Declawing cats..

[Darth Garden Gnome]

1.) Stop quoting everything, you're fucking up the format.

2.) Its hardly "traumatizing" for the cat. It hurts like getting a tooth pulled (or braces put on, ect.), for a couple of weeks at most, then the cat gets over it, and returns to his normal schedule of sleeping, eating, shitting, and sleeping some more.

[fgalkin]

OK, fine; there are still other factors to consider. The destruction of thousands of dollars worth of furniture all so the cat can avoid a couple weeks of pain; is it really worth it?

Again, there are sprays that efficiently stop the cat from scratching it.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[fgalkin]

1.) Stop quoting everything, you're fucking up the format.

2.) Its hardly "traumatizing" for the cat. It hurts like getting a tooth pulled (or braces put on, ect.), for a couple of weeks at most, then the cat gets over it, and returns to his normal schedule of sleeping, eating, shitting, and sleeping some more.

Well, how about losing the ability to climb? Also, it seems that you never had a cat, so stay out of this.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[Joe]

I'm sorry, but I don't see why people should place their faith, 100%, in a spray when a relatively non-problematic operation can solve the problem for good. It's too much of a risk to buy thousands of dollars worth of furniture and then hope that a spray is going to completely prevent a cat from destroying it.

[Kuroneko]

I'm sorry, but I don't see why people should place their faith, 100%, in a spray when a relatively non-problematic operation can solve the problem for good. It's too much of a risk to buy thousands of dollars worth of furniture and then hope that a spray is going to completely prevent a cat from destroying it.

My personal opinion is that in such cases, those people do not deserve to have a cat.

[Joe]

I'm sorry, but I don't see why people should place their faith, 100%, in a spray when a relatively non-problematic operation can solve the problem for good. It's too much of a risk to buy thousands of dollars worth of furniture and then hope that a spray is going to completely prevent a cat from destroying it.

My personal opinion is that in such cases, those people do not deserve to have a cat.

Right, better the cat be euthanized than have to go through a few weeks of pain in exchange for a lifetime of happiness.

[Kuroneko]

Right, better the cat be euthanized than have to go through a few weeks of pain in exchange for a lifetime of happiness.

If the primary motivation was the cat's life, I would agree with you. However, if that was truly case, it would be much simpler to donate to cat shelters to get better facilities (would probably wind up being cheaper in the long run, too).

I view claws as an integral part of the cat's psyche. As such, I find this practice not dissimilar to giving a homeless man a good house while and castrating them at the same time. I consider just giving them food and an adequate but very spartan shelter kinder.

[fgalkin]

I'm sorry, but I don't see why people should place their faith, 100%, in a spray when a relatively non-problematic operation can solve the problem for good. It's too much of a risk to buy thousands of dollars worth of furniture and then hope that a spray is going to completely prevent a cat from destroying it.

well, you do, of course realize that claws are an essential part of the cat's psyche? Without claws it wouldn't be able to climb, or "hunt"?

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[Joe]

I'm sorry, but I don't see why people should place their faith, 100%, in a spray when a relatively non-problematic operation can solve the problem for good. It's too much of a risk to buy thousands of dollars worth of furniture and then hope that a spray is going to completely prevent a cat from destroying it.

well, you do, of course realize that claws are an essential part of the cat's psyche? Without claws it wouldn't be able to climb, or "hunt"?

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

Of course, and that's why I said earlier in this thread that outdoor cats should not be declawed. Housecats, however, should be, according to the owner's wishes.

[fgalkin]

I'm sorry, but I don't see why people should place their faith, 100%, in a spray when a relatively non-problematic operation can solve the problem for good. It's too much of a risk to buy thousands of dollars worth of furniture and then hope that a spray is going to completely prevent a cat from destroying it.

well, you do, of course realize that claws are an essential part of the cat's psyche? Without claws it wouldn't be able to climb, or "hunt"?

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

Of course, and that's why I said earlier in this thread that outdoor cats should not be declawed. Housecats, however, should be, according to the owner's wishes.

I'm not disputing the owner's right to do that. I'm arguing that it's morally and ethically wrong, the question that was asked by the thread starter.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[Tsyroc]

My old cat managed to kill plenty of bugs and a few mice without any front claws. She also smacked the shit out of one of our puppies who thought it was cool to chase her. The cat would get sick of running and sit there waiting for the dog. The dog would get close and ,<thwap> <thwap> <thwap> the dog's taking shots to the face just like a boxer. When the cat got bored of this game she'd get up on some furniture or a counter where the dog couldn't bother her.

No one in my family has gotten a new cat since I was about 7 or 8 years old but at the time one of the reasons I recall for getting our cats declawed had to do with the kittens climbing the drapes and then getting stuck. They'd be hanging by one claw at near ceiling height. They also liked to climb up Christmas trees. More or less though, at that time if you intended to primarilly have a house cat you got it declawed. If it were going to be outside a lot you left the claws alone.

[Raoul Duke, Jr.]

Yes. A cat's primary defensive mechanism is its claws and teeth -- and unless you can guarantee that your treasured pet will never go outside, you cannot reasonably assume that your cat will never need that defensive equipment.

Declawing cats strikes me as simply an expression of human desire for convenience -- it prevents your kids from catching one in the chops if they piss the cat off, or saves your favorite table-cloth, for example.

Alternatives include educating young children that Fluffy is not a toy (hmm, novel idea!) and yanking his tail like a parachute cord hurts him. If you find that your cat is infuriated by your Rosie O'Donnell Thong-Time Table-Cloth, or what have you, you can either get rid of the object of the cat's ire or get rid of the cat.

But if you simply must declaw your cat for the sake of your own convenience, be fair -- make yourself an appointment to get de-knuckled.

[Tsyroc]

Yes. A cat's primary defensive mechanism is its claws and teeth -- and unless you can guarantee that your treasured pet will never go outside, you cannot reasonably assume that your cat will never need that defensive equipment.

Around here cats that go outside on a regular basis might as well ring the dinner bell for the coyotes. Claws or no claws. The local humane society won't let you adopt a cat if you tell them you intend to let it go outside. They even have statitistics on how much shorter the lifespan is of outside cats. IIRC outside cats live around 6-7 years, which is probably about half of what can be expected from an indoor cat.

Declawing cats strikes me as simply an expression of human desire for convenience -- it prevents your kids from catching one in the chops if they piss the cat off, or saves your favorite table-cloth, for example.

I agree.

Alternatives include educating young children that Fluffy is not a toy (hmm, novel idea!) and yanking his tail like a parachute cord hurts him. If you find that your cat is infuriated by your Rosie O'Donnell Thong-Time Table-Cloth, or what have you, you can either get rid of the object of the cat's ire or get rid of the cat.

Certainly there are plenty of people who get all kinds of pet animals (not to mention having children of their own) who don't take care of them correctly and don't want to put the effort in to train them correctly. However, it still comes down to which would you rather have. A bunch more euthanized cats or a bunch of declawed cats living fairly long lives as someone's pet.

But if you simply must declaw your cat for the sake of your own convenience, be fair -- make yourself an appointment to get de-knuckled.

Sorry, but the last time I heard that comment I was being berrated by some Cat Nazi about the cat my parent's had declawed when I was a kid, 20+ years earlier. Does PETA go around drawing this parallel or something because true or not it smacks their sort of propaganda.

Anyway, how do you feel about spaying and neutering? Body parts are being removed there and besides preventing unwanted kittens the surgery can change the behavior of cat involved.

By the way, even though I don't like the comment about getting de-knuckled it still convinced me that if I ever got a cat I would not be
getting it declawed.

[Sea Skimmer]

OK, fine; there are still other factors to consider. The destruction of thousands of dollars worth of furniture all so the cat can avoid a couple weeks of pain; is it really worth it?

Use scratching posts. They fail for most people because they don't realize that at least for a while you need one everywhere you cat scratches. After a while you can generally cut back to only one or two as the cat learns to use them.

[His Divine Shadow]

Yea, I agree with Durran Korr. You should esp. do it if you have small children, too.

Nah, my 3 year old nephew was picking up one of our cats once and she put her claws in his arm to try and get a better hold and he didn't mind it much.

[His Divine Shadow]

Scratched up arms are traumatizing to children. Children > cats.

A cat is the wrong pet if you have small children. It's as simple as that. I mean, if you had a pet alligator, and then de-tooth it because you have children in your house, would that be right?

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

Phis Tosh, I've had nearly a dozen cats during my whole life and they've been good to me.
Maybe I've gotten a few scratches as a kid but so what, whats the big deal?
Christ, if you can't take a few claws in your flesh, what does that say about you?

[His Divine Shadow]

Of course, I am not adverse to shooting one of the suckers if it walks on my vehicle.

Yes, I know, I am a heartless bastard.

Why? My cats always walk on my car, they've been doing it for years and not once have they remotely scracthed it.
Just don't fucking scare them if you find them on the car.

[Queeb Salaron]

I say chop their goddamned paws off and throw the baby out with the bathwater. I hate cats.

[Edi]

Fuck you, Queeb.

As for the rest of this thread, we had this exact same discussion a while back.
That thread is here.

And from that thread:

I wouldn't declaw a cat. While I value my furniture, I value my pets even more, and it isn't too much trouble clipping a cat's nails once every couple of weeks. If you keep them clipped short, the cat won't do much damage to the furniture (if any). Cats do a lot less damage than a large dog would, because even if the dog is well trained and doesn't chew furniture, its claws will tear up the floor in a hurry, yet nobody suggests declawing dogs.

If I were to take a dog, that'd mean that the nice, beautiful wooden floor in my apartment would in a couple of years be a mess of deep gouges and looking fucking ugly, but that would be my choice and I wouldn't have any grounds to complain about it or blame the dog. A couple of scratching posts for cats don't cost all that much, and it helps if you have carpets that don't mind being scratched (carpets made out of strips of cloth, I don't know the proper word for them in English). Besides, if cats are taught from the start what is acceptable and what is not, they learn. Especially if there are many cats in the house, the kittens learn by following the example of the grown-up ones, so all you have to do is teach the first cats right and the rest will take care of itself.

My gf has two cats, and about the most damage they have caused is drop a couple of flower vases. They've learned by example as kittens. Our previous cat was from a shelter, but even he didn't scratch the furniture (unless he was angry and wanted to make a show of defiance). We unfortunately had to take that cat back, because it was used to roaming outside and we couldn't do that (second-floor apartment in an apartment block) and my gf was a little scared of some of its aggressive behavior (she'd never had pets before, but if we were to take that cat now, we wouldn't take it back).

If cats are declawed simply because the convenience of lazy people requires it, then those people have fucked up values. Taking a pet means also taking responsibility for it, they aren't just use-and-throw-away commodities like tissues, something far too many people seem to forget when taking one. I'm one of those people who happen to think that mutilating a pet just for the sake of convenience is wrong, and if given a choice, I will choose a cat with claws over a declawed one. The trick is that when taking a cat from a shelter, it usually pays to observe them for a while, you can learn a lot about their personalities in just a short time.

I haven't changed my opinion a whit since then.

Edi

[jegs2]

Is it morally and ethically wrong to declaw a cat, meaning to remove the cat of its primary offensive/defensive maneuver?

I declawed our cat, but now I wish I hadn't done so. He's missing, and I fear a wild animal may have made a meal of him.

[Raoul Duke, Jr.]

Yes. A cat's primary defensive mechanism is its claws and teeth -- and unless you can guarantee that your treasured pet will never go outside, you cannot reasonably assume that your cat will never need that defensive equipment.

Around here cats that go outside on a regular basis might as well ring the dinner bell for the coyotes. Claws or no claws. The local humane society won't let you adopt a cat if you tell them you intend to let it go outside. They even have statitistics on how much shorter the lifespan is of outside cats. IIRC outside cats live around 6-7 years, which is probably about half of what can be expected from an indoor cat.

Which suggests that in your neck of the woods, a humane person would not adopt a cat.

Declawing cats strikes me as simply an expression of human desire for convenience -- it prevents your kids from catching one in the chops if they piss the cat off, or saves your favorite table-cloth, for example.

I agree.

Alternatives include educating young children that Fluffy is not a toy (hmm, novel idea!) and yanking his tail like a parachute cord hurts him. If you find that your cat is infuriated by your Rosie O'Donnell Thong-Time Table-Cloth, or what have you, you can either get rid of the object of the cat's ire or get rid of the cat.

Certainly there are plenty of people who get all kinds of pet animals (not to mention having children of their own) who don't take care of them correctly and don't want to put the effort in to train them correctly. However, it still comes down to which would you rather have. A bunch more euthanized cats or a bunch of declawed cats living fairly long lives as someone's pet.

What I would prefer, personally, is for people who adopt cats to take responsibility for their training and upbringing, instead of resorting to modification of the cat. A pet is a dependent, as much as a child is. If a person cannot or will not provide the animal the attention and maintenance it requires, they should forego adopting the animal.

But if you simply must declaw your cat for the sake of your own convenience, be fair -- make yourself an appointment to get de-knuckled.

Sorry, but the last time I heard that comment I was being berrated by some Cat Nazi about the cat my parent's had declawed when I was a kid, 20+ years earlier. Does PETA go around drawing this parallel or something because true or not it smacks their sort of propaganda.

It is a fairly clear-cut parallel.

Anyway, how do you feel about spaying and neutering? Body parts are being removed there and besides preventing unwanted kittens the surgery can change the behavior of cat involved.

Spaying/neutering doesn't endanger the life of the cat.

By the way, even though I don't like the comment about getting de-knuckled it still convinced me that if I ever got a cat I would not be
getting it declawed.

I don't know how to respond to that.

[Lagmonster]

Me, I don't declaw my cats. They're welcome to them, actually. Then again, they're indoor cats who I have yet to see claw my furniture. Then again seconded, I've gotten good at picking out pets with 'Mostly Harmless' personalities.

[Queeb Salaron]

Declawing cats doesn't take away their only offensive / defensive. I mean, they still have teeth, right?

[Ghost Rider]

I declawed our cat, but now I wish I hadn't done so. He's missing, and I fear a wild animal may have made a meal of him.

Sorry to hear that jegs...hope the kitty is safe.

As for you Queeb...fine, just don't buy or adopt one given your idea of a pet sounds more life flesh and blood toy.

Yeah, cats have teeth...have you seen them versus other animals, dumbass ?

As to it, no I don't declaw my cats...and I've spayed the surviving one because the other one's death was because of her cycles in going into heat caused a greater bulid-up of bacteria in her uterus.

[Korvan]

My old cat was an indoor / outdoor hybrid. During nights and inclement weather, she got to be inside, though banished to the basement. She would be outside by choice at all other times. She lived to be 21. (During her last few years, it did have to be one fine sunny day before she'd venture outdoors.)

Her claws were the reason all the dogs in the neighborhood would give her plenty of room. We returned home one day to find a basset hound trapped on our sundeck after our cat had decided to take a nap on the top step. He was too terrifed to go past her, so he just sat there howling.

She had three close calls during her life. The first was when she took a nap on top of the family car and my dad didn't notice when he went to go for a drive. It was only when oncoming cars kept honking that he stopped and saw her, still hanging on for dear life.

Her second brush with death came when while at the lake, she became the prey of a cougar. She lead the cougar over the deck of our cottage where it got slowed down by our lawn furniture (destroying most of it in the process) giving her time to hide in a narrow crawl space.

Her final close call came when, in her autumn years, she tried to take on a much younger cat and lost. We almost lost her to infection, but she fought back and won this fight.

She had about as full a life as a cat could have. She raised two litters of kittens and two dogs as well. (One dog almost managed to master stalking, but he'd always lose patience and charge in barking). In hunting and fighting, she had no equal for many years till age slowed her down. Had she been declawed, she would've been just a shadow of her true self.