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I imagined they would be a semi-formalised SW version of Knights Errant. Going around the galaxy, trying to help people in need, and reporting back to some kind of authority what they did, or calling for assistance if needed.

Why that, instead of being like all the other knights? Guys who attend noble courts and serve as ambassadors of the leadership?

Like this guy from Shakespere? (Actually the Duke of Exeter, here in his capacity as a Knight of the Garter).

NecronLord wrote:Based particularly on Joruus C'Boath's talk about administering justice, arbitrating and things.

I always thought C'baoth was supposed to be an anomaly for a Jedi, hinted by that bit about him assuming the title of Jedi Master. His personal history of politicking would thus be due more to his own ambition and arrogance.

NecronLord wrote:Why that, instead of being like all the other knights? Guys who attend noble courts and serve as ambassadors of the leadership?

Like this guy from Shakespere? (Actually the Duke of Exeter, here in his capacity as a Knight of the Garter).

It's just the vibe I got. Then again, I knew very little about what Knights actually did when i saw SW.

It's the vibe I got from Kenobi actually describing the Jedi as the "guardians of peace and justice" before the dark times.

Anacronian wrote:This is a bit of a tangent.

Before the Phantom Menace did any of you think the Jedi was actually so embroiled in politics and other facets of the republic?

I personally thought the Jedi would be reclusive living in temples on distant worlds spending their days meditating and contemplating the force, Kind of like Shaolin monks, They were would be regarded with high esteem by the outside world but I thought the guardians of the galaxy was an honorary thing and the republic would have an actual Army/Navy to fight wars rather than relying on Jedi.

Its hard to say, I dont think anybody really thought the Republic was going to be a Confederacy. With a very weak central government.

Just from Obi-Wans statement, “The Jedi were guardians of peace and justice” gave me the idea that they were called in to help out (like what Leia asked him to do).

I just had them pegged as sword wielding space "special" police.

Like a space KGB.

Gandalf wrote:I just had them pegged as sword wielding space "special" police.

Like a space KGB.

Wait the KGB used swords? .. those basterds!

Anacronian wrote:

Gandalf wrote:I just had them pegged as sword wielding space "special" police.

Like a space KGB.

Wait the KGB used swords? .. those basterds!

"Sword and Shield of the Party", IIRC.

Anacronian wrote:This is a bit of a tangent.

Before the Phantom Menace did any of you think the Jedi was actually so embroiled in politics and other facets of the republic?

I personally thought the Jedi would be reclusive living in temples on distant worlds spending their days meditating and contemplating the force, Kind of like Shaolin monks, They were would be regarded with high esteem by the outside world but I thought the guardians of the galaxy was an honorary thing and the republic would have an actual Army/Navy to fight wars rather than relying on Jedi.

Since I was a kid, I always got a strong King Arthur vibe from Star Wars. Even before I know what Arthurian lore was, the theme was still there and in a lot of other things that you could still understand it as a kid. Jedi Knights were Knights, wandering around doing good. Saturday morning cartoon good guys. I never saw them as monks, that vibe was put in more in the prequels than the OT. The small amount of Jedi was again a PT thing, not an OT thing.

When they announced the PT, I assumed we'd see armies of Jedi fighting an army of Boba Fett looking guys. Heck, even the ROTJ novel had an interesting line in it when Luke was on Jabba's barge about to start combat, something akin to "An old Jedi tactic, when surrounded, attack."

I never got the monk vibe till TPM. More of a weird Justice League/Avengers type superhero group in the Star Wars universe.

NecronLord wrote: You don't need a warrant to arrest Jeff Davis.

Was Jefferson Davis the head of state (and legislature) of the nation you supposedly serve? The fact is Heads of State are generally immune to arrests except and when there is a mechanism to do so it generally doesn't boil down to "dude in law enforcement decided to do so." A vote of no confidence, an impeachment, or some other form of formal censure or issue of a warrant are required. Eric Holder can't just barge into the White house and arrest Obama under any circumstance.

I am sure the Galactic Senate has such a mechanism and it is fair to assume it isn't what we see on scene.

I have addressed the issue of head of state immunity earlier in this thread. Even Anakin thinks Palpatine can be arrested. At no point does anyone in the film state the arrest is illegal. No canon evidence exists for head of state immunity, overwhelming canon evidence exists against it.

Heads of state are *viewed* as 'immune' largely because they're able to hide behind layers and layers of bureaucracy. If you want to arrest the actual Head of State, you better have a damn good reason or catch them red-handed. For example, if President Obama was tooling around DC by himself and parked in front of a fire hydrant, damn straight he'd get ticketed for it.

Palpatine is not immune to arrest; but the nefarious nature of his crime (being a Sith Lord) is... difficult to discuss with outsiders. So it's quite easy for him to paint the Jedi as criminals themselves for trying to arrest him.

The idea that heads of state cannot be arrested or prosecuted without impeachment or special authorization of a representative body is in fact a doctrine in several real nations, including Britain, France and the United States. But to believe it applies in the Galactic Republic requires that we believe everyone in the Windu scenes including Palpatine (who doesn't even mention such a thing in the book) is thunderingly dumb. The only evidence is that Palpatine calls his arrest treason.

Looking at the Novel, there is a longer exchange:

PALPATINE: I beg your pardon? What I am? When last I checked, I was Supreme Chancellor of the Republic you are sworn to serve. I hope I misunderstand what you mean by custody, Master Windu. It smacks of treason.

MACE WINDU: You're under arrest.

PALPATINE: Really, Master Windu, you cannot be serious. On what charge?

MACE WINDU: You're a Sith Lord!

PALPATINE: Am I? Even if true, that's hardly a crime. My philosophical outlook is a personal matter. In fact-the last time I read the Constitution, anyway-we have very strict laws against this type of persecution. So I ask you again: what is my alleged crime? How do you expect to justify your mutiny before the Senate? Or do you intend to arrest the Senate as well?

Palpatine himself doesn't even bother to mention any immunities to arrest he might have - he asks to know what crime they're arresting him for, implicitly demonstrating they have the power to arrest him. And in the novel he's speaking for the benefit of a recording he intends to play publically. You'd think he'd mention such a thing.

NecronLord wrote:I have addressed the issue of head of state immunity earlier in this thread. Even Anakin thinks Palpatine can be arrested. At no point does anyone in the film state the arrest is illegal. No canon evidence exists for head of state immunity, overwhelming canon evidence exists against it.

Actually you are just rehashing the arguements yiu made in 2007 and they are no more valid than they were then. You were shot down in detail, you have brought nothing new today.

I always assumed that by the TPM the Jedi Order has become essentially a semi-official executive arm of the Senate. That's why they were made Generals of the Republic Army. The Senate financed them (I think) and the Jedi have trained themselves to be servants of the Republic. They have formed their ideology to that of a servant as well, or so I think.

Anacronian wrote:This is a bit of a tangent.

Before the Phantom Menace did any of you think the Jedi was actually so embroiled in politics and other facets of the republic?

.

I envisioned them as being something like the Knight's Templar or Knight Hospitalar. A Chivalric Order of force users that was semi independent of the Republic but would be called in as a sort of US Marshal/ Circuit Court Judge to keep the peace in lawless areas.

I thought Kenobi 's rank of General was a rank within the Jedi Order. So there would be Jedi Generals, Colonels , regular infantry. I figured he met Anakin while fighting along non Jedi troops and recruited him.

NecronLord wrote:I have addressed the issue of head of state immunity earlier in this thread. Even Anakin thinks Palpatine can be arrested. At no point does anyone in the film state the arrest is illegal. No canon evidence exists for head of state immunity, overwhelming canon evidence exists against it.

Even granting this, they were still pretty damn stupid about it. They were arresting a sitting head of state based solely on a single Knight - who wasn't even fully trusted by the Council! - walking in and saying, "I think he's the Sith Lord we've been looking for." He thinks he's the Sith Lord. Not he knows but he thinks. And what's his supporting evidence? Basically nothing. Palpatine knows about the Force, big whoop. There aren't non-Jedi Force scholars in the galaxy? Hobbyists? Palpatine never used any Force abilities or even pulled a lightsaber on Anakin, so where's the proof he's even Force sensitive to begin with?

It's like an FBI agent walking into the Hoover building and saying he "thinks" Obama was the secret mastermind behind Al-Qaeda hours after the SEALs capped Bin Laden. Even if the FBI had the legal authority to arrest POTUS, do you really think that shit would fly?

Windu acted irrationally, and even if the courts weren't corrupt it's incredibly dubious they would have gotten a conviction based upon Anakin's testimony alone. If Jedi testimony was that powerful, you'd think Qui-Gon standing up in the Senate and saying that yep, the Trade Federation totally invaded Naboo (he even rode one of the drop ships down to the planet!) would have ended that debate pretty quick. But it didn't happen, and AFAIK nobody even asked the Jedi about it, outside of possibly the Council, who seemed to care less about Naboo than they did Anakin and Darth Maul anyway.

And remember, all that old EU stuff is gone, so what evidence do they have (in new Canon) of the Sith conspiracy? I can't recall all of TCW but did they ever track it as far as the Supreme Chancellor's office, or was it more vague than that? And even if they did, well, I still don't think Anakin's claims alone would ever be enough even assuming the Republic's courts were impartial.

Patroklos wrote:

NecronLord wrote:I have addressed the issue of head of state immunity earlier in this thread. Even Anakin thinks Palpatine can be arrested. At no point does anyone in the film state the arrest is illegal. No canon evidence exists for head of state immunity, overwhelming canon evidence exists against it.

Actually you are just rehashing the arguements yiu made in 2007 and they are no more valid than they were then. You were shot down in detail, you have brought nothing new today.

And my remark back then was 'talk about Shit the Sourcebook' IE to criticize the EU basis of Publius' arguments as being not in keeping with the film. Things out of "holonet news," a promotional website FFS.

Now the day has come when the majority of his evidence is decreed non canon, and has no more relevance than a fanfic you might happen to write and post here. So no, Pubius' rebuttal, linked to, was based upon EU material.

That rebuttal is now worthless.

RogueIce wrote:Even granting this, they were still pretty damn stupid about it. They were arresting a sitting head of state based solely on a single Knight - who wasn't even fully trusted by the Council! - walking in and saying, "I think he's the Sith Lord we've been looking for." He thinks he's the Sith Lord. Not he knows but he thinks. And what's his supporting evidence? Basically nothing. Palpatine knows about the Force, big whoop. There aren't non-Jedi Force scholars in the galaxy? Hobbyists? Palpatine never used any Force abilities or even pulled a lightsaber on Anakin, so where's the proof he's even Force sensitive to begin with?

It's like an FBI agent walking into the Hoover building and saying he "thinks" Obama was the secret mastermind behind Al-Qaeda hours after the SEALs capped Bin Laden. Even if the FBI had the legal authority to arrest POTUS, do you really think that shit would fly?

They were already aware that, as per the film dialogue 'the dark side surrounds the Cancellor.' We already know they were looking for another Sith Lord.

Windu acted irrationally, and even if the courts weren't corrupt it's incredibly dubious they would have gotten a conviction based upon Anakin's testimony alone. If Jedi testimony was that powerful, you'd think Qui-Gon standing up in the Senate and saying that yep, the Trade Federation totally invaded Naboo (he even rode one of the drop ships down to the planet!) would have ended that debate pretty quick. But it didn't happen, and AFAIK nobody even asked the Jedi about it, outside of possibly the Council, who seemed to care less about Naboo than they did Anakin and Darth Maul anyway.

Indeed. It was unwise and foolish.

But stepping aside from the much beloved legalistic argument beloved of this site, puts us into 'the right course of action' argument, which is obviously irrefutable. Palpatine was well on his way to becoming a tyrant, and very obviously acting to subvert the liberties of the people, removing him is transparently just, outside the context of the law, assuming you value those liberties.

What they should have done, is brought the entire Jedi Council back to Coruscant and then engaged him. He had trouble with Yoda. Yoda and Windu together would be more than enough.

On a moral basis alone, putting a lightsaber through Palpatine once you are certain that he is a sith lord (as reasonably intuited by your supernatural senses and his confession via Anakin, and definitively proven by how he fights) is clearly morally acceptable, regardless of its legality.

And remember, all that old EU stuff is gone, so what evidence do they have (in new Canon) of the Sith conspiracy? I can't recall all of TCW but did they ever track it as far as the Supreme Chancellor's office, or was it more vague than that? And even if they did, well, I still don't think Anakin's claims alone would ever be enough even assuming the Republic's courts were impartial.

No, but once the arrest is made, a complete search of his apartments and other comings and goings will find, among other things, demonstrable evidence that he's running the separatists. Unless we think there's no evidence of his communications to them. Which is blatantly absurd.

Put another way, people only ever complain about Windu's attempted arrest, because Windu at first, tried to address the matter in a lawful fashion. No one ever complains about Yoda's attack, which given that Palpatine has actually declared himself Emperor and gotten (in the novel) the senate to sign off on letting him write a new constitution, is no doubt illegal. Saying he was 'unwise' to move without a complete case is foolish. He was unwise to move without more force, he overestimated his own abilities.

NecronLord wrote:Put another way, people only ever complain about Windu's attempted arrest, because Windu at first, tried to address the matter in a lawful fashion. No one ever complains about Yoda's attack, which given that Palpatine has actually declared himself Emperor and gotten (in the novel) the senate to sign off on letting him write a new constitution, is no doubt illegal. Saying he was 'unwise' to move without a complete case is foolish. He was unwise to move without more force, he overestimated his own abilities.

I wonder if people ignore this simply because it was Yoda and everyone loves the character.

Though as to recalling Jedi, I actually think a bigger mistake was not bringing back Obi-Wan rather than Yoda. While Yoda would have been useful in fighting Palpatine, Obi-Wan could have stopped Anakin from intervening. Mace Windu largely won on his own, though it is debatable whether that would have been possible without Anakin. I think that while Mace Windu did have the upper hand, the timing of Anakin's appearance and Palpatine's defeat is not a coincidence. This is largely what was stated in the ROTS novelization.

The novelization also stated that the reason that Yoda went to Kashyyk was that they were looking to draw out the Sith and realized that with both Mace Windu and Yoda on Coruscant he would be unlikely to make a final move. This does cause their actions to make more sense, it would have been nice if this point were made better in the movie.

What was there "lawful" about Mace Windu's little stunt? He goes to the supreme chancellor of the republic he has sworn to protect and draws a weapon on him in his private chambers solely on the word of another Jedi. For any outside observer this does look like an attempted coup rather than a lawful arrest. They were not pressed for time, so what was the rush anyway? There were a million ways Windu could have done it smoother. Like gathering information about Palpatine's whereabouts during the war and his communication protocols and then accusing Palpatine of being a Sith in public and demanding a Midichlorian check. At the very least he could have taken members of the actual law-enforcement arm of the Republic with him (which isn't solely the Jedi, see Clone Wars: Senate Murders).
Palpatine's plot could only go forward because Windu was a massive idiot. It was Palpatine who had time working against him, as a massive, drawn-out war that seemed to never end would eventually cause his popularity to plummet and make his planned transition to an authoritarian system all the harder.

Metahive wrote:What was there "lawful" about Mace Windu's little stunt? He goes to the supreme chancellor of the republic he has sworn to protect and draws a weapon on him in his private chambers solely on the word of another Jedi. For any outside observer this does look like an attempted coup rather than a lawful arrest. They were not pressed for time, so what was the rush anyway? There were a million ways Windu could have done it smoother. Like gathering information about Palpatine's whereabouts during the war and his communication protocols and then accusing Palpatine of being a Sith in public and demanding a Midichlorian check. At the very least he could have taken members of the actual law-enforcement arm of the Republic with him (which isn't solely the Jedi, see Clone Wars: Senate Murders).
Palpatine's plot could only go forward because Windu was a massive idiot. It was Palpatine who had time working against him, as a massive, drawn-out war that seemed to never end would eventually cause his popularity to plummet and make his planned transition to an authoritarian system all the harder.

That only makes sense if Palpatine didn't have the means to end the war whenever it was convenient for him...

Whether it was legal or not, doesn't anyone see how it was downright stupid for the Jedi to try and arrest Palpatine like they did? I always thought the smarter move would have been for the Jedi council to address the Senate and make their accusations public first.