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I don't mind the Clones having biochips, Clones that were raised within months with artificially accelerated growth and stuff... if they went through adolescence or childhood in the tubes, it's not preposterous to suggest that a lot of the pre-combat education and conditioning was likewise artificially inputted and biochips would be part of that. So it'd make some sense for something as integral to Palpy's plan as Order 66 to be "deep-implanted" via said chips.

Shroom Man 777 wrote:I don't mind the Clones having biochips, Clones that were raised within months with artificially accelerated growth and stuff... if they went through adolescence or childhood in the tubes, it's not preposterous to suggest that a lot of the pre-combat education and conditioning was likewise artificially inputted and biochips would be part of that. So it'd make some sense for something as integral to Palpy's plan as Order 66 to be "deep-implanted" via said chips.

I feel like you're missing the point I was making.

Yes, the clones grew up in their tubes for at least until they're toddlers, most likely. There's only so much you can do with a human mind at that age. Stimulants and other materials might be used to enhance growth, but the clones weren't getting flash-training in their tubes. We saw it throughout the entire montage that Obi-Wan witnessed when he first visited Kamino.

Lama Su, Prime Minister of Kamino, said it best, "We take great pride in our combat education and training programs." He then mentions a training group created "about five years ago" and we are shown a series tiered computer consoles where clones are learning and training. Then there is the scene showing the clones eating, overlaid with Lama Su saying, "They are totally obedient, taking any order without question. We modified their genetic structure to make them less independent than the original host." ( RotS movie scene, source )

They were trained and raised to be soldiers, trained by grizzled bounty hunters who also saw them as little better than droids. It was only once they were in the wider galaxy, fighting, that most encountered people or beings that acted more kindly toward them. There was an early episode in the Clone Wars series in fact where Yoda basically showed a handful of clones that they were not just numbers, not just copies of each other, but had unique selves. That is the psychology behind them: they've deep, ingrained training that was reinforced by a genetic disposition towards following orders.

We see them become more humanized throughout the series, slowly working against the genetic modification that made them less independent. BUT they are still conditioned, within their psychology. You might even say that they are brainwashed. (Seems accurate, considering how mechanical Commander Cody sounds after receiving Palpatine's order to initiate Order 66.)

There were some clones that resisted that programming, but others didn't. They followed orders.


That then is where Filoni and a lot of others in charge of the Star Wars Clone Wars series suddenly realized that they'd stepped straight into a giant SNAFU pile. It's quite well known that one of the most used and vocal excuses made by Nazi soldiers, officers, and even the leadership directly under Hitler was, "But, I was only following orders." This excuse is not enough anymore, as we expect soldiers to have a stronger conscious these days.

The Nuremberg trials went on to establish the precedent that it is an inadequate defence to claim that you were only following orders, and that the individual has a responsibility, if they feel they are given a dangerous, immoral or criminal order, to not carry it out. The crux is, that military discipline and obedience does not trump all – humanity and reason, however, does.

(Sources: LINK 1 LINK 2)

In creating the show and telling a more detailed story of the events of the Clone Wars, Filoni & co. realized that if they continued with this line of programmed adherence to orders, it might be seen as "giving an out" to the "bad guys" (as we see the clones shooting down Jedi and Younglings in the RotS).

So, they came up with an idea to make it seem as if the clones weren't in fact not!SS troopers "just following orders", but were themselves victims in a very blatant way (ie the biochips).



This deconstruction and lack of complexity is what I don't like, even though I realize that the reason why it was done is because it was for a kids show. However, instead of trying to pass it off as pure canon, I'd like them to be upfront and say, "Yeah, we saw how dark this was and realized we needed to change it a bit for the kids show and our own consciences."

Abacus wrote:

Shroom Man 777 wrote:I don't mind the Clones having biochips, Clones that were raised within months with artificially accelerated growth and stuff... if they went through adolescence or childhood in the tubes, it's not preposterous to suggest that a lot of the pre-combat education and conditioning was likewise artificially inputted and biochips would be part of that. So it'd make some sense for something as integral to Palpy's plan as Order 66 to be "deep-implanted" via said chips.

I feel like you're missing the point I was making.

Yes, the clones grew up in their tubes for at least until they're toddlers, most likely. There's only so much you can do with a human mind at that age. Stimulants and other materials might be used to enhance growth, but the clones weren't getting flash-training in their tubes. We saw it throughout the entire montage that Obi-Wan witnessed when he first visited Kamino.

Technical nitpick:

I know they were trained by actual advisors drawn from elite bounty hunters (who may not actually be the best conventional warfare experts but whatever, they know how to shoot shit up good...) and presumably the local/regional defense forces and militaries (since the Republic lacked a "federal" standing military, so defense was probably decentralized with each system having their local forces ala Naboo...). I said pre-combat training, which meant like toilet training, ABCDs, etc. since one doesn't need the galaxy's greatest toilet users, the most longest ranged crack pissers, or the fastest ABCD spellers or Galactic Basic calligraphers, to instruct the Clones in that stuff... I mean, if Clones take a handful of years or months to grow, especially since the war itself was just within 3 years (and presumably new batches of clones were gestated and trained and sent to die within that time... so they might've developed even faster methods), then there's only so much time for training the Kaminoans and the instructors can cram in. Even with "learning accelerant/stimulant" substances and conditioning/input methods.

In creating the show and telling a more detailed story of the events of the Clone Wars, Filoni & co. realized that if they continued with this line of programmed adherence to orders, it might be seen as "giving an out" to the "bad guys" (as we see the clones shooting down Jedi and Younglings in the RotS).

So, they came up with an idea to make it seem as if the clones weren't in fact not!SS troopers "just following orders", but were themselves victims in a very blatant way (ie the biochips).

This deconstruction and lack of complexity is what I don't like, even though I realize that the reason why it was done is because it was for a kids show. However, instead of trying to pass it off as pure canon, I'd like them to be upfront and say, "Yeah, we saw how dark this was and realized we needed to change it a bit for the kids show and our own consciences."

I understand. I agree. IMO, the technical plausibility of biochip-assisted clone conditioning, like it's very feasible with the in-universe tech-leve, but nonetheless it is not mutually exclusive with how thematically it's a cop out since an examination of WW2 style "just following orders" type of folks who end up committing atrocities, the banality of evil concept, is a very interesting thing.

So yes, while I think biochips are feasible in-universe, from a "technical" standpoint, yeah it's still out of character (or out of kayfabe in pro-wrestling terms) a cheap way for Filoni to avoid turning their clones into fascist monsters reenacting WW2-style atrocities and falling for the banality of evil.

It touches on the uncomfortable implications on the whole hero-ification of Clones and then, later, pseudo-"Imperial apologist" fan and even company's creative people's attempts at making even Stormtroopers sympathetic. Their GI Joe-ification. Both generally, due to the whole ethical problems of military-industrial-complexes, and the warrior culture (and fetish) cultivated by the MIC-centric media in real life and in fiction... and specifically in Star Wars, both thematically and in-universe, since it IS a freaking fascist machine for galactic oppression.

MAYBE there's something in it if the approach emphasizes the tragedy of the Clones. With or without biochips, they weren't civilians who were recruited, they were practically slaves who were conditioned to consent. I actually think even without biochips, it'd be no different, chip or no chip they were cultivated in a way that choice and whatnot were eroded. Though perhaps without blatant biochips it wouldn't be as obvious to slower audiences... but still, unlike Nazis the Clones didn't choose the paths they were on. They were grown in tubes.

I think it's possible to reconcile both. They were pretty much vat-grown slaves, but what they did was still utterly monstrous and inexcusable. But yeah, you're right, it's a kid's show and even if it wasn't a CGI cartoon, even adults and made-for-adult materials struggle to deal with such issues.

Abacus wrote:RogueIce, you're really sending me mixed signals. First you say you're tired of hearing people blaming Lucas/Disney for kid-ifying things; and then, when I change to bash Filoni after you tell me that he is the likely culprit, you complain that I'm absolving Lucas. Dafuq?

My bad, I thought you were focusing just on Disney. If you're annoyed at Lucas for kid-ifying things, then my response is a firm ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Still, I'd disagree that the bio-chip things is "making it for kids" and more the inevitable consequence of them making The Clone Wars as they did.

Shroom Man 777 wrote:I understand. I agree. IMO, the technical plausibility of biochip-assisted clone conditioning, like it's very feasible with the in-universe tech-leve, but nonetheless it is not mutually exclusive with how thematically it's a cop out since an examination of WW2 style "just following orders" type of folks who end up committing atrocities, the banality of evil concept, is a very interesting thing.

So yes, while I think biochips are feasible in-universe, from a "technical" standpoint, yeah it's still out of character (or out of kayfabe in pro-wrestling terms) a cheap way for Filoni to avoid turning their clones into fascist monsters reenacting WW2-style atrocities and falling for the banality of evil.

I'm going to just quote Shroom here because Abacus already has his notification from getting quoted.

Anyway, I think they kind of had to do it this way. As Abacus noted, the show proper starts off with an episode about Yoda showing the clones they have humanity. And throughout the show we get to see this, with the way the Jedi, almost without exception, treat them as people and full equals - to the extent their respective military ranks allow. And then we have Cut Lawquane who decided he was just going to stop fighting because of his experiences, demonstrating that at some level they clearly had free will and could 'choose' to leave, even if they'd (probably) get arrested for it if the GAR ever found out. But Rex didn't turn him in, even though he technically should have, again demonstrating their free will and independence. Additionally, the clone trooper who went traitor.

Ironically, the one Jedi to treat them like shit also showed that they clearly weren't conditioned to follow all orders without question. Otherwise, how would they have ever mutinied against Pong Krell? Ironically, the darkest arc of the show kind of eliminated the possibility of "just following orders" because it rather clearly shows the clones had the ability to say, "WTF this makes no sense we're not going along with your clearly illegal actions here."

Watch the scene - at no point does Palpatine even mention the Jedi betraying the Republic to the clones. At least, not in the three instances we hear the order given. So why would they have all blindly followed it? We've seen they have the ability to question their commanders, so why in the name of the Force didn't we get more of them questioning it?

I mean even going back to the Nazis, if Hitler could have sent a message to every soldier to just up and kill their Generals, no reason given, just do it, how many would have followed that? It would have made no sense.

So really we have only two options here: heavy-duty Manchurian Candidate style brainwashing, with "Execute Order 66" being the trigger phrase, or the bio-chips with..."Execute Order 66" activating them. At that point, what's the difference? If anything, it makes more narrative sense for Palpatine to have a technological fail-safe overriding the clones' ability to resist/question their programming, as we saw with the one that went haywire and cut down a Jedi Master, while having no conscious memory of it after.

Abacus even alludes to this, by mentioning how Cody sounds more robotic after the order is given. Really, there's no much of a difference between Super Brainwashing and bio-chips when you get right down to it.

==========================

On another note, while TCW made something like this a necessity, it's interesting to note the very different impression you'd have of that scene without TCW. Again, Palpatine doesn't say anything to the troopers about the Jedi betraying the Republic. Just the Order 66 bit. But...look at how he says it to Cody: "The time has come. Execute Order 66." And Cody replies, "Yes my lord." And the others we see given the order? "It will be done, my lord." Even amongst those who don't verbalize it, they do nod at each other before turning their guns on the Jedi leading them.

These actions really make it look like the Clones were in on it from the start doesn't it? And hey, it mostly works because we don't see much of them in the two movies, so of course we can believe it. Heck the closest we get to a clone acknowledging "the Jedi betrayed the Republic" is the one who tells Bail Organa that there's been a rebellion...but then immediately pulls his blaster on a Republic Senator, telling him to leave! That really comes across as "they were in on it" because he's giving the cover story Palpatine gave to the Senate, but then being immediately threatening so this nosy Senator doesn't get the chance to poke around and maybe ruin things, like finding a survivor and spiriting them away.

Again, this kind of falls apart if you watch TCW; unless you buy in that the clone troopers were really good actors in on the long con.

RogueIce wrote:I mean even going back to the Nazis, if Hitler could have sent a message to every soldier to just up and kill their Generals, no reason given, just do it, how many would have followed that? It would have made no sense.

A disturbing number of people would have followed it, I think. Don't underestimate the cult of personality (though I will admit that does not seem to be present in clone wars).

What would have actually made more sense is for Order 66 to have been used against Krell. It could have even been authorized by the Jedi Council, with a scene showing them extremely disturbed by the decision. It would also have been nice to have shown that cases like Cut Lawquane were extreme outliers, in which the clones did have a degree of free will but to a lesser extent than normal humans. As human as they otherwise are, it should have been shown that they never disobey or even really reinterpret orders.

I also think it would have been rather nicely ironic for Rex, the clone who served directly under Anakin, to be one of the only ones who developed enough personal initiative to ignore the order. It would have also been superior if Yularen had been Dodona for the same reason, so that all of Anakin's friends during the Clone Wars end up fighting for the Rebellion.

While this was at least partially an idea developed by Karen Traviss, I actually like the idea that it was one of a series of potential contingency orders, with others for dealing with things like rogue senators or even the Chancellor. It caused Palpatine's moves in ROTS to be all the more significant, in which his direct control of the Clone Army was important to his plan, justifying the invasion of Coruscant as part of said plans.

Though in any case the tragedy of the Clone Wars was always going to be different than a case like the Nazis, as AOTC indicates that they are conditioned for obedience at least to some degree. Clone Wars simply indicated that it was a control chip.

RogueIce wrote:
So really we have only two options here: heavy-duty Manchurian Candidate style brainwashing, with "Execute Order 66" being the trigger phrase, or the bio-chips with..."Execute Order 66" activating them. At that point, what's the difference? If anything, it makes more narrative sense for Palpatine to have a technological fail-safe overriding the clones' ability to resist/question their programming, as we saw with the one that went haywire and cut down a Jedi Master, while having no conscious memory of it after.

Abacus even alludes to this, by mentioning how Cody sounds more robotic after the order is given. Really, there's no much of a difference between Super Brainwashing and bio-chips when you get right down to it.

Uh huh. In the rest of my post I do say:

Shroom Man 777 wrote:I actually think even without biochips, it'd be no different, chip or no chip they were cultivated in a way that choice and whatnot were eroded. Though perhaps without blatant biochips it wouldn't be as obvious to slower audiences... but still, unlike Nazis the Clones didn't choose the paths they were on. They were grown in tubes.

I think it's possible to reconcile both. They were pretty much vat-grown slaves, but what they did was still utterly monstrous and inexcusable. But yeah, you're right, it's a kid's show and even if it wasn't a CGI cartoon, even adults and made-for-adult materials struggle to deal with such issues.

It's been awhile since I watched Clone Wars, and I haven't watched Rebels yet or read any of the new EU, so this could be way off, but is it possible that the "hero" clones in the provided media were able to resist the Order 66 biochip through sheer willpower/dedication to "the cause"? Whereas other clone units, not particularly battle tested or otherwise enamored with their Jedi generals had no chance against the biochip overriding their actions? Is that kind of the direction the EU is going with it? Or maybe certain battlefield conditions unforeseen by the Kaminoans rendered the secret biochips inert/ineffective for some units?

Shroom Man 777 wrote:Uh huh. In the rest of my post I do say:

Shroom Man 777 wrote:I actually think even without biochips, it'd be no different, chip or no chip they were cultivated in a way that choice and whatnot were eroded. Though perhaps without blatant biochips it wouldn't be as obvious to slower audiences... but still, unlike Nazis the Clones didn't choose the paths they were on. They were grown in tubes.

I think it's possible to reconcile both. They were pretty much vat-grown slaves, but what they did was still utterly monstrous and inexcusable. But yeah, you're right, it's a kid's show and even if it wasn't a CGI cartoon, even adults and made-for-adult materials struggle to deal with such issues.

I know. I quoted you just because I wanted to ping you. I like pinging you.

NeoGoomba wrote:It's been awhile since I watched Clone Wars, and I haven't watched Rebels yet or read any of the new EU, so this could be way off, but is it possible that the "hero" clones in the provided media were able to resist the Order 66 biochip through sheer willpower/dedication to "the cause"? Whereas other clone units, not particularly battle tested or otherwise enamored with their Jedi generals had no chance against the biochip overriding their actions? Is that kind of the direction the EU is going with it? Or maybe certain battlefield conditions unforeseen by the Kaminoans rendered the secret biochips inert/ineffective for some units?

Rex removed his chip before Order 66 was given. The only Jedi he would've had to shoot at was Ahsoka, anyway.

Haven't heard of anyone else resisting.

Also, if the Disney EU has an issue with making things a bit too straightforward ala the biochips, the old EU has problem with going dark and gritty, to the point it gets really wearying. The raw length of the Vong War, the general 'politicans are bad,' arc after arc, the next gen just repeating a fall right out of the last generation only more ham-fisted, the heavy military-SF influence, etc.. The Bantam era of novels isn't bad, but IMO the Del Rey era is simply a grind that misses out on SW more than anything in Rebels or The Clone Wars.

Honestly biochips for brainwash robo-obedience isn't that far fetched as a final failsafe if the clones actually realize they're goddamn slaves and frag an entire galaxy's worth of sumbitches.

Shroom has a point, they had enough individuality to be competent at tactics, intelligent, etc then they can come to the decision they are fodder. If I recall there's a clone wars episode in season one that's about a clone who goes rogue and thinks that they are slaves to the jedi and republic.

Abacus wrote:My biggest riff with the new canon is the fact that they created the bio-chips inside the clones' heads. I feel like they did that because they wanted to kid-dumb-down the execution of Order 66.

Well courtesy of TCW, many kids came to identify the clones as heroes. Given the trope, 'heroes can do no wrong', some form of compulsion has to be invented.

The inhibitor chip absolves the clones of any wrong doing, they are as much victims of the Sith as anyone else

The bio-chips though? Cheap, kiddy cop-out.

I wish they meet half way and have some 'loyalist' clones

How about, Commander Cody being the Commanding General for The Deathtroopers? Certainly be an interesting story arc for Rex, 'brother against brother', etc.

FedRebel wrote:

Abacus wrote:My biggest riff with the new canon is the fact that they created the bio-chips inside the clones' heads. I feel like they did that because they wanted to kid-dumb-down the execution of Order 66.

Well courtesy of TCW, many kids came to identify the clones as heroes. Given the trope, 'heroes can do no wrong', some form of compulsion has to be invented.

Haven't these kids also seen ROTS, and thus know that sooner or later the Clones turn?

Gandalf wrote:

FedRebel wrote:

Abacus wrote:My biggest riff with the new canon is the fact that they created the bio-chips inside the clones' heads. I feel like they did that because they wanted to kid-dumb-down the execution of Order 66.

Well courtesy of TCW, many kids came to identify the clones as heroes. Given the trope, 'heroes can do no wrong', some form of compulsion has to be invented.

Haven't these kids also seen ROTS, and thus know that sooner or later the Clones turn?

They might not of, considering that CW was running on TV channels intended for kid audiences back when streaming services were getting their feet up. ts quite possible that some simply watched it as a cartoon before other star wars stuff.

Q99 wrote:Also, if the Disney EU has an issue with making things a bit too straightforward ala the biochips, the old EU has problem with going dark and gritty, to the point it gets really wearying. The raw length of the Vong War, the general 'politicans are bad,' arc after arc, the next gen just repeating a fall right out of the last generation only more ham-fisted, the heavy military-SF influence, etc.. The Bantam era of novels isn't bad, but IMO the Del Rey era is simply a grind that misses out on SW more than anything in Rebels or The Clone Wars.

The Vong arc was surprisingly hopeful. You had genuinely good people like Cal Omas and even Fyor Rodan (despite being a colossal Fuckhead) is given a few legitimate points that the jedi acknowledge (he's still a dick though when the jedi actually take it into account and address them.) Even Borsk Fey'ela manages to redeem himself in the end. The ending is fairly positive too; the Vong are beaten but given the chance to redeem their culture, the jedi have developed an advanced understanding of the force and the galaxy is finally united under a good government.

Then they pissed all over that

Darth Yan wrote:

Q99 wrote:Also, if the Disney EU has an issue with making things a bit too straightforward ala the biochips, the old EU has problem with going dark and gritty, to the point it gets really wearying. The raw length of the Vong War, the general 'politicans are bad,' arc after arc, the next gen just repeating a fall right out of the last generation only more ham-fisted, the heavy military-SF influence, etc.. The Bantam era of novels isn't bad, but IMO the Del Rey era is simply a grind that misses out on SW more than anything in Rebels or The Clone Wars.

The Vong arc was surprisingly hopeful. You had genuinely good people like Cal Omas and even Fyor Rodan (despite being a colossal Fuckhead) is given a few legitimate points that the jedi acknowledge (he's still a dick though when the jedi actually take it into account and address them.) Even Borsk Fey'ela manages to redeem himself in the end. The ending is fairly positive too; the Vong are beaten but given the chance to redeem their culture, the jedi have developed an advanced understanding of the force and the galaxy is finally united under a good government.

Then they pissed all over that

In my personal headcanon, the Star Wars EU ended after the NJO saga. I absolutely detest the idea of making up more wars for the sake of it. It effectively turned SW into a WH40k dystopia.

My personal headcanon ends after Hand of Thrawn and ignores a lot of what happened before

ray245 wrote: In my personal headcanon, the Star Wars EU ended after the NJO saga. I absolutely detest the idea of making up more wars for the sake of it. It effectively turned SW into a WH40k dystopia.

Quite.

Like, I like the Legacy comic... but that's literally a century after the vong war and such, with a lot period of implied peace in between. It's not just war after war after war, and it works better if one skips the conflicts in between.

The "WH40K saga" label is actually quite fitting in a way, considering that any technological progress is usually repurposing older stuff or the current scale/iteration. Not sure if it thematically fits though, I enjoyed reading the legacy comics but the characters - even Cade - and the overall setting just didn't scream star wars, other then the occasional nostalgia from seeing a familiar old ship design.

This is sort of a necro, but it was something that just occured to me and seemed quite relevant to this thread and not quite worthy of its own. One of the major criticisms about Legends is how much it grew to contradict itself, which was inevitable after so many different authors were involved. Within two years, the new canon has already done this as well. While a minor nitpick, it is not a great sign that it occurred in such a short timeframe.

The novel Lost Stars came out in 2015 and featured a pair of characters from an outer rim world that both joined the Empire. While Cienna stayed loyal to the Empire, eventually becoming captain of the star destroyer embedded in Jakku, Thane defected and joined the Rebel Alliance. While one of the most minimalist books I have ever read, it was an interesting look at whether it was possible for a decent person to serve the Empire.

Anyway, there is a contradiction between this and Rogue One. Cienna's first assignment is to the ISD Devastator, and her first action is as they chase down Tantive IV over Tatooine. Which is fine, but she also mentions that she had been on the vessel for three weeks, even though Devastator was also present at Scarif.

As one of the books launched as part of the "Journey to The Force Awakens" you would think they might actually care about it. Evidently this matters as much as the old EU used as the leadup to ROTS.

...maybe she was stuck in Engineering and didn't know anything other than action had happened? Also note that:

--Disney (god it feels weird to say that rather than 'Lucasfilm') obviously wouldn't have wanted a spoiler like "Vader's flagship is at the big battle in Rogue One" to be easily found like that.

--Before TFA came out, they probably hadn't really planned -that- much of the Star Wars anthology films, counting on the success or failure of TFA to demonstrate whether they were worth continuing with.

--It's also not necessarily a discontinuity in canon. Devastator hypers into Scarif orbit at the very end of the battle IIRC, just in time to disable the Mon Calamari ship and send boarding craft with Vader over. Tantive IV breaks away from the Mon Cal ship and hypers away. Presumably Devastator followed relatively quickly. Arguably, if Devastator was her first assignment, she was stuck in some minor position where nobody told her anything and she did what she was told. Unless she was in astrogation or some such, she might have only learned where they went well after the fact. Not having read Lost Stars, I can't comment as to whether that works out or not.