WW1 Submarine Warfare, Casus Belli and the Lusitania

[BlkbrryTheGreat]

The Lusitania was a dirty, dirty affair on the part of the British. From what I can remeber Winston Churchill was the Lord of Admiratly at the time and he ordered the Lusitina to enter an area where a submarine was known to be operating, further more he ordered it to reduce its speed to one half, and also ordered it not to zig-zag. The icing on the cake is that the Lusitiania WAS smuggling arms and acting as a "passenger vessel"... all while being listed in the British Fleet registry as an Auxilulary Cruiser.

The Germans actually got some sort of wind of this before the Lusitinia sailed and issued a warning in several major American newspapers, the day before the Lusitinia sailed, for people not to board ships entering the waters around Great Britian as they were considered a warzone.

[Sea Skimmer]

The Lusitania was a dirty, dirty affair on the part of the British. From what I can remeber Winston Churchill was the Lord of Admiratly at the time and he ordered the Lusitina to enter an area where a submarine was known to be operating, further more he ordered it to reduce its speed to one half, and also ordered it not to zig-zag. The icing on the cake is that the Lusitiania WAS smuggling arms and acting as a "passenger vessel"... all while being listed in the British Fleet registry as an Auxilulary Cruiser.

She was on the reserve list, but as I pointed out just about every European liner was. Before the war many nations government helped finance liners in exchange for them being built with provisions for military service and an agreement that they would be made available to the nations respective navies in time of war. Many where taken over, repainted armed and crewed by Germany, Britain and France during the war. But Lusitana never was and remained unarmed with civilian colors and crew. Most of those liners that where taken over by the Allies ended up as hospital ships and got sunk in that role.

[The_Nice_Guy]

The mess that was WW1 never really made sense, especially with so-and-so fighting so-and-so.

Why did the Americans side with the French and the British in the first place anyway? What were the reasons behind their siding with the British and not say, the Germans? If they had sided with the Germans, like in Turtledove's novel, what might have been the result?

And I thought the British were pretty thick with the Germans in the prior century, after Waterloo and all. How did they fall out with each other?

The Nice Guy

[Stormbringer]

The Lusitania was a dirty, dirty affair on the part of the British. From what I can remeber Winston Churchill was the Lord of Admiratly at the time and he ordered the Lusitina to enter an area where a submarine was known to be operating, further more he ordered it to reduce its speed to one half, and also ordered it not to zig-zag.

Any proof of that? All I've ever seen was conspiracy theorist's rants. The same people, usually, that talk about CIA conspiracies and black helicopters.

[Sea Skimmer]

Why did the Americans side with the French and the British in the first place anyway? What were the reasons behind their siding with the British and not say, the Germans? If they had sided with the Germans, like in Turtledove's novel, what might have been the result?

Lets see, side with the democracies or the authoritarian state run by its army?

[Pu-239]

The Germans had spies in the eastern ports. They had their own agents and loads of Irish who hated the British. They knew about the ammo, but as to wether or not the U-boat captain did, I don't know.

I've never seen a single thing to suggest that Germany knew there was ammunition on the Lusitanian or other liners, and given the tiny amounts involved its unlikely they would. Six hundred small crates of fuses and rifle rounds wasn't much when some freigthers where hauling a couple thousand tons of shells.

The British denied the existance of ammo because they thought it was the cause of the second explosion that sunk the ship. If Americans found out it was undeclared war material that sunk the ship after a minor torpedo hit, then they would have gone ape shit. The British of course claimed it was a second torpedo fired by the evil huns that did the ship in. Fast forward 85 years later, and we know it was neither a second torpedo nor ammo that sunk the ship, but probably overbearing steam pressure from flooding engine rooms.

Actually it was probably because the watertight integrity of ships of that time sucked shit. Boiler steam explosions as a result of cold-water contact are a real life version of sci fi brain bugs. There basically non-existent and don't do much of any damage in the rare cases when they do happen.

Many people seem to confuse boiler explosions that are a result of excessive pressure during operations with those that are caused by flooding, leading to a myth of these huge destructive blasts.

I thought it was exploding coal dust?

[Sea Skimmer]

I thought it was exploding coal dust?

That's just another theory, though coal dust explosions are also very rare and unlikely to occur when thousands of tons of water are flooding the bunkers. Really, the ship sank quickly because it had a huge hole in the side, it was moving quickly and the watertight integrity of the internal bulkheads was questionable at best. The dangers of progressive flooding where not very well understood in 1915, though in this case it happened very rapidly. That spawned many theories as to why she sank so quickly, but its unlikely any are correct.

[StarshipTitanic]

The Lusitania was a dirty, dirty affair on the part of the British. From what I can remeber Winston Churchill was the Lord of Admiratly at the time and he ordered the Lusitina to enter an area where a submarine was known to be operating, further more he ordered it to reduce its speed to one half, and also ordered it not to zig-zag. The icing on the cake is that the Lusitiania WAS smuggling arms and acting as a "passenger vessel"... all while being listed in the British Fleet registry as an Auxilulary Cruiser.

Bah, the ship's captian was a moron. He thought that ships were to zig-zag only after spotting a U-boat, not all the time. Anyway, it's half speed would still be sufficient to outrun the crappy U-boats of that day (would be about 13 knots). We may never know if it was carrying weapons, too, as the wreak is far too dangerious to navigate. Lastly, the British gov't heavily subsidized the Lusitania and her sistership the Mauritania to ensure they would have access to the ships in the event of war! So obvious they'd be on an Auxiliary list. In fact, the Lusitania was to become one but they had enough superliners so they allowed the Cunard Line to continue to operate it.

[acesand8s]

Why did the Americans side with the French and the British in the first place anyway? What were the reasons behind their siding with the British and not say, the Germans? If they had sided with the Germans, like in Turtledove's novel, what might have been the result?

At first US public opinion sided with Germany because of traditional animosity with Britain. But reports of German brutality in Belgium switched opinion to the British and French.

If the US joined Germany, the Central Powers would have won easily. In 1917, the Britain and France didn't have enough men left to stage an offensive. An American invasion of Canada and an end to American financial support would have doomed the Allies to a quick defeat.

And I thought the British were pretty thick with the Germans in the prior century, after Waterloo and all. How did they fall out with each other?

The Germans pissed the British off by trying to build a navy.

[Sea Skimmer]

If the US joined Germany, the Central Powers would have won easily. In 1917, the Britain and France didn't have enough men left to stage an offensive. An American invasion of Canada and an end to American financial support would have doomed the Allies to a quick defeat.

Acutally the Allies attacked throughout 1917, it was in 1918 that they basically ran out of men. Course by then America was bringing over 200-300,000 men a month.

[The_Nice_Guy]

And I thought the British were pretty thick with the Germans in the prior century, after Waterloo and all. How did they fall out with each other?

The Germans pissed the British off by trying to build a navy.

Gee, so that was the reason!

Ah, the games that nations play...

The Nice guy