StarDestroyer.Net BBS

It's the EU's fault for making Jedi powers godlike. But, since we see it, I'll have to come up with an explanation. The ISD's prbably moved when the force was used to seize controls, not move the entire ship. That' my theory, but I prefer it to what the EU's turning the force into.

I was reading the AOTC novelisation last night and found this:

"Master Yoda how many Jedi are available to go to Geonosis?"
"Throughout the galaxy, thousands of Jedi there are," the diminutive Jedi Master replied. "To send on a special mission only two hundred are available."
"With all due respect for the Jedi Order, that doesn't sound like enough," Bail Organa said.

At this point I don't think that the Jedi have revealed to anybody outside of the Order that their powers are weakened. Though I suppose that's open to debate.

Nevertheless, Bail Organa, one of the most important people in the galaxy, someone undoubtedly highly aware of the abilities of the Jedi, does not think that two hundred Jedi will be able to stop the droid army.

Changed my mind.

I think Morte's arguments are very well-reasoned. I too think that the Jedi are as powerful as the EU makes them out to be- the examples of Vaders and the Emperor's lack of power are the most damning.

Doesn't bother me too much- Jedi are cool but they're not gods.

You can still use the EU as an escape clause though but I don't think the reduction in power would be that drastic.

A quickie post, Dark Empire, it had some kickass force powers and the Emperor reborn, Lucas said this was his favorite EU series, so I doubt Lucas disagrees with the powers of the Jedi that are displayed...

Logically it's only so much they can do on the screen due to budgets...

Excuse me, do you even know what canon means? Canon refers to the films, the novel adaptations of the films and the radio dramatisations of the films, in that order.

And the ICS books and Visual Dictionaries too fall into that category.

That's it, nothing else. The rest of the Star Wars 'universe' is considered official, but not canon.

Official means treat as canon unless directly contradicted.

Anything official that contradicts canon should be considered to be irrelevant for the purposes of an argument. If the books contradict the movies, the movies take precedence.

Only explicit direct contradictions will do, and you'll see that proving such a thing here is nigh impossible.
Also the theory wich creates the least amount of contradictions is the one that is superior.
Actually trying to disprove anything will only result in wasted time.

People first of all if Yoda could move an X-wing then its obviously possible that much larger objects could be moved with the Force. The reason Luke failed was because he didnt think it was possible. As for the Jedi fighting all those droids and losing...you have to concentrate with the Force and then use it...such as Force shoving objects etc...when you have a hail of blaster fire coming at you continuously its rather hard to get your focus. Jedi and Sith are living creatures...no one is infallible. Everyone says how powerful the Emperor was etc...remember that Yoda said something to Luke about seeing the future and how its clouded and always moving. Force can give insight and enormous powers but even then the person using those powers is still a mortal.

By the way regarding Darth Maul and how he lost by a Kenobi...I read the Ep1 novelization regarding the fight and the Star Wars.com site backs it up. First Kenobi got thrown off the side BECAUSE he was using anger and Maul fed off of that anger and then used the Force to shove him over. Second, Kenobi killed him because he calmed himself thus sort of shielding his thoughts from Maul. Thats why on the one shot of Maul after he was sort of hitting the one side with his lightsaber with Kenobi dangling off...that weird look of 'bewilderment' comes across Maul's face. This is not exactly information obtained from outside sources..you can see it in the films. There are no captions to illustrate that those events are going on but you can still see it.

Someone commented on Vader losing to Luke in a lightsaber battle...come on. Vader was trying to turn Luke to the dark side not kill him. It was clear in the movies (TESB) that Vader wanted Luke to be with him. Vader was just fighting a defensive battle trying to let Luke give himself completely to the dark side. Granted I am sure Vader was surprised at the intensity of Luke's attack but the point remains that from watching the movies you already know that Vader and the Emperor wanted Luke to turn.

Lord_Vader wrote:People first of all if Yoda could move an X-wing then its obviously possible that much larger objects could be moved with the Force. The reason Luke failed was because he didnt think it was possible. As for the Jedi fighting all those droids and losing...you have to concentrate with the Force and then use it...such as Force shoving objects etc...when you have a hail of blaster fire coming at you continuously its rather hard to get your focus. Jedi and Sith are living creatures...no one is infallible. Everyone says how powerful the Emperor was etc...remember that Yoda said something to Luke about seeing the future and how its clouded and always moving. Force can give insight and enormous powers but even then the person using those powers is still a mortal.

Well, you do have to account the fact that Yoda and Mace discovered that the Jedis ability to use the force has diminished has a lot of bearing regarding the aftermath of the Geonosis battle.

[/quote]
By the way regarding Darth Maul and how he lost by a Kenobi...I read the Ep1 novelization regarding the fight and the Star Wars.com site backs it up. First Kenobi got thrown off the side BECAUSE he was using anger and Maul fed off of that anger and then used the Force to shove him over. Second, Kenobi killed him because he calmed himself thus sort of shielding his thoughts from Maul. Thats why on the one shot of Maul after he was sort of hitting the one side with his lightsaber with Kenobi dangling off...that weird look of 'bewilderment' comes across Maul's face. This is not exactly information obtained from outside sources..you can see it in the films. There are no captions to illustrate that those events are going on but you can still see it. [/quote] I'll agree with you on that 100%

[/quote]
Someone commented on Vader losing to Luke in a lightsaber battle...come on. Vader was trying to turn Luke to the dark side not kill him. It was clear in the movies (TESB) that Vader wanted Luke to be with him. Vader was just fighting a defensive battle trying to let Luke give himself completely to the dark side. Granted I am sure Vader was surprised at the intensity of Luke's attack but the point remains that from watching the movies you already know that Vader and the Emperor wanted Luke to turn.[/quote] Yeah but, I always thought it was implied that Luke was stronger than Vader in Force potential. (or even Leia if she learned the Force at the same time as Luke). In the Novelization and the comic is was futher implied that Luke was the stronger of the two. I'll try to cite it later.

THEHOOLIGANJEDI wrote:

Lord_Vader wrote:People first of all if Yoda could move an X-wing then its obviously possible that much larger objects could be moved with the Force. The reason Luke failed was because he didnt think it was possible. As for the Jedi fighting all those droids and losing...you have to concentrate with the Force and then use it...such as Force shoving objects etc...when you have a hail of blaster fire coming at you continuously its rather hard to get your focus. Jedi and Sith are living creatures...no one is infallible. Everyone says how powerful the Emperor was etc...remember that Yoda said something to Luke about seeing the future and how its clouded and always moving. Force can give insight and enormous powers but even then the person using those powers is still a mortal.

Well, you do have to account the fact that Yoda and Mace discovered that the Jedis ability to use the force has diminished has a lot of bearing regarding the aftermath of the Geonosis battle.

By the way regarding Darth Maul and how he lost by a Kenobi...I read the Ep1 novelization regarding the fight and the Star Wars.com site backs it up. First Kenobi got thrown off the side BECAUSE he was using anger and Maul fed off of that anger and then used the Force to shove him over. Second, Kenobi killed him because he calmed himself thus sort of shielding his thoughts from Maul. Thats why on the one shot of Maul after he was sort of hitting the one side with his lightsaber with Kenobi dangling off...that weird look of 'bewilderment' comes across Maul's face. This is not exactly information obtained from outside sources..you can see it in the films. There are no captions to illustrate that those events are going on but you can still see it.

I'll agree with you on that 100%

Someone commented on Vader losing to Luke in a lightsaber battle...come on. Vader was trying to turn Luke to the dark side not kill him. It was clear in the movies (TESB) that Vader wanted Luke to be with him. Vader was just fighting a defensive battle trying to let Luke give himself completely to the dark side. Granted I am sure Vader was surprised at the intensity of Luke's attack but the point remains that from watching the movies you already know that Vader and the Emperor wanted Luke to turn.

Yeah but, I always thought it was implied that Luke was stronger than Vader in Force potential. (or even Leia if she learned the Force at the same time as Luke). In the Novelization and the comic is was futher implied that Luke was the stronger of the two. I'll try to cite it later.

Btw I also always thought that Luke and Leia were always Equal in force potential.

I didnt take into account that Yoda had said the Jedi were complacent. Thinking back on it now, we did see in Ep1 that Obi-Wan was using force-push a lot, however, when the Droid-Dekas (the droids with shields) came and started opening fire at the start of the movie they just stood there instead of trying to force push them. Simply from watching the movie I can tell that the concentration needed to intercept and deflect blaster shots must be high enough to prevent Qui-Gon and Obi from flinging those droids away. As for what Yoda said again with the Jedi and their abilities diminishing...I attribute that to a millenia of laziness.

Not to bring out historical examples but its always been shown that an Empire or country that gets complacent usually starts to erode away morally and 'physically' so to speak in terms of military power and economic power etc...My understanding is that the Jedi since they dont have any clear-cut bad guys they had to deal with in a 1000 yrs have simply gotten arrogant and complacent.

Lord_Vader wrote:I didnt take into account that Yoda had said the Jedi were complacent. Thinking back on it now, we did see in Ep1 that Obi-Wan was using force-push a lot, however, when the Droid-Dekas (the droids with shields) came and started opening fire at the start of the movie they just stood there instead of trying to force push them. Simply from watching the movie I can tell that the concentration needed to intercept and deflect blaster shots must be high enough to prevent Qui-Gon and Obi from flinging those droids away. As for what Yoda said again with the Jedi and their abilities diminishing...I attribute that to a millenia of laziness.

The Jedi's ability to "see" with the force was diminished, not their ability to run around and such. If the abilities of all the Jedi to fight had diminished, they would have known about it long before they learned about the clone army.


Aaron

Aaron2 wrote:

Lord_Vader wrote:I didnt take into account that Yoda had said the Jedi were complacent. Thinking back on it now, we did see in Ep1 that Obi-Wan was using force-push a lot, however, when the Droid-Dekas (the droids with shields) came and started opening fire at the start of the movie they just stood there instead of trying to force push them. Simply from watching the movie I can tell that the concentration needed to intercept and deflect blaster shots must be high enough to prevent Qui-Gon and Obi from flinging those droids away. As for what Yoda said again with the Jedi and their abilities diminishing...I attribute that to a millenia of laziness.

The Jedi's ability to "see" with the force was diminished, not their ability to run around and such. If the abilities of all the Jedi to fight had diminished, they would have known about it long before they learned about the clone army.


Aaron

Well not exactly, I mean in the battle there are soo many tactic they could have used to hold back the droids, Force runs, Deflecting blasters via the Force, etc. but they didn't or were unable to.

Well not exactly, I mean in the battle there are soo many tactic they could have used to hold back the droids, Force runs, Deflecting blasters via the Force, etc. but they didn't or were unable to.

The old school Jedi haven't been in any sort of large scale battle for centuries. They don't have much or any kind of combat experience. There is a world of difference between calm training and combat conditions.

The modern Jedi of the EU have had a lot of combat training. Many of them have had years of combat training and experience. The direction their abilities were focused in may go along way towards explaining the disparity in fighting ability.

Remember that, occording to your precious EU that a group of about a dozen Jedi apprentices managed to propel an entire Star Destroyer out the Yavin system

It was a group of about twenty ISDs. It was a group of a dozen or two Jedi's; some of them full fledged Jedi Knights. It required the intense concentration of all the Jedi involved and was done under relative calm. Even then it burnt to a crisp the Jedi controling the link and exhausted the others. And exhausting yourself under comat conditions is a really bad idea. This obviously an extreme example and it was a partial sucess.

Stormbringer wrote:

Well not exactly, I mean in the battle there are soo many tactic they could have used to hold back the droids, Force runs, Deflecting blasters via the Force, etc. but they didn't or were unable to.

The old school Jedi haven't been in any sort of large scale battle for centuries. They don't have much or any kind of combat experience. There is a world of difference between calm training and combat conditions.

"Agressive negotiations : negotiations with a lightsabre"

It apears to me that Old Republic Jedi were no strangers to combat, at least small unit combat. So much so that they have a euphamism for it. Even if your claim that Old Republic Jedi were out of practice is true, that in no way can account for the increase in Jedi power in EU by several orders of magnitude.


Aaron

Allright, a few points:

It was 45 IDSs thrown in Darksaber

Vader's loss of power is quite easily explained by the fact that he was now only 1/4 as powerful as he was as a youth.

There were 200 Jedi and thousands of droids. Quantity is it's own form of quality people. It is no great suprise they failed.

Of course Yoda couldn't do as much when he got older, I'd love to see you do the things you did at age 20 when you are 60. Now imagine the difference of dying and being 900 years old.

I would really like to see a group of people try to fight with swords in a coherent and coordinated fashion. About the only way to do it is cover the other's back, which is what the Jedi were forced into and is a really bad idea against ranged weapons.

Magneato is a whiny bitch compared to Carnage

The quantum singularities created by the Vong are mini black holes. It doesn't seem to fit what we know, but that is what they are. Deal with it.

Some of the "exagerated" feats in the EU are actually similar and possibly easier compared to the movies (Naga Sadow and the solar flares; come on, a buch of hydrogen vs that big ass crane, the hydrogen is easier to shift)

Now then, on topic:

This is really an odd thread, when you consider that one of the things that most authors have to do is weaken the force users (Yslarimi) because uberheros are too difficult to write. A number of times in the EU have involved Jedi being trapped on a roof or cliff, something Anakin showed was no problem. However, just dealing with it like that hurts the plot. The only times the Jedi have been shown to have uberpowers are things KJA related (yes, he had alot of input on Dark Empire), or when the Jedi combine their powers (the spirits in VOTJ, or the Sith in JvsS), and frankly the latter makes sense.

In response to the topic of the strength of the Force, it is very simple: There is no limit. The Force is all power. The limiting factor is the person wielding the Force. Think of it like wire and a generator. The generator has all the power you could need, but you can only use as much as you can draw through that wire.

I agree with what Ender said..especially the last part about the limiting factor being the person. My original point about the X-wing was meant to show the concept of scale and what Yoda said. Moving a tennis ball with the force and then an X-wing really there really isnt any difference...just in your mind.

It's really hard to judge how powerful the Jedi are from the movies. That is why there is so much disagreement among authors what they can do and what they cannot do. In the SW book I am trying to write, I worked hard to make the Jedi powerful, but I also tried to make sure that their enemies could defeat them if they had a large numbers advantage. I also tried to make it clear that different Jedi are more powerful than others. The narrator in my book is far, far stronger than either his final master, or his best friend, but both of those characters have their own strengths and weaknesses, and all of them clearly are deserving of the title "Jedi."

I tend to favor stronger Jedi than most of the authors, who tend to downplay the Jedi's abilities to give non-Jedi characters more of a chance, and to make it seem more as if everyone is important, and it is not just the Jedi defeating their enemies. Since my book really doesn't deal with non-Jedi, I don't have to worry about that.

Incidentally, the Jedi in the movies seem to be less powerful with telekinesis than SOME of the books say, but they also seem to be much more capable of empowering themselves than most the books give them credit for. Usually I don't really notice, but in The Approaching Storm and, to a lesser extent, in Darth Maul, Shadow Hunter it really bothered me how wussified the Jedi were. Also, when Jedi come into conflict with other Force users, they are much less capable of using their powers than if they are in conflict with weaker characters. The fact that Luke, Obi-Wan, Qui-Gon, and Darth Maul were able to use so many powers and move so quickly even when in conflict with other Jedi indicates only a fraction of their true power against non-Jedi.

I don't see why a jedi figthting a non jedi would be such a problem. I mean AOTC showed that a non jedi can do pretty well against a moderately powered jedi.

une wrote:I don't see why a jedi figthting a non jedi would be such a problem. I mean AOTC showed that a non jedi can do pretty well against a moderately powered jedi.

It would not be unless the non-Jedi had a huge numbers advantage.

His Divine Shadow wrote:And the ICS books and Visual Dictionaries too fall into that category.

No, I'm afraid they don't.

His Divine Shadow wrote:Official means treat as canon unless directly contradicted.

No, it doesn't. Canon is canon, official is official. Official is never canon. Use 'official' sources in arguments all you want if its not contradicted, but don't call it canon.

His Divine Shadow wrote:Only explicit direct contradictions will do

This I see as a matter of preference. To me, if the movies implicitly contradict EU material then the EU material is discarded. I guess others have different views. Still, for this paticular matter I still think there are far too many contradictions with movies to accept all the uber-Force powers there are in the EU.

His Divine Shadow wrote:Also the theory wich creates the least amount of contradictions is the one that is superior.

Again, personal preference. To me the theory that fits best with the movies is the superior theory. You can usually find EU material to fit any theory anyway seeing how bloody much of it there is.

Lord_Vader wrote:People first of all if Yoda could move an X-wing then its obviously possible that much larger objects could be moved with the Force.

Why? How did you come up with that? Just because I can pick up a brick doesn't mean that I can pick up a car. But I see what you're getting at... the Force provides power, its up to the person to wield it... I'll deal with that one in a minute.

Lord_Vader wrote:As for the Jedi fighting all those droids and losing...you have to concentrate with the Force and then use it...such as Force shoving objects etc...when you have a hail of blaster fire coming at you continuously its rather hard to get your focus. Jedi and Sith are living creatures...no one is infallible

Your right... we have evidence that the Jedi are easily defeated by superior numbers. We can assume that their fighting abilities are rather limited for people who are supposed to be the peace-keepers of the galaxy - thus the need for an army in the first place. If the Jedi were so powerful then there wouldn't be a need for a 'grand army of the Republic'. It seems to me that few people in the Star Wars galaxy have much faith in the Jedi's abilities.

Lord_Vader wrote:By the way regarding Darth Maul and how he lost by a Kenobi...I read the Ep1 novelization regarding the fight and the Star Wars.com site backs it up. First Kenobi got thrown off the side BECAUSE he was using anger and Maul fed off of that anger and then used the Force to shove him over. Second, Kenobi killed him because he calmed himself thus sort of shielding his thoughts from Maul. Thats why on the one shot of Maul after he was sort of hitting the one side with his lightsaber with Kenobi dangling off...that weird look of 'bewilderment' comes across Maul's face. This is not exactly information obtained from outside sources..you can see it in the films. There are no captions to illustrate that those events are going on but you can still see it.

Supporting the fact that the Sith are no more powerful than the Jedi.

Lord_Vader wrote:Someone commented on Vader losing to Luke in a lightsaber battle...come on. Vader was trying to turn Luke to the dark side not kill him. It was clear in the movies (TESB) that Vader wanted Luke to be with him. Vader was just fighting a defensive battle trying to let Luke give himself completely to the dark side. Granted I am sure Vader was surprised at the intensity of Luke's attack but the point remains that from watching the movies you already know that Vader and the Emperor wanted Luke to turn.

None of this changes the fact that Darth Vader was defeated by a boy with minimal training. If Vader was fighting defensively to get Luke to turn to the dark side then how is it that he was defeated? If your theory were correct then surely Vader would increase his intensity to keep from being defeated. He didn't. He was beaten by Luke.

Lord_Vader wrote: the person using those powers is still a mortal.

Basically you're supporting my argument. The Force may provide the ability to do all manner of things. But not even the most poweful Force users (Yoda, Palpatine) seem to able to tap that potential. Therefore, it's pretty safe to assume that if the most respected Jedi from 800 hundred years and the man who single-handedly turned over a 10,000 year old system of government can't then no Jedi or Sith should be able to.

Ender wrote: It was 45 IDSs thrown in Darksaber

45!!! This is just becoming ridiculous.

Ender wrote:Vader's loss of power is quite easily explained by the fact that he was now only 1/4 as powerful as he was as a youth.

By power do you mean combat ability? I can understand that he would lost a lot of combat ability but the state of his body shouldn't make much difference to his ability to manipulate the Force.

Ender wrote:There were 200 Jedi and thousands of droids. Quantity is it's own form of quality people. It is no great suprise they failed.

Exactly. I say it time and again, it seems that Jedi aren't particularly powerful in combat. They are special because of their ability to forsee the future and such.

Ender wrote:The quantum singularities created by the Vong are mini black holes. It doesn't seem to fit what we know, but that is what they are. Deal with it.

This is another issue, but, "deal with it"? I thought the point of forums like this was to not just "deal with it" but come up with rational answers to questions. The fact is that whatever dovin basals create cannot be black holes. They're something else and 'black hole' is just a convenient way of describing it.

Ender wrote:In response to the topic of the strength of the Force, it is very simple: There is no limit. The Force is all power. The limiting factor is the person wielding the Force

This I can accept. But, like I said above, movie evidence seems to show that there is a limit to how far a person can wield the Force.

Now, to sum up. It seems to me that for the past page of the thread we've been arguing over minor details. To my mind nobody has really come up with a satisfactory way to reconcile the limits of the Force we see in the movies with much of the Force abilities we see in the EU.

No, I'm afraid they don't

Canon policy > you
ICS and the VD is canon because canon policy dictates that it's so, it's the same with the novellizations and scripts, because they all work directly in conjuction with the movie and therefore the official story of SW.

"Canon refers to an authoritative list of books that the Lucas Licensing editors consider an authentic part of the official Star Wars history"
This includes the novellizations, Radio Dramatizations, scripts and any books based directly on the movie in question, wich means the ICS and Visual Dictionary.

No, it doesn't. Canon is canon, official is official. Official is never canon. Use 'official' sources in arguments all you want if its not contradicted, but don't call it canon.

I don't, I say TREAT it as canon, not that it is, what is meant by treating it as canon means

This I see as a matter of preference.

[Dredd]The LAW[/Dredd] doesn't.

Still, for this paticular matter I still think there are far too many contradictions with movies to accept all the uber-Force powers there are in the EU

I don't really see any contradictions between the movies and EU...

Again, personal preference. To me the theory that fits best with the movies is the superior theory. You can usually find EU material to fit any theory anyway seeing how bloody much of it there is.

No, again it is the [Dredd]The LAW[/Dredd], because anything else than this is personal preference, the only objective way is the one I have lined out.

I'll quote good ole Ubiqtorate(who does not exist):

When evaluating conflicting evidence, it is invariably preferable that the conflicting sources be rationalised with as little alteration of the actual evidence as possible. To wit: If it is possible to rationalise the incidents without changing anything in the sources, then that is the superior rationalisation. To do otherwise is to disregard the evidence itself, in favour of what one believes the evidence should be.

Simple as that really, to decide personally that some evidence should be thrown out is highly subjective and personal, to make all evidence fit(like a scientist observing evidence and making that fit to reach a conclusion) is the only objective way, wheter one likes it or not.
And I don't think your being objective.

And also remember the force interference point in AOTC, it's rather obvious why GL put it in, because making all those pretty force powers costs alot of money and he doesn't want the EU contradicted, as he himself said one, he loved the Dark Empire series and they got some of the most Uber force powers as of yet.

Also, why are Dark Jedi / Sith not as powerfull in that era? It's easy, official material alredy explained that most of this dark knowledge was lost eons ago, Emperor Palpatine in Dark Empire found new ways to harness the force, and in doing so, recovered much lost knowledge.

[quote]It would not be unless the non-Jedi had a huge numbers advantage.[/qoute]

I don't think we're speaking on the right frequency. I'm saying that a single skilled non jedi could take down a single jedi. Not every jedi mind you, but any skilled and resourceful non jedi should be able to defeat a jedi.

And I say that because going by the movies, there is pretty much nothing that a jedi can do with the Force, save for the precognitive stuff, that can't be copied using high level tech. So I really have to say that I wonder where this invincible jedi thing came from.

His Divine Shadow wrote:Canon policy > you
ICS and the VD is canon because canon policy dictates that it's so, it's the same with the novellizations and scripts, because they all work directly in conjuction with the movie and therefore the official story of SW.

"Canon refers to an authoritative list of books that the Lucas Licensing editors consider an authentic part of the official Star Wars history"
This includes the novellizations, Radio Dramatizations, scripts and any books based directly on the movie in question, wich means the ICS and Visual Dictionary.

Who said I was greater than canon policy? Okay, I have to apoligise, I hadn't heard about the ICSs and VDs being canon and the reference I was using stated that only movies, novels and radio dramatisations were canon. The one problem I have with the VDs being canon is that there are places where they are self-contradictory. For example, I was looking through them yesterday and looked at the R2-D2 reference in both the OT VD and the AOTC VD:

OT VD:
- the small circle under the big black 'eye' or R2 is labelled as a processor state indicator and the pair of rectangular 'displays' to the left of it are labelled logic function display.
- the legs on R2 are a little away from the body.
- under R2, where his third leg retracts there is a rectangular space for the leg to retract into.
- the brown cable on the bottom of R2's legs are labelled powerbus cables.
- (this one is particularly difficult to describe) on the inside of R2's legs, down the bottom, there is one little 'beam' (best description I can think of).

AOTC VD:
- the rectangular displays are now 'processor state indicators', not 'logic function displays', a function previously attributed to a different part of R2!
- R2's legs are pretty much directly next to his body.
- under R2, where the third leg retracts there is now a circular area to retract into!
- the brown cables are now 'sensory impulse cables'!
- on the bottom of R2's legs there are two little beams, and those beams don't line up with the 'holes' on the OT R2.

Take a look for yourself - the R2s are obviously two different models. So if both VDs are treated equally as canon, which one is right?

His Divine Shadow wrote:I say TREAT it as canon

Ok, lets not start arguing over semantics. All I'm saying is that why TREAT something as canon if it's not? No big deal, we mean the same thing.

His Divine Shadow wrote:I don't really see any contradictions between the movies and EU...

Now, I'm getting a little pissed off. Did you even read my (double) post earlier? I offered a whole lot of examples of canon material that are contradicting the EU. You can't just dismiss it by saying 'I don't see a contradiction'. You should try to stop being so 'objective' and 'scientific' and actually provide some reasoning behind what you say - not just blatently dismiss my arguments with a sentence. If you want this to be a reasonable discussion then be reasonable. You may not agree with me, fine. But at least provide some arguments and logic behind your disagreement. TELL ME HOW YOU DON'T SEE A CONTRADICTION. For all your talk of objectivity and science you aren't being very scientific.

His Divine Shadow wrote:to decide personally that some evidence should be thrown out is highly subjective

I'm not simply "throwing out" evidence. I am highlighting contradictions with canon material. If you don't think they're contradictions then provide reasons for it. And elaborate, not one sentence, please.

His Divine Shadow wrote:And also remember the force interference point in AOTC

I have. I have also illustrated that the Sith aren't much more powerful than the Jedi, having been defeated by Jedi numerous times. Therefore, the "force interference" can't be that much of an issue. Especially for physical abilities. The "Force interference" isn't a force intereference at all. Its an interference with the ability of a Jedi to view the future and such - not a physical limitation, as can be seen that Yoda defeats Dooku and Luke defeats Vader.

His Divine Shadow wrote:Also, why are Dark Jedi / Sith not as powerfull in that era? It's easy, official material alredy explained that most of this dark knowledge was lost eons ago, Emperor Palpatine in Dark Empire found new ways to harness the force, and in doing so, recovered much lost knowledge.

This is the most reasonable point you've made the entire time. To me it stinks of a "shit, how are we going to explain all the contradictions with the movies?". But it's there so I guess we'll have to deal with it.

However, it still fails to address some contradictions, specifically the ones to do with the non-dark side users. We pretty much see the extent of Yoda's power in AOTC. If a dozen or two Jedi can move 45 (!) Star Destroyers out of a planetary system then why couldn't Yoda, Mace and all the Jedi park themselves in orbit around Geonosis and use some similar power to destroy all the battle droids?

Ender wrote:It was 45 IDSs thrown in Darksaber.

Were those ISDs shielded? Did their crews know what was happening? How far / fast were they thrown?

Morte wrote:This I see as a matter of preference. To me, if the movies implicitly contradict EU material then the EU material is discarded. I guess others have different views. Still, for this paticular matter I still think there are far too many contradictions with movies to accept all the uber-Force powers there are in the EU.

From above, it sounds more like you are dumping the entire source behind the contradiction, rather than just dumping the contradiction alone (or try to rationalise it to other sources of information).

As for things like the differences between the Original VD and AOTC VD, both were by the same author, so any differences might well be intentional. A lot can happen in twenty/thirty or so years, including R2 units undergoing various refits.

On the topic of the Force and Jedi/Dark Jedi powers Yoda and Mace did say that the Jedi's ability to use the Force has been diminished (by the Sith), and it was implied by those two that it was great enough that it was so severe that non-Jedi can seriously hurt the Jedi. Just note the fact that the closest that a non-Jedi has ever done harm to a Jedi in film canon (previous to AOTC) was one of Jabba's men hitting the back of Luke's prothetic hand.

OT VD:
- the small circle under the big black 'eye' or R2 is labelled as a processor state indicator and the pair of rectangular 'displays' to the left of it are labelled logic function display.
- the legs on R2 are a little away from the body.
- under R2, where his third leg retracts there is a rectangular space for the leg to retract into.
- the brown cable on the bottom of R2's legs are labelled powerbus cables.
- (this one is particularly difficult to describe) on the inside of R2's legs, down the bottom, there is one little 'beam' (best description I can think of).

AOTC VD:
- the rectangular displays are now 'processor state indicators', not 'logic function displays', a function previously attributed to a different part of R2!
- R2's legs are pretty much directly next to his body.
- under R2, where the third leg retracts there is now a circular area to retract into!
- the brown cables are now 'sensory impulse cables'!
- on the bottom of R2's legs there are two little beams, and those beams don't line up with the 'holes' on the OT R2.

Take a look for yourself - the R2s are obviously two different models. So if both VDs are treated equally as canon, which one is right?

Both possibly, there can be many variations of R2 units, possibly because the AOTC-VD describes an earlier R2 unit specification while the OT-VD describes R2 units as they are manufactured 20 years later.

Now, I'm getting a little pissed off. Did you even read my (double) post earlier? I offered a whole lot of examples of canon material that are contradicting the EU. You can't just dismiss it by saying 'I don't see a contradiction'. You should try to stop being so 'objective' and 'scientific' and actually provide some reasoning behind what you say - not just blatently dismiss my arguments with a sentence. If you want this to be a reasonable discussion then be reasonable. You may not agree with me, fine. But at least provide some arguments and logic behind your disagreement. TELL ME HOW YOU DON'T SEE A CONTRADICTION. For all your talk of objectivity and science you aren't being very scientific.

Sure I am, cause contradictions I've seen are created as contradictions, nothing that a bit of logic and rationalization won't fix, wich should be what you, the guy who finds these possible contradictions should also try and rationalize, or ask for help, if you're objective, not just pass them off as contradictions and say "Hah, take that filthy EU".

And you see, I am being very objective and scientific here, because I don't go around looking for socalled contradictions, I make all the observed evidence work, like a scientist.

You have some contradictions, list them then, I won't sift through the thread for that.

I'm not simply "throwing out" evidence. I am highlighting contradictions with canon material. If you don't think they're contradictions then provide reasons for it. And elaborate, not one sentence, please.

Your highlighting it seems to me because you personally think it's a contradiction, I see this and offer an explanation that would make both fit.
If you where truly objective you would try and see how a new theory could be made to fit all the observed evidence, or ask for help in doing so.

I have. I have also illustrated that the Sith aren't much more powerful than the Jedi, having been defeated by Jedi numerous times.

This is shown how and where? in TPM we have a young apprentice kicking Jedi ass, until Obi-Wan get's pissed off and finishes him.
See what this indicates? Obi-Wan didn't win until he used the dark side, however temporarily.

Therefore, the "force interference" can't be that much of an issue.

I don't see how you could rationlize that.
It took Yoda someone who has trained the Jedi arts for 800 years to make it a stand off fight with Count Dooku, who easily took out Obi-Wan and Anakin prior.

Especially for physical abilities. The "Force interference" isn't a force intereference at all. Its an interference with the ability of a Jedi to view the future and such - not a physical limitation, as can be seen that Yoda defeats Dooku and Luke defeats Vader.

Already addressed.

This is the most reasonable point you've made the entire time.

I think I make nothing but reasonable points.
That I want to make as much of the evidence fit as is possibly doable only proves this, I have no reason nor want to find evidence that could be passed of as a contradiction when it would only hurt the continuity of the SW universe for my own personal taste and interpreptation of the movies.

However, it still fails to address some contradictions, specifically the ones to do with the non-dark side users. We pretty much see the extent of Yoda's power in AOTC.

I don't, I see that Count Dooku easily took on two Obi-Wan and Anakin without trouble and it took an 800 year old Jedi master with infinitly more training and knowledge than Dooku just to make the battle a draw.

If a dozen or two Jedi can move 45 (!) Star Destroyers out of a planetary system then why couldn't Yoda, Mace and all the Jedi park themselves in orbit around Geonosis and use some similar power to destroy all the battle droids?

The Jedi in question who all this power was churned through burned up from inside and died BTW and the time it took made it wholly unusable in such a situation.