StarDestroyer.Net BBS

Tribble wrote: 2019-01-23 12:18amIIRC in Ontario's case at least it had more to do with tightening environmental regulations and in particular the decision to faze out all of our coal power plants. For CO2 emissions the vast majority comes from vehicles and manufacturing, while the majority of the power grid is nuclear and hydro (with gas plants and wind turbines filling out most of the remainder). Unfortunately the current conversion to renewable energy has been axed by the current government, but it's still a start.

As for other countries, IIRC on other threads it has been mentioned that even major polluters on non-western countries like China are starting to clamp down on pollution.

Ontario was able to faze out coal plants because a significant amount of our industry has shut down and relocated elsewhere, and with the scheduled GM plant closure next year it's a trend that's gonna continue. We tightened regulations which drove up costs and industries decided to close shop and move elsewhere.

This is something that's also happening in China, some of their dirtiest and most toxic industries are starting to relocate to other poorer countries in the area as the costs of labour start going up in China.

aerius wrote: 2019-01-23 12:49am

Tribble wrote: 2019-01-23 12:18amIIRC in Ontario's case at least it had more to do with tightening environmental regulations and in particular the decision to faze out all of our coal power plants. For CO2 emissions the vast majority comes from vehicles and manufacturing, while the majority of the power grid is nuclear and hydro (with gas plants and wind turbines filling out most of the remainder). Unfortunately the current conversion to renewable energy has been axed by the current government, but it's still a start.

As for other countries, IIRC on other threads it has been mentioned that even major polluters on non-western countries like China are starting to clamp down on pollution.

Ontario was able to faze out coal plants because a significant amount of our industry has shut down and relocated elsewhere, and with the scheduled GM plant closure next year it's a trend that's gonna continue. We tightened regulations which drove up costs and industries decided to close shop and move elsewhere.

This is something that's also happening in China, some of their dirtiest and most toxic industries are starting to relocate to other poorer countries in the area as the costs of labour start going up in China.

Actually, if I am reading this page correctly it seems like the amount of energy production has increased overall:

https://www.ontario.ca/page/end-coal

In 2003 ~25% of the power grid (~7,587MW) was powered by coal. By 2014 all coal plants were shutdown.

However, in the meantime significant other capacity was added to the system:

A new supply mix for ontario
Coal-fired electricity was replaced by a mix of baseload, intermittent and peaking capacity and a strong conservation and demand management approach
Nuclear: +1,500 MW
Two units at Bruce Power were refurbished and returned to service in 2012.
Natural Gas: +5,500 MW
The addition of new combined cycle facilities, a peaking plant and combined heat and power facilities.
Non-Hydro Renewables: +5,500 MW
Added generation under procurements including Renewable Energy Standard Offer Program (RESOP), and Feed-in-Tariff Program (FIT).

So apparently there was ~12,500MW added to the grid during the same timeframe, which after subtracting coal production still leaves a net gain of ~4,913MW.


That's not to say that relocating industries didn't have an impact as well of course.

And I forgot to add that at least in terms of higher energy costs a lot of that has to due with other things rather than the regulations themselves (such as the cancelled gas plants, selling off hydro one, restructuring the debt for short term relief while increasing it down the line, axing major deals costing millions, firing the CEO of hydro one during a major deal which causes the deal to fold etc).

In spite of all that I'd still say that getting rid of coal overall was well worth it in the long run.

Zaune wrote: 2019-01-22 05:25pmJust out of idle curiosity, which decade do people of our generation talk about as "the good old days" in Russia?

We used to like the 1980s. But it came from a general nostalgia for stability. I hear nowadays the younger lot find the early Putin years (pre-2014) “good old days”.

Tribble wrote:As for other countries, IIRC on other threads it has been mentioned that even major polluters on non-western countries like China are starting to clamp down on pollution.

Yes, the consequences of this are basically relocating the dirtiest industries to the interior or to even poorer nations (Vietnam, Cambodia, Laos, Bangladesh, Indonesia etc.). Also China stopped accepting a lot of Western garbage recently, and as a result, many smaller cities would be forced to stop recycling. SCMP article.

K. A. Pital wrote: 2019-01-23 03:43amWe used to like the 1980s. But it came from a general nostalgia for stability. I hear nowadays the younger lot find the early Putin years (pre-2014) “good old days”.

I see. Well, I'm pretty sure that nostalgia for either of those eras requires glossing over at least as many not-so-rosy parts as nostalgia for the Nineties, so you might want to cut us Westerners a little slack.

And for what it's worth, part of my nostalgic memories that era include the part where Russia was having some proper elections and letting the political prisoners go home.

The late 1980s were desperate. Goods were in deficit, at some point it seemed the economy completely halted. But what followed made even these pretty shitty years look good by comparison. Few people like living in warzone-like conditions (and periphery did turn into a literal warzone).

No decade was „good“, all of them had their own share of the bad. Before the 1990s we had a perisistent deficit of consumer goods - after a huge share of the population died or fled, and wages dropped below survival levels, surely the deficit issue was solved, but woe to those

But the 90s seemed like a plague feast. Celebration in the moments of hardship is not well-taken.

I personally have no „best decade“. Nostalgia is also dangerous. Recreating the 90s is no more possible than restoring the Soviet Union. Longing for that feeling of total Western triumph will not lead to much good, just as the only thing Soviet nostalgia produced was Putin‘s oligarchic sub-imperialist state.

Tribble wrote: 2019-01-23 01:05amActually, if I am reading this page correctly it seems like the amount of energy production has increased overall:

https://www.ontario.ca/page/end-coal

In 2003 ~25% of the power grid (~7,587MW) was powered by coal. By 2014 all coal plants were shutdown.

However, in the meantime significant other capacity was added to the system:

A new supply mix for ontario
Coal-fired electricity was replaced by a mix of baseload, intermittent and peaking capacity and a strong conservation and demand management approach
Nuclear: +1,500 MW
Two units at Bruce Power were refurbished and returned to service in 2012.
Natural Gas: +5,500 MW
The addition of new combined cycle facilities, a peaking plant and combined heat and power facilities.
Non-Hydro Renewables: +5,500 MW
Added generation under procurements including Renewable Energy Standard Offer Program (RESOP), and Feed-in-Tariff Program (FIT).

So apparently there was ~12,500MW added to the grid during the same timeframe, which after subtracting coal production still leaves a net gain of ~4,913MW.


That's not to say that relocating industries didn't have an impact as well of course.

Installed capacity doesn't really mean anything, 20GW of wind doesn't produce the same amount of energy as 20GW or coal or 20GW of nuclear. Watts are a measure of power, not energy, and it's energy that matters most.

If we go back to 2005, electrical energy consumption in Ontario was 157TWh.
http://www.ieso.ca/en/Corporate-IESO/Me ... -Data/2005

As of 2018 it's down to 137TWh.
http://www.ieso.ca/en/Power-Data/Demand ... cal-Demand

If we go back to the link of the 2005 data, it says that nuclear was at 79TWh and coal was 30TWh.
In 2018, nuclear is up to 90TWh, coal is gone, and total consumption is down a bit over 20GWh. in other words, between the refurbished reactors coming back online and demand going down, we could shut down coal entirely and still have enough energy production to meet demand which is exactly what we did. Now, strictly speaking this isn't entirely true, summer peak demands are a thing so we needed to build some gas plants to handle the peak loads.

The article was about pop culture. Not about global standards of living. Ray called it - it's just the 90s teens turn now to be pandered to by the media empire because they're spending the money and making the decisions.

GuppyShark wrote: 2019-01-30 04:19am The article was about pop culture. Not about global standards of living. Ray called it - it's just the 90s teens turn now to be pandered to by the media empire because they're spending the money and making the decisions.

And this is somewhat universal as well. Kids who came from poverty and poorer countries in the 90s are adults making some money today. It could even be more nostalgic because kids entertainment are a form of escapism.

I think some of the older members have missed the entire point of this article because they are not kids in the 90s/2000s.

I think the underlying reason for the popularization/nostalgia of the 90s is simpler-- it's the last decade where such an appeal is possible. Ubiquitous internet and digitization brought with it the balkanization of mass media consumption across the globe, so everything that was made after, say, 2007 has and will have no meaningful mass appeal, because not enough people will remember experiencing it to warrant a trip down memory lane. Or, thanks to the permanence of the internet, one may indulge in a nostalgic look back at the past decades of the 2000s and beyond at her leisure. And, most importantly, one can do so independent of whims of a corporation who wants to harvest money from the successes of yesteryear.

Alferd Packer wrote: 2019-02-04 09:35pm I think the underlying reason for the popularization/nostalgia of the 90s is simpler-- it's the last decade where such an appeal is possible. Ubiquitous internet and digitization brought with it the balkanization of mass media consumption across the globe, so everything that was made after, say, 2007 has and will have no meaningful mass appeal, because not enough people will remember experiencing it to warrant a trip down memory lane. Or, thanks to the permanence of the internet, one may indulge in a nostalgic look back at the past decades of the 2000s and beyond at her leisure. And, most importantly, one can do so independent of whims of a corporation who wants to harvest money from the successes of yesteryear.

Not if 70s and 80s nostalgia wave is anything to go by. Kids willl always be less affected by real world issue than adults, if they are well shielded from the harsher realities of life.

In 10 years time we will start to see 2000s nostalgia.

Alferd Packer wrote: 2019-02-04 09:35pm I think the underlying reason for the popularization/nostalgia of the 90s is simpler-- it's the last decade where such an appeal is possible. Ubiquitous internet and digitization brought with it the balkanization of mass media consumption across the globe, so everything that was made after, say, 2007 has and will have no meaningful mass appeal, because not enough people will remember experiencing it to warrant a trip down memory lane. Or, thanks to the permanence of the internet, one may indulge in a nostalgic look back at the past decades of the 2000s and beyond at her leisure. And, most importantly, one can do so independent of whims of a corporation who wants to harvest money from the successes of yesteryear.

I highly question the claim that nothing with mass appeal has been made or is possible since 2007. If anything, the internet has made global culture more homogenized.

ray245 wrote: 2019-02-05 03:11pmNot if 70s and 80s nostalgia wave is anything to go by. Kids willl always be less affected by real world issue than adults, if they are well shielded from the harsher realities of life.

In 10 years time we will start to see 2000s nostalgia.

This too (I am both anticipating and dreading the day when a generation of fans praises the good old days of Star Wars Episodes VII-IX, and whines about how X-XII are ruining the franchise).

People tend to remember their childhoods fondly, with nostalgia (unless they had really shitty childhoods). Its a time of innocence, or lesser responsibilities and struggle, when your first memories and much of your personality are formed. This is likely to be even more marked for a lot of people who grew up in the '90s- who's childhood was the last time when everything seemed optimistic, and then came of age in a world that was defined by 9/11, the War in Iraq, the Great Recession, and Donald Trump, in addition to all the usual burdens of adulthood. No wonder they would look back on the 90s as a better time.

Its not all pining for an illusion of US hegemonic power and capitalist supremacy. Its just people being people.