Giving in to the Darkside

Lord_Xerxes · Post by **Lord_Xerxes** » 2003-04-03 03:46pm

Kazeite wrote:
Lord_Xerxes wrote:Kazeite, I didn't say Dooku was more powerful than Yoda. I sad Yoda was winded and Dooku didn't have any trouble deflecting his flurry of blows. There's a fine line of difference.
Maybe I simply misunderstood, but it appeared to me that if Dooku can easily parry Yoda's attack, then he must be more powerful than Yoda. Or more skilled with lightsabre.

BTW, wasn't someone complaining about Dooku fight style in here?

Oh well, no matter. The fact is that Yoda was unable to quickly defeat Dooku, and that GL said that DS is powerful.

I was saying that for all the kewlness, Yoda's flipping and twirling is wasteful energy, and Dooku easily parries every blow. At least when Obi is fighting Dooku, it looks like he mades one small hit or something. This doesn't necessarily mean that Dooku is stronger than Yoda, it just means that Dooku's particular style is far more conservative and pratical. We saw a shortened battle. We don't know who would win in the end. Perhaps Yoda, perhaps Dooku.

Kazeite · Post by **Kazeite** » 2003-04-03 04:01pm

Lord_Xerxes wrote:I was saying that for all the kewlness, Yoda's flipping and twirling is wasteful energy, and Dooku easily parries every blow. At least when Obi is fighting Dooku, it looks like he mades one small hit or something.

If I'm not mistaken, Anakin fight with Dooku was originally longer, too. That's why there's sudden change in Dooku and Anakin's position when Obi throws him his lightsabre.

And... I think that Dooku was supposed to fight Yoda with two lightsabres at one point.

This doesn't necessarily mean that Dooku is stronger than Yoda, it just means that Dooku's particular style is far more conservative and pratical. We saw a shortened battle. We don't know who would win in the end. Perhaps Yoda, perhaps Dooku.

Exactly!
We saw a shortened battle, and their fight remained unresolved. Thank you for clearing that up.

BTW, have you seen fancomic "Yoda: Jedi Padawan" at theforce.net? It describes Yoda's early years and it comments partially Yodas style.

Lord_Xerxes · Post by **Lord_Xerxes** » 2003-04-03 04:59pm

Kazeite wrote:
Lord_Xerxes wrote:I was saying that for all the kewlness, Yoda's flipping and twirling is wasteful energy, and Dooku easily parries every blow. At least when Obi is fighting Dooku, it looks like he mades one small hit or something.
If I'm not mistaken, Anakin fight with Dooku was originally longer, too. That's why there's sudden change in Dooku and Anakin's position when Obi throws him his lightsabre.

Yeah, the original fight was supposed to be far longer. They editted down. And I was hoping it would make it to the deleted scenes for the DVD, but for some stupid reason it didn't. I guess they'll eventually release a Special Edition for AOTC?

And... I think that Dooku was supposed to fight Yoda with two lightsabres at one point.

Yeah, there's pictures of Dooku with two lightsabers in the AOTC VD. I'm not sure if it was Yoda or Anakin.

Exactly!
We saw a shortened battle, and their fight remained unresolved. Thank you for clearing that up.

BTW, have you seen fancomic "Yoda: Jedi Padawan" at theforce.net? It describes Yoda's early years and it comments partially Yodas style.

That was the point of me suggesting that the reason Dooku flees is not necessarily because Yoda has defeated him. That clearly hasn't taken place at all. I believe it's because of the threat of the approaching Clone Troopers which arrive shortly thereafter, and that's why I suggested maybe he was sensing them.

No, I haven't seen that.

Lord_Xerxes · Post by **Lord_Xerxes** » 2003-04-03 05:17pm

And some more about Dooku's fighting style that emphasizes my point about all the leaping and whatnot being wasteful movements. This comes from teh novelization of AOTC.

During the Obi-Wan/Dooku fight:

Against that posture, Obi-Wan's sudden flurry of attacsk seemed exaggerated and inefficient, for Dooku defeated each, one after another, with a slight parry or dodge, seeming barely to move. For while Obi-Wan and most of the Jedi were sword fighters, Count Dooku was a fencer, following an older fighting style, one more effective agasinst weapons like lightsabers than against projectile weapons like blasters. The Jedi on the whole has abandoned that old fighting style, considering it almost irrelevant against the enemies of the present galaxy, but Dooku had always held stubbornly to it, considering it among the highest of fighting disciplines.

Now, as the battle played out between the Count and Obi-Wan, the older way showed its brilliance. Obi-Wan leapt and spun, slashing side to side, chopping and thrusting, but all of Dooku's movements seemed far more efficient. He followed a single line, front and back, his feet shifting to keep him constantly in perfect balance as he retreated and came on suddnely with devastating thrusts that had Obi-Wan stumbling backward.

"Master Kenobi, you disappoint me," the Count taunted. "Yoda holds you in such high esteem."

I love that line. Yoda holsd Obi-Wan in high esteem for his ability as a Saber fighter, and the novel shows that Obi is doing so much of the same sort of wasteful movements...jumping, leaping, spinning...And it's worthless against Dooku's easy parries and blocks. And, as it goes on, Obi-Wan is quickly wearing himself out, and being worn out by Dooku's counters. This is exaclty my point with the Yoda/Dooku battle.

The novel goes on through the Dooku/Yoda battle, making it appear that the minor mistakes Dooku makes are based around him letting his anger get the best of him:

The furious Dooku pursed, thrusting hard for Yoda's head. And in his rage when his stab missed yet again, he reverted to a slashing attack.

The novel puts out the notion that Yoda's constant movements are to keep Dooku on guard and to stop him from being able to attack Yoda low, because he's never there. To take away Dooku's height advantage. This is a understandable tactic. But if the battle were to continue on, who would tire first? Would the expense of using the Force to do such maneuvers wear Yoda down, and would Dooku's efficiency win out, or would Dooku's rage cause Dooku to fuck up, and Yoda to capitalize? It's a toss up, I think.

I do think, however, that I backed up my point quite well with the above quoting from Obi-Wan's fight.

Stuart Mackey · Post by **Stuart Mackey** » 2003-04-05 05:23am

Lord_Xerxes wrote:
snip
Kazeite, I didn't say Dooku was more powerful than Yoda. I sad Yoda was winded and Dooku didn't have any trouble deflecting his flurry of blows. There's a fine line of difference. snip

Yoda is what? 875 years old at the time? not exactly a spring chicken.

Illuminatus Primus · Post by **Illuminatus Primus** » 2003-04-05 12:20pm

*shrug* I'll just cheerfully throw out that comment with other comments recently about clones not backed up in ANH and "laserswords."

In-movie canon is supreme.

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2003-04-05 12:23pm

Stuart Mackey wrote:
Lord_Xerxes wrote:
snip
Kazeite, I didn't say Dooku was more powerful than Yoda. I sad Yoda was winded and Dooku didn't have any trouble deflecting his flurry of blows. There's a fine line of difference. snip
Yoda is what? 875 years old at the time? not exactly a spring chicken.

Don't forget his size...

Seriously the sucker has an extraordinary life span and has the ability to keep up with ease against a much younger opponent.

Says a lot about Yoda more than anything else.