Returning classic character announced for Episode 9

[Gandalf]

Kinda like how Bail Organa's death was always considered implicit when Alderaan was blown up in ANH.

Live like an Organa, die like an Organa. P

[Gandalf]

The idea of Leia being a Force user isn't hard to swallow, given her lineage, it's just that she went from no hints of aptitude to surviving hard vacuum long enough to pull herself to safety. Show me pulling a coffee mug or something first to prepare me! I guess I have to resign myself to the fact that the Force is just less subtle these days, it doesn't have time to fuck around like it did with Luke.

The Force once manifested a guy out of nowhere. Someone from a family of naturally powerful space wizards doing space unexpected magic isn't that much of a stretch,

This ties back to my view that, at least for people with a strong connection to the Force and the right mindset, learning specific Force techniques doesn't take a huge amount of time. The hard part of training is developing the right state of mind, and learning why and when you should use the Force, not how to use it.

But as noted above, Leia had plenty of opportunity to learn some Force skills. I wish we'd seen more of it earlier, but since she spent most of the ST in a behind-the-lines capacity, its not surprising that we don't see more of it in action.

I consider this a bit like stories of how people in dire moments can do great things, like the stories of mothers lifting cars off their children, or whatever it is. Evidently, God The Force wasn't done with her, so Leia lived via some unconsciously tapped space magic.

[The Romulan Republic]

The Force once manifested a guy out of nowhere. Someone from a family of naturally powerful space wizards doing space unexpected magic isn't that much of a stretch,

This ties back to my view that, at least for people with a strong connection to the Force and the right mindset, learning specific Force techniques doesn't take a huge amount of time. The hard part of training is developing the right state of mind, and learning why and when you should use the Force, not how to use it.

But as noted above, Leia had plenty of opportunity to learn some Force skills. I wish we'd seen more of it earlier, but since she spent most of the ST in a behind-the-lines capacity, its not surprising that we don't see more of it in action.

I consider this a bit like stories of how people in dire moments can do great things, like the stories of mothers lifting cars off their children, or whatever it is. Evidently, God The Force wasn't done with her, so Leia lived via some unconsciously tapped space magic.

That works too (for that matter, its canon since the very first film that the Force partially controls your actions as well as vice-versa).

But I prefer it if Leia actually learned some Force techniques in the 30-plus years since Luke promised to teach her. Of course, this does raise the question of why Leia needed Luke to fight the First Order, but there are other explanations that can be offered for that (Luke is a legend while Leia is a discredited politician, Leia doesn't want to confront her son personally, as a general Leia is needed to run the Resistance and can't risk herself personally in battle).

[Gandalf]

That works too (for that matter, its canon since the very first film that the Force partially controls your actions as well as vice-versa).

But I prefer it if Leia actually learned some Force techniques in the 30-plus years since Luke promised to teach her.

I honestly don't care either way. Leia's not a space wizard, and I like the idea of her space magic use being somewhat unconscious.

Of course, this does raise the question of why Leia needed Luke to fight the First Order, but there are other explanations that can be offered for that (Luke is a legend while Leia is a discredited politician, Leia doesn't want to confront her son personally, as a general Leia is needed to run the Resistance and can't risk herself personally in battle).

TLJ was about the power of legends. Luke was the great hero of the galaxy, who turned Darth Vader and helped topple the Empire. Therefore, the sight of the great hero, the mighty Jedi Knight Luke Skywalker might presumably be a great propaganda coup for the Resistance. Can he beat the First Order on his own? Probably not. But he might be able to get enough people to rally to the cause. Eventually he believed in himself, and lent his credibility to their cause. Hence the children repeating his story at the end.

[Galvatron]

TLJ was about the power of legends. Luke was the great hero of the galaxy, who turned Darth Vader and helped topple the Empire. Therefore, the sight of the great hero, the mighty Jedi Knight Luke Skywalker might presumably be a great propaganda coup for the Resistance. Can he beat the First Order on his own? Probably not. But he might be able to get enough people to rally to the cause. Eventually he believed in himself, and lent his credibility to their cause. Hence the children repeating his story at the end.

Unfortunately, the ST has don't a pretty shit job of making the First Order menacing enough to raise any doubt that they'll be toppled like a Jenga tower.

[The Romulan Republic]

Of course we all know that the heroes are going to win in the end. Its a Star Wars film.

And is it unfortunate that the FO is portrayed as somewhat inept? I'm growing increasingly dubious of media that portrays fascist characters as impressive, "cool" bad asses. That trope was a lot more fun when fascists weren't taking control of government after government in the real world.

Actually, I think that the Resistance is frankly so weak at the end of TLJ that a comeback by the next film might lack credibility. I'm hoping they'll explore the Hux vs. Kylo infighting angle more- that would serve the duel purpose of giving the heroes a vulnerability to exploit, and showing that societies built on fear and brutality are not ultimately more stable or secure than free societies, which is a message that definitely needs to be heard, particularly right now.

Ideally you'd have villains that are capable threats but without falling into the trap of making the fascists seem "cool" or "bad ass", and I think that TLJ actually managed that pretty well with Kylo Ren (his defeat of Snoke and his ordering the walkers to fire everything they had at Luke before trying to face him one on one were both genuinely intelligent moves, but emotionally he still is ultimately revealed to be a pathetic, insecure man-child). It did not manage it with Hux, who is very much a joke villain at this point.

Snoke is also fairly impressive from what we see of him- there just isn't enough of it before his demise.

Unfortunately, with Phasma wasted and Snoke gone, they're down to one effective villain if they don't retcon presumably dead characters as still alive. I guess they'll have to rely on shear firepower to be a threat. Or bringing in Luke's former students who joined Kylo/the Knights of Ren, finally.

[Galvatron]

I know this is a sensitive topic for you, but I don't think my politics were negatively influenced because I thought Darth Vader was awesome during my formative years. At some point we need to allow Star Wars to be escapist fiction again and stop injecting it with overt social commentary for the purpose of either promoting or damaging someone's real-life ideological agenda.

[The Romulan Republic]

I know this is a sensitive topic for you, but I don't think my politics were negatively influenced because I thought Darth Vader was awesome during my formative years. At some point we need to allow Star Wars to be escapist fiction again and stop injecting it with overt social commentary for the purpose of either promoting or damaging someone's real-life ideological agenda.

I can't speak to how it affected you, but I do think we would be naïve to say that the stories we hear and see have no bearing on peoples' values and attitudes. Its not just Star Wars, of course- there are any number of fictional franchises that portray brutal, thuggish hard men as heroes and so on. And I do think that that is reflected in a populace where, for example, a significant percentage of the public sees Trump's bullying as strength. So its nice to get a bit of antidote to that from time to time.

Of course, its also something of a chicken and egg situation. Are these attitudes so prevalent because of media that encourages them, or is that media so popular because those attitudes are a common feature of human psychology? Probably some of both.

Also, I'll reiterate my view that there is no such thing as a-political fiction. Everything, literally everything, has potential political implications, from obvious stuff like which party or candidate you vote for, down to what food you eat (For example, is it moral to eat meat?) or what stores you shop at (Do you buy your clothes from a company that uses sweat shops in the third world?). Even wanting to be a-political is a political position with political implications. Now, granted, there's a right way and a wrong way to do it- simplistic, ham-fisted analogies that ruin suspension of disbelief a wrong way, in my opinion. And of course there are other ways to experience a creative work- a good story can be appreciated on multiple levels, generally. But when I hear someone say that don't want a movie or show to be political, what they really mean is that they don't want it to express political views that make them feel uncomfortable. Because there is no such thing as an a-political work. Its simply not possible.

I'm truly sorry if that view is frustrating to others who just want their escapist media, but there it is.

Edit: Seriously, there are times when I think that I'd be a happier person if I could turn that part of my brain off and not look at everything from a political perspective. It isn't happening any time soon, though.

[Galvatron]

Let's just hope that the villains you're so worried about the psychologically feeble among us striving to emulate will continue to receive their well-deserved comeuppance in the end. I always thought that was supposed to be the ultimate takeaway from epic "good versus evil" stories like Star Wars anyway.

[Gandalf]

TLJ was about the power of legends. Luke was the great hero of the galaxy, who turned Darth Vader and helped topple the Empire. Therefore, the sight of the great hero, the mighty Jedi Knight Luke Skywalker might presumably be a great propaganda coup for the Resistance. Can he beat the First Order on his own? Probably not. But he might be able to get enough people to rally to the cause. Eventually he believed in himself, and lent his credibility to their cause. Hence the children repeating his story at the end.

Unfortunately, the ST has don't a pretty shit job of making the First Order menacing enough to raise any doubt that they'll be toppled like a Jenga tower.

I really dislike internet review videos. Is there anything there that I can't glean from the rest of your post?

[Galvatron]

They rant and rave too much, like a bumbling Saturday morning cartoon villain from the 80s.

[Gandalf]

Isn't that their point? In an age of general hopelessness, the blusterer wins because at least they offer something. Luke's sacrifice offered a new hope, which will presumably help the Resistance be a credible threat to the First Order.

[ray245]

Of course we all know that the heroes are going to win in the end. Its a Star Wars film.

And is it unfortunate that the FO is portrayed as somewhat inept? I'm growing increasingly dubious of media that portrays fascist characters as impressive, "cool" bad asses. That trope was a lot more fun when fascists weren't taking control of government after government in the real world.

Actually, I think that the Resistance is frankly so weak at the end of TLJ that a comeback by the next film might lack credibility. I'm hoping they'll explore the Hux vs. Kylo infighting angle more- that would serve the duel purpose of giving the heroes a vulnerability to exploit, and showing that societies built on fear and brutality are not ultimately more stable or secure than free societies, which is a message that definitely needs to be heard, particularly right now.

Ideally you'd have villains that are capable threats but without falling into the trap of making the fascists seem "cool" or "bad ass", and I think that TLJ actually managed that pretty well with Kylo Ren (his defeat of Snoke and his ordering the walkers to fire everything they had at Luke before trying to face him one on one were both genuinely intelligent moves, but emotionally he still is ultimately revealed to be a pathetic, insecure man-child). It did not manage it with Hux, who is very much a joke villain at this point.

Snoke is also fairly impressive from what we see of him- there just isn't enough of it before his demise.

Unfortunately, with Phasma wasted and Snoke gone, they're down to one effective villain if they don't retcon presumably dead characters as still alive. I guess they'll have to rely on sheer firepower to be a threat. Or bringing in Luke's former students who joined Kylo/the Knights of Ren, finally.

The strength of a hero or heroes lies in their ability to counter an impressive villain and inspire others to do so. In the OT, as impressive as the Empire was in their discipline, strength and etc, the rebellion showed numerous strengths of their own as well.

Was there infighting among the rebel leaders when they realized the Millenium Falcon was tracked and the Empire was on its way? The rebellion was just as effective and disciplined as the empire. Did they panic and break into internal conflict and argument when the Empire attacked Hoth? Not really considering they've organised a good, orderly retreat and scattered their forces without much problem.

TLJ is problematic because it showed both sides of the conflict as rather weak and pathetic in terms of organisation. Both the FO and Resistance devolve into petty rivalries and sabotaged their own plans. Many of the younger directors seem rather bad in terms of depicting a well-run organisation on screen, both good guys and bad guys alike.

[The Romulan Republic]

Of course we all know that the heroes are going to win in the end. Its a Star Wars film.

And is it unfortunate that the FO is portrayed as somewhat inept? I'm growing increasingly dubious of media that portrays fascist characters as impressive, "cool" bad asses. That trope was a lot more fun when fascists weren't taking control of government after government in the real world.

Actually, I think that the Resistance is frankly so weak at the end of TLJ that a comeback by the next film might lack credibility. I'm hoping they'll explore the Hux vs. Kylo infighting angle more- that would serve the duel purpose of giving the heroes a vulnerability to exploit, and showing that societies built on fear and brutality are not ultimately more stable or secure than free societies, which is a message that definitely needs to be heard, particularly right now.

Ideally you'd have villains that are capable threats but without falling into the trap of making the fascists seem "cool" or "bad ass", and I think that TLJ actually managed that pretty well with Kylo Ren (his defeat of Snoke and his ordering the walkers to fire everything they had at Luke before trying to face him one on one were both genuinely intelligent moves, but emotionally he still is ultimately revealed to be a pathetic, insecure man-child). It did not manage it with Hux, who is very much a joke villain at this point.

Snoke is also fairly impressive from what we see of him- there just isn't enough of it before his demise.

Unfortunately, with Phasma wasted and Snoke gone, they're down to one effective villain if they don't retcon presumably dead characters as still alive. I guess they'll have to rely on sheer firepower to be a threat. Or bringing in Luke's former students who joined Kylo/the Knights of Ren, finally.

The strength of a hero or heroes lies in their ability to counter an impressive villain and inspire others to do so. In the OT, as impressive as the Empire was in their discipline, strength and etc, the rebellion showed numerous strengths of their own as well.

Was there infighting among the rebel leaders when they realized the Millenium Falcon was tracked and the Empire was on its way? The rebellion was just as effective and disciplined as the empire. Did they panic and break into internal conflict and argument when the Empire attacked Hoth? Not really considering they've organised a good, orderly retreat and scattered their forces without much problem.

TLJ is problematic because it showed both sides of the conflict as rather weak and pathetic in terms of organisation. Both the FO and Resistance devolve into petty rivalries and sabotaged their own plans. Many of the younger directors seem rather bad in terms of depicting a well-run organisation on screen, both good guys and bad guys alike.

I think that TLJ is in part a deliberate depiction of a crisis of confidence, on both sides. But XI should be a much more straight-forward good guys vs. bad guys film, or possibly show the Resistance succeeding by being united (inspired by Luke's sacrifice and Leia's death) while the First Order implodes into infighting. Just my opinion.

Isn't that their point? In an age of general hopelessness, the blusterer wins because at least they offer something. Luke's sacrifice offered a new hope, which will presumably help the Resistance be a credible threat to the First Order.

TLJ was pretty blatantly taking shots at modern political cynicisms, particularly with DJ and the "both sides" narrative. And yes, in an era of cynicism, a "strong" bully can have a lot of appeal to the disillusioned (see Trump, Donald J.).

Luke sacrificing himself was about showing that the old ideals still have power, even if the old institutions die away.

Let's just hope that the villains you're so worried about the psychologically feeble among us striving to emulate will continue to receive their well-deserved comeuppance in the end. I always thought that was supposed to be the ultimate takeaway from epic "good versus evil" stories like Star Wars anyway.

Well, I very much doubt Abrams the OT imitator is going to go for a villains win ending in either case.

On an unrelated note, in response to complaints that they seem to just be bringing Lando back out of desperation because they've killed off all the other big OT characters (besides Chewie, R2, and C3PO), it occurs to me that if all they want is an OT face, they don't need Lando. Its a sucker's bet that Luke will be back as a Force Ghost in IX.

[ray245]

I think that TLJ is in part a deliberate depiction of a crisis of confidence, on both sides. But XI should be a much more straight-forward good guys vs. bad guys film, or possibly show the Resistance succeeding by being united (inspired by Luke's sacrifice and Leia's death) while the First Order implodes into infighting. Just my opinion.

Kinda hard to take both sides seriously after all the mess we've seen. The set-up in TLJ makes the war feels like too petty little children fighting over their playground while the adults carry on with business as usual ( The Canto Bright sequence and the rest of the Galaxy ignoring Leia seem to suggest this is a possibility).

[The Romulan Republic]

I think that TLJ is in part a deliberate depiction of a crisis of confidence, on both sides. But XI should be a much more straight-forward good guys vs. bad guys film, or possibly show the Resistance succeeding by being united (inspired by Luke's sacrifice and Leia's death) while the First Order implodes into infighting. Just my opinion.

Kinda hard to take both sides seriously after all the mess we've seen. The set-up in TLJ makes the war feels like too petty little children fighting over their playground while the adults carry on with business as usual ( The Canto Bright sequence and the rest of the Galaxy ignoring Leia seem to suggest this is a possibility).

More like the First Order has already grown so strong that most of the galaxy figures its safer to just be collaborators than resist them openly.

Whether it is plausible that they could have grown so strong so quickly is another matter, but that's TFA's mess more than TLJ's.

[ray245]

More like the First Order has already grown so strong that most of the galaxy figures its safer to just be collaborators than resist them openly.

Whether it is plausible that they could have grown so strong so quickly is another matter, but that's TFA's mess more than TLJ's.

The thing is neither side has shown themselves as the ideal leaders to lead a whole Galaxy. As of TLJ, the leaders of the two respective factions are Kylo Ren and Poe. Neither the FO nor the resistance feels like capable leading bodies for the Galaxy at large. The resistance/rebellion is so weak that they'll likely be taken over by some other rebel force that is run by more influential leaders.

[The Romulan Republic]

More like the First Order has already grown so strong that most of the galaxy figures its safer to just be collaborators than resist them openly.

Whether it is plausible that they could have grown so strong so quickly is another matter, but that's TFA's mess more than TLJ's.

The thing is neither side has shown themselves as the ideal leaders to lead a whole Galaxy. As of TLJ, the leaders of the two respective factions are Kylo Ren and Poe. Neither the FO nor the resistance feels like capable leading bodies for the Galaxy at large. The resistance/rebellion is so weak that they'll likely be taken over by some other rebel force that is run by more influential leaders.

Like, say, a legendary businessman/general known for his charm?

Yeah, I don't think Poe (yet) has the chops to be a good political leader. Military leader, possibly, if he really has outgrown his impulsiveness. But Lando would honestly be a better political leader, I think. Certainly a better peace time political leader.

The FO doesn't have a good leader, no, but then its a fascist theocracy. Hopefully, its lack of good leadership will be its undoing.

I doubt it will go this way, but my preferred outcome would be:

Lando: Political leader of the Resistance/New New Republic (maybe try a different name, like Galactic Federation or Galactic Commonwealth or something).

Poe: Military leader.

Rey: Jedi leader.

That's a solid trifecta, especially as Poe and Rey gain more experience.

[ray245]

Like, say, a legendary businessman/general known for his charm?

Yeah, I don't think Poe (yet) has the chops to be a good political leader. Military leader, possibly, if he really has outgrown his impulsiveness. But Lando would honestly be a better political leader, I think. Certainly a better peace time political leader.

The FO doesn't have a good leader, no, but then its a fascist theocracy. Hopefully, its lack of good leadership will be its undoing.

I doubt it will go this way, but my preferred outcome would be:

Lando: Political leader of the Resistance/New New Republic (maybe try a different name, like Galactic Federation or Galactic Commonwealth or something).

Poe: Military leader.

Rey: Jedi leader.

That's a solid trifecta, especially as Poe and Rey gain more experience.

There's still being heavily reliant on older characters to support the new cast. This is why the OT triumvirate works much better than the new cast. Leia is the political leader ( with the aristocratic heritage and political upbringing), Han is the military leader ( he's made a general and has always been portrayed as a good and responsible leader of men) and Luke is the Jedi hero/warrior/leader.

The new movies lack any new character that can step into the shoes of Leia as a political leader.

[The Romulan Republic]

Let's be honest: how often did Leia act as a political leader in a more than theoretical sense in the OT? Pretty much just when befriending the Ewoks, sort of.

Her main role in the OT was as a commando/spy, and as a love interest.

[Rogue 9]

I really dislike internet review videos. Is there anything there that I can't glean from the rest of your post?

The video's premise is that the First Order is not intimidating compared to the Empire because its leaders act like emotionally unstable children rather than people in control. It centers around the fact that Kylo Ren and Hux both lose their tempers on a regular basis (compared to the Imperial officers, who never resorted to abject screaming at people) and that Snoke humiliates both of them in front of their subordinates, thus undermining their authority. People who are in control of a situation don't need to scream. Tarkin didn't scream at Leia to tell him where the Rebel base was; he just issued his threat and then when he got annoyed dropped the veneer of civility and began invading her personal space, but he didn't lose his temper. When Vader disciplined a subordinate in front of the men, said subordinate was replaced rather than being humiliated and then left in command. Vader respects Tarkin's authority when he's told to stop choking Admiral Motti even though he could kill everyone else in the room; this tells the audience that the Empire has rules and that people respect those rules, which implies structure, which implies power. By contrast, the First Order acts like a bunch of undisciplined jackasses only held in line by the fact that their leaders can and will wig out and kill them. It really undermines their credibility as villains.

[ray245]

Let's be honest: how often did Leia act as a political leader in a more than theoretical sense in the OT? Pretty much just when befriending the Ewoks, sort of.

Her main role in the OT was as a commando/spy, and as a love interest.

Not explicitly stated, but there's always hints sprinkled throughout the movies. She's a senator, royalty and a high-ranking member of the Rebel Alliance. Is any of the new characters even similar to Leia in this regard?

[The Romulan Republic]

Let's be honest: how often did Leia act as a political leader in a more than theoretical sense in the OT? Pretty much just when befriending the Ewoks, sort of.

Her main role in the OT was as a commando/spy, and as a love interest.

Not explicitly stated, but there's always hints sprinkled throughout the movies. She's a senator, royalty and a high-ranking member of the Rebel Alliance. Is any of the new characters even similar to Leia in this regard?

Not among the surviving Resistance characters, no.

But again, those titles were largely in-name-only, as far as what we saw on-screen in the OT. Leia functions in the OT as a military officer and commando, whatever her official title. Her royalty never once plays an important role in the plot, and I would argue has little bearing on her or anyone else's character development.

[ray245]

Not among the surviving Resistance characters, no.

But again, those titles were largely in-name-only, as far as what we saw on-screen in the OT. Leia functions in the OT as a military officer and commando, whatever her official title. Her royalty never once plays an important role in the plot, and I would argue has little bearing on her or anyone else's character development.

Her former status as a senator in the Imperial Senate still matters. Her title as a royalty still matters. The fact that the imperial officers were worried about doing too much harm to her prior to the abolishment of the Imperial Senate still matters. Those are the stuff that hints at the idea that Leia is a viable political leader.

In other words, it's the world-building in the OT that sells the idea of Leia as a viable politician. It's not the plot nor the character development that sells this idea.

[The Romulan Republic]

Not among the surviving Resistance characters, no.

But again, those titles were largely in-name-only, as far as what we saw on-screen in the OT. Leia functions in the OT as a military officer and commando, whatever her official title. Her royalty never once plays an important role in the plot, and I would argue has little bearing on her or anyone else's character development.

Her former status as a senator in the Imperial Senate still matters. Her title as a royalty still matters. The fact that the imperial officers were worried about doing too much harm to her prior to the abolishment of the Imperial Senate still matters. Those are the stuff that hints at the idea that Leia is a viable political leader.

In other words, it's the world-building in the OT that sells the idea of Leia as a viable politician. It's not the plot nor the character development that sells this idea.

As a bit of world-building its nice, maybe. But when does it matter to her role in the story? Never. So its hard to convince me that not having a main character with a royal title somehow cripples the ST.