly-veiled accusations of racism are just red herrings. But maybe if you use the term "raghead" in an ironic fashion some more, your arguments will be more intimidating to any posters here who are overly self-conscious about their attitudes towards race relations.

Yeah, where did he suggest it was Ok to kill innocent civilians? If you had anything close to actual reading comprehension you'd see that his point is that the U.S. is as bad or worse than any Islamic Fundamentalist Terrorist organization, which is simply an uncomfortable fact for those stupid Americans who like to pretend that everything horrible that has happened in the ME over the past 60-some years happened in some vacuum as opposed to a direct result of US meddling in the region. From the coup in Iran to the invasion of Iraq, it all leads back to the bad old USA. Not that much of the rest of the west doesn't have blood on thier hands as well.

The roots go way, way further back. During World War I, Britain recruited Arabs to support them against the Ottoman Empire, eventually leading to the Arab Revolt which more or less toppled said Empire in the Middle East. Britain managed this recruiting task primarily through promising an Arab homeland in Greater Syria. While making these promises, Britain, France, and Russia were busy making secret agreements how they'd divide up the former Ottoman Empire into zones of control, in many cases drawing the border lines specifically so as to separate ethnic or nationalist identity across borders, making each position too fractious to self-govern.

Many of the Sycot-Pikes border agreements still stand, by the way, and they have had the exact intended effect in Iraq, Syria, Turkey, and other nations. The human cost of those decisions have been staggering, far outweighing US actions in that regard, imo.

Flagg wrote:Yeah, where did he suggest it was Ok to kill innocent civilians? If you had anything close to actual reading comprehension you'd see that his point is that the U.S. is as bad or worse than any Islamic Fundamentalist Terrorist organization, which is simply an uncomfortable fact for those stupid Americans who like to pretend that everything horrible that has happened in the ME over the past 60-some years happened in some vacuum as opposed to a direct result of US meddling in the region. From the coup in Iran to the invasion of Iraq, it all leads back to the bad old USA. Not that much of the rest of the west doesn't have blood on thier hands as well.

Nice history lesson. Yeah, everyone knows the US did evil shit. What does that have to do with a thread about cultural attitudes towards free speech? I know you love pointing out how the US is like, the most evil thing ever, but that has nothing to do with the fact that the Western world is far superior to the Islamic world in terms of attitudes towards freedom of expression and freedom of religion. The Enlightenment has had a lasting impact on the West, and the Middle East never had any similar cultural phenomenon.

But please continue to spew out irrelevant shit about how the US genocided the Native Americans, enslaved Africans, napalmed the Vietnamese, and whatever other shit the US did that has nothing to do with this thread.

Flagg wrote:his point is that the U.S. is as bad or worse than any Islamic Fundamentalist Terrorist organization

What the hell does that even mean? Worse in what way? Body count? The US is a fucking economic behemoth composed of 350 million people, while most Islamic terrorist organizations are composed of a few thousand people at best, with the exception of ISIS. Obviously the US has had more of a negative impact in terms of um... environmental devastation and political turmoil in the Middle East and let's say Central America than Al Qaeda or whatever. So what? It's a meaningless comparison. The US is an enormous entity that has far-reaching interests that go well beyond what ever happens to be going on in the Mideast. Saying the US is "worse" than some small-time terrorist organization is pretty incoherent.

And blaming the US for everything that has happened in the Middle East for the past 60 years is a stupid simplification. The Middle East is a victim of US policy, Soviet policy, British policy, French policy, and stupid sectarian turmoil that has been brewing since way before the end of Ottoman rule. Saudi-backed Wahhabism has been a plague on that region, moreso than anything the US has done outside of Iraq. And the worst, bloodiest, most environmentally catastrophic and politically/socially devastating event that ever happened in the Mideast in the fucking last half-century was the war between Iraq and Iran, a war fought mostly over a border dispute and ancient sectarian tensions that had absolutely zero to do with US or Western meddling.

But whatever. None of this changes the fact that the Islamic world has a fucking horrible track record when it comes to freedom of expression or human rights compared to Western nations, including the US. Waving your hands around and talking about how the US does bad shit too is fucking pointless.

Don't worry, you can say Islam sucks... we all know it does. It doesn't make you a racist or some kind of flag-waving fuckhead. Plus, you can even point out how Islam sucks without having to spew out a 12-page essay about how Christianity/America/Jesus/McDonalds sucks too!

That's because he's in America. He is free to go to the most moderate Muslim country he can think of and give a public speech that Islam is a fairy tale, like Christianity, and see what happens to him. He being an American might protect him though, maybe they'll merely deport him.

Look I understand that ultimately you can trace a direct line to a western colonial empire for a lot of root causes, but that does not change the fact that it sucks and it still actually happens independent of US/western interference. I mean it would be like coming into a thread aboud unit 731 and saying that it really is Perry's fault - if only Japan wasn't afraid of being colonized and didn;t look to Prussia and the British Empire for inspiration.

Edit: I am of mixed mind about this. I've been happy in many cases to highlight western hypocrisy, but also all to often I see "but but the west" used to justify whatever repression/atrocity done by a 3rd World government and it doesn't change that it is wrong, merely that the west has no high horse.