Casualties of Liberation

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Nathan F
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Post by Nathan F »

Funny, those are all the same thing, an isolated incident.

Quotes from it:
In a written statement, U.S. Central Command said it was looking into the report, but had not confirmed it. "Coalition forces target only legitimate military targets and go to great lengths to minimize civilian casualties and damage to civilian facilities," the statement said.
No one was hurt when coalition bombing damaged this Baghdad maternity hospital, the Red Cross says.
Hmm, no one was hurt, either. What a horrible trajedy. A hospital was damaged with, get this, !0! casualties (either injury or death).
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Post by Beowulf »

Spyder wrote:
Nathan F wrote:
Spyder wrote: Put yourself in their position. Leaflets fall to the ground saying 'don't be alarmed, we're liberating you.' Right before several members of your immediate family are killed by a cluster bomb.

The whole situation wouldn't strike you as a little odd?
Also strikes me as odd that they would be using cluster munitions when they are making precision strikes.

Oh, wait, that's right, they AREN'T using cluster munitions in populated areas!
Really?

http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/04/ ... al.attack/
http://www.stuff.co.nz/stuff/0,2106,2377605a10,00.html
http://www.delphi.co.uk/cgi-bin/news/ne ... pital.html
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Post by Nathan F »

Spyder wrote:
Nathan F wrote:Should I bring into the meat grinders, acid pools, acid drop chambers, and electrocution chambers he uses for torture?

And the fact that he shoots POWs and forces children as young as 10 years old to fight for him?
Red Herring. Saddam's mistreatment of civilians does not impact this issue. This thread is about questioning the coalition's methods. "but he's a bad bad man too!" is no excuse.
No, that is not a red herring. You were saying how the coalition was killing hundreds of people, and we said that it was an acceptable risk because of the lives that would be saved.

This is merely pointing that out.

Don't give me your fallacious fallacies.
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Post by Spyder »

RedImperator wrote:You still haven't answered my question: is it moral to leave the Iraqi people under the rule of a brutal dictator who's continued grasp on power is OUR FAULT? Or are you going be one of Saddam's apologists and claim he's really not all that bad?
Black and white fallacy. I never claimed that he wasn't that bad. You're assuming that because I'm not too keen on the idea of slaughtering civilians with cluster munitions (don't say it hasn't happened, even CNN admitted to it) that I want Saddam to stay in power.

It is not moral to leave Saddam in power, nor is it moral to charge into Iraq shooting anything that looks at you cock-eyed wether they be soldiers, civlians, children, or even your own allies.
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Post by Knife »

Spyder wrote:
RedImperator wrote:You still haven't answered my question: is it moral to leave the Iraqi people under the rule of a brutal dictator who's continued grasp on power is OUR FAULT? Or are you going be one of Saddam's apologists and claim he's really not all that bad?
Black and white fallacy. I never claimed that he wasn't that bad. You're assuming that because I'm not too keen on the idea of slaughtering civilians with cluster munitions (don't say it hasn't happened, even CNN admitted to it) that I want Saddam to stay in power.

It is not moral to leave Saddam in power, nor is it moral to charge into Iraq shooting anything that looks at you cock-eyed wether they be soldiers, civlians, children, or even your own allies.
And now your guilty of a black and white fallacy. Either we don't go in and civies die or we go in like 'cowboys' and shoot everything up. :roll:

The fact is that we have bent over backwards, more so than any other country probably would, to prevent or limit civilian causualties. The idea that we can go in and not kill any one accidently is stupid as is the idea that we are over there killing everything that moves.
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Post by Nathan F »

Spyder wrote: Black and white fallacy. I never claimed that he wasn't that bad. You're assuming that because I'm not too keen on the idea of slaughtering civilians with cluster munitions (don't say it hasn't happened, even CNN admitted to it) that I want Saddam to stay in power.

It is not moral to leave Saddam in power, nor is it moral to charge into Iraq shooting anything that looks at you cock-eyed wether they be soldiers, civlians, children, or even your own allies.
It sure did sound like you were saying that. We told you that the reasons for it were liberation, and you were still adamantly against it, only now that we have shown you some numbers that you can't contradict, you start backpedalling.

No, it isn't moral to leave Saddam in power, and we aren't running into Iraq shooting anything that moves.

Just shut up, as it is apparent you really do not know what you are talking about.
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Post by jegs2 »

It appears as though the horrible pictures of civilian casualties have been dragged out again IOT prove how horrible the Coalition forces have been treating the Iraqi people. Go join Peter Arnett in Baghdad.
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Post by MKSheppard »

http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/04/ ... index.html

Image
The old tires protected the torturer while the victim stood on a wet floor and was electrocuted, a BBC reporter was told.

ABU AL KHASIB, Iraq (CNN) -- A torture chamber equipped with hooks hanging from ceilings and an on-site electrocution room has been found in the basement of an Iraqi police station, an embedded reporter with the BBC reports.

The reporter said the British Royal Marines from Alpha Company 40 Commando entered the facility -- home to Saddam Hussein's dreaded internal security police -- looking for clues about local militia groups.

Weapons, maps and other documents were found in the raid in the town of Abu Al Khasib, the BBC reporter said Wednesday. But it was downstairs where they found the torture chamber.

One room was completely bare, except for two tires and an electric cable, the BBC reporter said.

He said he was told that an interrogator would use the tires to stand on, while water was poured into the room and the prisoner electrocuted.

Other rooms had hooks hanging from the ceiling, while another 1.2 meter by 2.4 meter (4 foot by 8 foot) cell was equipped with just a pillow and mattress.

The reporter said he interviewed one man, who did not want to be identified, who said prisoners were blindfolded, tied up, hung on the hooks and then beaten.

The man also said a citizen who committed a crime could avoid being tortured by putting up cash -- about $1,600 for stealing, and almost twice that for murder, according to the BBC reporter.
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Post by Vympel »

Nathan F wrote: Don't give me your fallacious fallacies.
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Post by Queeb Salaron »

Spyder wrote:At least stop pretending that it's a liberation. These people don't exactly look very liberated.
Maybe not. But theoretically, their children will.
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Post by Queeb Salaron »

Shep:
Ooh! That's a damned good idea! Those Iraqis are creative!
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Post by Nathan F »

Vympel wrote:
Nathan F wrote: Don't give me your fallacious fallacies.
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Seconded! hehehe
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Post by Axis Kast »

Spyder, keep in mind that we are working to limit the number of civilian casualties. No other nation has gone to such great lengths to attempt a general elimination of collatoral damage.

Yes, we do make mistakes. But no, it's not indicative of a wider trend. We most certainly do not "shoot anything that moves."

This is a war and people die. Your main argument seems to be: "What are we doing if the people aren't dancing in the streets?" Try to understand that they still fear we might pull out or that Saddam's irregulars infest their neighborhoods. Iraqi troops are fighting under the cover of human shields. Iraqis face death by execution if they don't come to fight. Many of them have chosen to temporarily raise a gun against the invader rather than immediately surrender; they do plan to put down the weapons once our elimination of Saddam and imposition of a temporary military government is complete. I garantee you that there will be celebration - but not before the storm.
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Post by Sea Skimmer »

Assuming one civilian died per day from Saddam, an extremely low number I'd expect, totally civilian deaths in this invasion are equal to less then a year and half of his rule, and we could be cutting a decade or two off it.

Seems like a pretty good trade to me.
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