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Pendragon wrote:Just you wait until Eon gets translated to english... *mutters and whinges*

I know not of what you speak, though your location makes me think of Linda Bergkvist...

Do you know of what I speak, though?

Hotfoot wrote:

Pendragon wrote:Just you wait until Eon gets translated to english... *mutters and whinges*

I know not of what you speak, though your location makes me think of Linda Bergkvist...

Do you know of what I speak, though?

Not a clue.

Eon is the flagship of swedish rpg's, and as far as I'm concerned, it rules supreme together with its cyberpunk cousin Neotech and historical ancestor Viking. All published by Neogames.

Keevan_Colton wrote:

Iceberg wrote:Of course, the White Wolf system has its own class structure, which is actually far more restrictive in terms of character conceptualization and development than the job-based class system of D&D3E/Star Wars d20, and light-years more restrictive than the attribute-based class system of d20 Modern (wherin "classes" are more like loose descriptors of a character - like Strong Hero, Fast Hero, Smart Hero).

Meanwhile, White Wolf games have class descriptors like "Brujah are rebels," "Malkavians are insane," "Ventrue are politicians," "Tremere are duplicitous," "Cultists of Ecstasy are pleasure freaks" (you get the idea).

Of course, the Cult of Ecstasy got a bit more depth in Mage Revised. Now they can be pleasure freaks or pain freaks.

Though these are general archetypes, they are not rules....want me to start quoting some of the books? You've a lot more freedom than in the WotC systems to create the particular character you want,

A few lines in the fat book, compared to an entire skinny book devoted to how to properly play a member of X splat.

I kind of prefer the "here's what you can do, now show me who you are" approach.

you could be completely different from the sterotypical member of a particular clan, or if you wish have no clan at all.....

In which game? Certainly not in Vampire (you must be of either a clan or Caitiff). Definitely not in Changeling (EVERY Changeling is a member of some Kith). Sometimes in Mage. Not in Wraith. I don't have enough experience with Werewolf or Hunter to say for sure in those games, but I doubt it there, too.

BTW, I enjoyed Changeling. It was the one WoD game I thought didn't utterly suck. So of course, White Wolf deep-sixed it.

the clan sterotypes are just suggestions aimed as much at the person running the game for figuring out the world as for the players to use.

The archetype is put in the book in very explicit terms. Do you want me to start quoting some of the books? The splatbooks, even? White Wolf splats are laid out with very explicit expectations as to how a character made from that splat "should" be played, and while it's certainly possible to play a character in that splat who's atypical (I once played a very sophisticated Brujah whose willpower was high enough that he never, ever Frenzied), the level to which the two-page writeups and splatbooks explicate the typical behavior of a character makes it unnecessarily difficult to define a character in contraposition to the splat's desired archetype.

Clans in Vampire are even more heavily archetype-dependent than is typical for a splat.

All that a D&D class really tells you is a character's job. A "4th level fighter" tells you that the character is an experienced adventurer who is an expert with weapons. But which weapons? What does that say about his (or her) personality? Why did he (or she) become a fighter, as opposed to a rogue or a wizard? These are questions that you can't answer from just knowing the character's class. But in White Wolf, you DO know a great deal about a character's personality by asking which splat he/she belongs to.

Telling you that I'm a computer engineer tells you absolutely nothing about my personality. All it tells you is what I do for a living. That's what a class should be - it's what you do, not who you are.

*mutters a bit* Its only since 3rd Ed, where they've moved to a hybrid skills/class system that this has begun to be addressed.

Actually, 2nd edition + Player's Option was far more flexible than you seem to think. Confusing as fuck when you were starting out with it, but quite flexible once you got used to it.

Your comparision of clans to classes is flawed...a better comparison would be to races......lets see....
Elves are nimble
Dwarves are tough
Halflings are happy
Favoured classes anyone?

I'm talking of splats in general (and don't get snippy with me, I've played Vampire, Mage, Changeling and Wraith, I know enough about White Wolf to know what I'm talking about). In general, splats tend to be a bizarre cross of class and race. And almost always couched heavily in terms of "X nearly always possesses trait Y."

As for the job thing....that's just it.....a person isnt thier job....your character should be a reflection of thier intrests, personality etc....otherwise it isnt roleplaying its a war game of some sort.......

No, a person ISN'T their job. And that's an argument against Storyteller (where to a great degree, your personality IS dictated by your splat, either by agreement with or contradiction from the established sterotype), not against D&D (where there very explicitly is no stereotypical personality associated with a given class).

White Wolf: To Pretentiously Do What Many Have Done Before.

Pendragon wrote:Not a clue.

Then allow me to educate you.

Eon is the flagship of swedish rpg's, and as far as I'm concerned, it rules supreme together with its cyberpunk cousin Neotech and historical ancestor Viking. All published by Neogames.

My agents shall attempt to reveal information concerning this subject. Cyberpunk is always fun.

Still, I maintain that Silhouette rocks so hard diamonds are regularly formed.

Hotfoot wrote:

Iceberg wrote: Mekton Z, BESM and Silhouette are three different ways of getting the same basic result - a very nearly class-free method of character generation. I'm quite attached to Mekton Z myself (I've had it for the last 9 years).

Mekton Zeta was the alpha version of Jovian Chronicles, as I understand it. Core Silhouette is coming out in a few weeks, so I'll give you a play-by-play as to how they've updated the rules. From the scuttlebutt on the DP9 mailing lists, it's looking damn good.

Mekton (R. Talsorian Games) and Silhouette (Ianus Press/Dream Pod 9) are actually completely separate systems with similar design goals, so it's unsurprising that they reflect each other in many important respects. The original version of the Jovian Chronicles setting was written using the Mekton II system.

There's the difference between Sil and D20. Sil uses archetypes to show what skills a character working in a specific profession should or commonly has. D20 tells you what skills they will have, then imposes penalties on you for attempting to add anything else. You have to jump through some ungodly hoops to get a bard who can read lips, FFS. Then there's the rampant stereotyping, but that's another rant.

I'll be glad when all of my D&D characters are converted to Core Silhouette.

Cross-class skills aren't really a penalty - and this is better illustrated in d20 Modern than in D&D3E. Cross-class skills are the default condition of skills.

Iceberg wrote:Mekton (R. Talsorian Games) and Silhouette (Ianus Press/Dream Pod 9) are actually completely separate systems with similar design goals, so it's unsurprising that they reflect each other in many important respects. The original version of the Jovian Chronicles setting was written using the Mekton II system.

I sit corrected then. April 29th will prove to be a glorious day, nonetheless.

Cross-class skills aren't really a penalty - and this is better illustrated in d20 Modern than in D&D3E. Cross-class skills are the default condition of skills.

Bleah, that doesn't really do anything in D20's favor. Besides, it still doesn't explain the class-specific skills or the special powers and abilities inherant in specific classes.

According to my copy of the PHB, the only skill that's class-specific is Use Magic Device (specific to Bard and Rogue). Or did you mean class-specific abilities?

Iceberg wrote:According to my copy of the PHB, the only skill that's class-specific is Use Magic Device (specific to Bard and Rogue). Or did you mean class-specific abilities?

Read Lips is Rogue only, which makes no fucking sense.

There might be a few others.

Skills. Especially M4|) 5k1llz.

Why have classes when skills define your occupation? Hell, add some new Knolwedge, Dexterity, or Perception skills/specializations, I could have any 'class' I wanted, from Foozball Player, to Badass Pimp, to Gambling Drunken Kung Fu Master, to Infantile Crybaby.

*Rolls 5D+2 of Intimidation: tantrum, to make Spanky come in here and back him up*

D6 all they way, baby.

Darth Utsanomiko wrote:D6 all they way, baby.

Funny you should mention that. Silhouette tends to agree. Though I'd like to see some models for other dice as well, working out the probability curves is a bitch.

You WILL succumb to the power of the Pod.

Having a gigantic character base is good, but games based soley on numbers get boring to me rather quickly. When its rolls instead of you actually do something i tend to get all -_- .... I liked Vagrant story because it was heavilly skill bassed, along with parasite eve, and brave fencer musashi... while the final fantasys ( like 5 and 9 ) are really good because of their class selection, but i like the hand eye quardination which is involved in more skill bassed RPGs....

...is that even what this thread is asking ?

Hotfoot wrote:

Pendragon wrote:Not a clue.

Then allow me to educate you.

Eon is the flagship of swedish rpg's, and as far as I'm concerned, it rules supreme together with its cyberpunk cousin Neotech and historical ancestor Viking. All published by Neogames.

My agents shall attempt to reveal information concerning this subject. Cyberpunk is always fun.

Still, I maintain that Silhouette rocks so hard diamonds are regularly formed.

Silhourtte does rock hard, and actually knew about it. It was the Linda Bergkvist comment that left me hanging.
As much as I like RPG's it easy to distract me from them using women.

Iceberg wrote: There's no such thing as a truly class-free roleplaying game - every RPG has a set of archetypes (usually with game-mechanics benefits for choosing an archetype) which can be loosely thought of as classes, in order to facilitate play by getting characters into in-party roles.

Okay, but what about games that lack archetypes, like FUDGE, GURPS, Västmark, Playelf, Babylon Project, etc?

Iceberg wrote:Job-based classing is very good, because it tells you what people do. Personality-based classing is very bad, because it provides a ready-made crutch to make role-playing easier.

That's a very good point. I've been looking at RIFTS now, and despite the fact that the system is fairly horrific, I vastly prefer specific archetypes like "vagabond" to the simultaneously generic and confining d20 classes. Not to mention the fact that I have to plan ahead for several levels if I want to accquire certain feats in d20... eugh. I hate systems that force conformity.

Pendragon wrote:Silhourtte does rock hard, and actually knew about it. It was the Linda Bergkvist comment that left me hanging.
As much as I like RPG's it easy to distract me from them using women.

Ah, well I can understand that. Especially women who are such talented writers and artists.

Eleas wrote:

Iceberg wrote: There's no such thing as a truly class-free roleplaying game - every RPG has a set of archetypes (usually with game-mechanics benefits for choosing an archetype) which can be loosely thought of as classes, in order to facilitate play by getting characters into in-party roles.

Okay, but what about games that lack archetypes, like FUDGE, GURPS, Västmark, Playelf, Babylon Project, etc?

All games which are not popular where I live (I've never even seen Vastmark or Playelf). GURPS lacks archetypes in the main system because it's supposed to be "universal" and "generic" (read: NOT VERY GOOD). IMO, if you want to play a GURPS-like game, you'd do much better to buy Hero 5th and play that instead.

Iceberg wrote:Job-based classing is very good, because it tells you what people do. Personality-based classing is very bad, because it provides a ready-made crutch to make role-playing easier.

That's a very good point. I've been looking at RIFTS now, and despite the fact that the system is fairly horrific, I vastly prefer specific archetypes like "vagabond" to the simultaneously generic and confining d20 classes. Not to mention the fact that I have to plan ahead for several levels if I want to accquire certain feats in d20... eugh. I hate systems that force conformity.[/quote]
You should see later books in Rifts. Ugh. They have an OCC, RCC or PCC for every job you could conceivably want to do (compare to D&D, where most non-PCs fall into either the "Commoner" or "Expert" character classes). Rifts's class system is an example of where less would definitely be more.

Hotfoot wrote:

Iceberg wrote: Mekton Z, BESM and Silhouette are three different ways of getting the same basic result - a very nearly class-free method of character generation. I'm quite attached to Mekton Z myself (I've had it for the last 9 years).

Mekton Zeta was the alpha version of Jovian Chronicles, as I understand it. Core Silhouette is coming out in a few weeks, so I'll give you a play-by-play as to how they've updated the rules. From the scuttlebutt on the DP9 mailing lists, it's looking damn good.

Hey, wait...you're on the mailing list? I'm a (semi-)regular poster on the JCML.

There's no such thing as a truly class-free roleplaying game - every RPG has a set of archetypes (usually with game-mechanics benefits for choosing an archetype) which can be loosely thought of as classes, in order to facilitate play by getting characters into in-party roles. Job-based classing is very good, because it tells you what people do. Personality-based classing is very bad, because it provides a ready-made crutch to make role-playing easier.

There's the difference between Sil and D20. Sil uses archetypes to show what skills a character working in a specific profession should or commonly has. D20 tells you what skills they will have, then imposes penalties on you for attempting to add anything else. You have to jump through some ungodly hoops to get a bard who can read lips, FFS. Then there's the rampant stereotyping, but that's another rant.

Plus there's no requirement to follow an archetype in Silhouette. All it does is show an example character to provide a player with the knowledge of what skills are recommended for (as an example) a Gear Pilot. If you want your Gear Pilot to be a medical doctor also, you can do that. It'll drain a crapload of skill points, and the character won't be as good at either of them as a specialist would be, but it's theoretically possible.

Iceberg wrote:Mekton (R. Talsorian Games) and Silhouette (Ianus Press/Dream Pod 9) are actually completely separate systems with similar design goals, so it's unsurprising that they reflect each other in many important respects. The original version of the Jovian Chronicles setting was written using the Mekton II system.

Righto. Those were the Green Books, Jovian Chronicles and The Europa Incident. I just happen to have a copy of each signed by Marc-Alexandre Vezina, since he was selling off his writer's copies to clear space, since he's now engaged. The Dragonstriker and Lucifer in the new Cislunar Space book were originally from those two books, though I am told the Dragonstriker has been modified from prototype form to a more suitable form for mass production.

I actually like levels, but I also don't think that new party members should be excluded from helping out the big-boys. I think that there should be considerably less emphasis on the high-end abilities that you gain as you progress, and that the newbies should be able to bring their own characters' unique talents into the fold more quickly.

A skill based system should theoretically allow faster specialization in specific skills.

The Nice Guy

The Dark wrote:Hey, wait...you're on the mailing list? I'm a (semi-)regular poster on the JCML.

Yup. I rarely post though, and when I do, I tend to post on the HGML. I'm on all three though.

Plus there's no requirement to follow an archetype in Silhouette. All it does is show an example character to provide a player with the knowledge of what skills are recommended for (as an example) a Gear Pilot. If you want your Gear Pilot to be a medical doctor also, you can do that. It'll drain a crapload of skill points, and the character won't be as good at either of them as a specialist would be, but it's theoretically possible.

For example, the lovely and talented Katja Sez is an extremely talented mechanic and a Gear Pilot.
However, to abuse a line, the ability to easily take skills not ordinarily considered to be part of your "archetype" is not only possible, it is...essential. You see, yes?

Righto. Those were the Green Books, Jovian Chronicles and The Europa Incident. I just happen to have a copy of each signed by Marc-Alexandre Vezina, since he was selling off his writer's copies to clear space, since he's now engaged.

You lucky bastard.

Skills, with a very wide meaning of the word "skills", no fixed skill list and a starting value different from zero. If the average man can do it, ulsess you have specified you are no good at it you can do it.

My ideal diced system is WaRP, the Over the Edge system. (My general ideal system is a resource-based diceless WaRP).

Anyway, Silhouette is a good system indeed, though I tend to tinker it haevily in my Tribe 8 campaign.