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Durandal wrote: Are you capable of actully comprehending anything anyone writes that doesn't relate to the penetration power of a firearm? When you're dealing with militant religious fundamentalists, arming their enemies isn't a good way to get them to like you.

Hello, Ad Hominem asshat.

I don't want our islamic fundie enemies pacified or sated - I want them DEAD
so they can't fuck with us or anyone else for that matter.

EDIT: And second of all, show me one fucking post where I wanked over
ballistics tables provided by Winchester, Remington, Nosler, Speer, et al

Durran Korr wrote:...if George Bush got on his knees, proclaimed his loyalty to Allah, slapped his wife and put her in a burqa, and denounced the Zionist oppressors in Israel, the Islamic, specifically the Arabic Islamic world would still hate us and want to destroy us.

Your quote made me think of this picture for some funny reason!

Durran Korr wrote:

Don't be absurd. They didn't just declare a jihad on the West for no reason. They did it because we don't live in a religious theocracy or beat our women into submission, in short, because we're different from them.

That's my point; Israel is just a red herring to distract the rest of the world from Islam's real beef with American and the rest of the West. The Arab nations do not care about the Palestinians being crushed by the Israeli boot; if they did, they would have long ago been resettled and this would be a non-issue.

The fact remains, however, that funding Israel has only made the United States an even bigger target. There are plenty of other nations which are even more liberal than we are, but they are not being targetted by al Qaeda. The United States is the big objective because of other reasons, like Israel. Not just Israel, mind you, but it doesn't exactly win us favor in their eyes.

MKSheppard wrote:Hello, Ad Hominem asshat.

No, that was an insult, clownfucker.

I don't want our islamic fundie enemies pacified or sated - I want them DEAD so they can't fuck with us or anyone else for that matter

Um ... okay ... ?

Nathan: He did? I don't remember anything about that.

Well, another article on the lies of Michael Moore. Nothing new there.

Durandal wrote:Nathan: He did? I don't remember anything about that.

Yep, Rommel was in on the plot to kill Hitler. In fact, that is how Rommel was killed. Some SS officers appeared on his doorstep one night, and, they themselves respecting Rommel, gave him the choice of being arrested or committing suicide, if I recall correctly.

Durandal wrote:

MKSheppard wrote:

Durandal wrote: And most people hate your Nazi avatars, as well. What does that have to do with anything?

Ok then, provide me with Erwin Rommel's NSDAP Party number then.

He served under Hitler, dumbass.

So did Werner von Braun. Guess we oughta ban NASA stuff too, since they're connected with the Nazi party.

Rommel was never a Nazi. He served solely out of loyalty to his homeland, not to its government. It's like some of us who are anti-war. We support the soldiers and the nation, but not the leadership of the nation.

The fact remains, however, that funding Israel has only made the United States an even bigger target. There are plenty of other nations which are even more liberal than we are, but they are not being targetted by al Qaeda. The United States is the big objective because of other reasons, like Israel. Not just Israel, mind you, but it doesn't exactly win us favor in their eyes.

Quite frankly, I don't think it would make any difference either way. If the 9/11 hijackers had been Palestinians who had actually suffered on account of American aid to Israel, I would agree with you, but they weren't; they were Saudi and Egyptian brats who had never been done and real effective harm by the United States.

It is true that there are other nations more liberal than we are, but none of them are quite the symbol of the West that America is.

Nathan F wrote:Yep, Rommel was in on the plot to kill Hitler. In fact, that is how Rommel was killed. Some SS officers appeared on his doorstep one night, and, they themselves respecting Rommel, gave him the choice of being arrested or committing suicide, if I recall correctly.

But wasn't he buried with full military honors? I find it hard to believe that they'd allow that if the guy was in on a plot to kill the Führer.

Durran Kor wrote:Quite frankly, I don't think it would make any difference either way. If the 9/11 hijackers had been Palestinians who had actually suffered on account of American aid to Israel, I would agree with you, but they weren't; they were Saudi and Egyptian brats who had never been done and real effective harm by the United States.

That's a good point, but there were plenty of people who didn't suffer objective, physical harm as a result of the World Trade Center attacks, too. The Arabs see our funding of Israel as an affront to Muslims everywhere, not just in Palestine, just like Americans saw the World Trade Center attacks as an attack on all of America, not just New York City.

It is true that there are other nations more liberal than we are, but none of them are quite the symbol of the West that America is.

Also very true. There are lots of factors, both in our foreign and domestic policies which go into the Middle East's hatred of us.

Durandal wrote:

Nathan F wrote:Yep, Rommel was in on the plot to kill Hitler. In fact, that is how Rommel was killed. Some SS officers appeared on his doorstep one night, and, they themselves respecting Rommel, gave him the choice of being arrested or committing suicide, if I recall correctly.

But wasn't he buried with full military honors? I find it hard to believe that they'd allow that if the guy was in on a plot to kill the Führer.

Sorry, I was mistaken, Shep corrected me though. Rommel was in on the plot to overthrow Hitler with a coup and to make peace with the Allies. Two other Generals approached him and said that he could take the cyanide pills and be buried with military honors, or be tried and executed as a traitor.

Rommel was part of the plot to overthrow Hitler, and try him in a German court for his atrocities. He saw that the war was hopeless and was being run by a madman.

Durandal wrote: But wasn't he buried with full military honors? I find it hard to believe that they'd allow that if the guy was in on a plot to kill the Führer.

Hitler himself gave Rommel that choice, and ordered a National
Day of Mourning to be held in honor of Rommel.

Stormbringer wrote:Well, another article on the lies of Michael Moore. Nothing new there.

And if I hear one more dolt say he "asks questions noone asks", I think I'm going to shoot off my foot...

Michael Moore is a loon and a complete liar. A lot of his film "Bowling for Columbine" is footage that's been cut, repieced, and edited. Moore blatantly twisted the truth to convey his message. There was a thread on this board I think that featured the article that pointed this out.

Illuminatus Primus wrote:Who cares.

Let Moore cream his pants; why the fuck should I care what miscreant like him thinks?

The problem with Moore is that people actually believe him. He ought to be found guilty of any number of crimes for violating the reporters' code of conduct, defamation of numerous characters, and crimes of disinformation.

Spanky The Dolphin wrote:That'll be never.

Stop being a punk, you little punk.

Why don't you go into the art forum and roll your eyes some more?

Let's see... had an argument with Hamel in the first thread he started. Check.

Glad to see that nothing has changed.

Hamel's little BBQ has gone to the appropriate place.

Stormbringer wrote:Hamel's little BBQ has gone to the appropriate place.

Thank you.

Hooray!!

Yay, now, back from the Hameru cookout and to the topic at hand.

Durandal wrote:That's a good point, but there were plenty of people who didn't suffer objective, physical harm as a result of the World Trade Center attacks, too. The Arabs see our funding of Israel as an affront to Muslims everywhere, not just in Palestine, just like Americans saw the World Trade Center attacks as an attack on all of America, not just New York City.

Forgot to reply to this.

Again, I ask the question, why Arabs? We incinerated hundreds of thousands of civilians and destroyed billions of dollars worth of property in Japan, we killed thousands of civilians and possibly millions of soldiers in Vietnam, and have killed civilians in great quantities at various places around the globe. Whether these civilian deaths were justified is not for this discussion. Comparatively, we have not killed very many Arab civilians. Why no Vietnamese terrorists? Or Japanese terrorists? Or German Neo-Nazi terrorists? Or Serbians pissed off about the Kosovo intervention?

We have done things that have negatively affected all these countries, yet only the Arabs attack us. Furthermore, it isn't even the Arabs who are directly harmed by us that retaliate; Iraqi terrorists are not nearly as common as are Saudi and Egyptian terrorists, and Palestinian terrorists don't often attack us, only Israel, if I'm not mistaken. It is not unreasonable to bring American foreign policy into the equation as a cause of Arab terrorism, but that must be measured against the fact that we have adopted far more brutal foreign policy elsewhere in the world without comparable retaliation.

What it ultimately comes down to in the Arabs/Islamo-fundies hate us because we're not as messed up as them. They hate us for being the haves while they, thanks to their fucked up religion, are have nots. Anything else is just BS justifications.

Stormbringer wrote:What it ultimately comes down to in the Arabs/Islamo-fundies hate us because we're not as messed up as them. They hate us for being the haves while they, thanks to their fucked up religion, are have nots. Anything else is just BS justifications.

Exactly. Their leaders have twisted their religion around so much, and made their people believe it, that they have been able to rule their countries under an iron fist, and threatened any dissidents with the wrath of Allah. In the process, a good scapegoat for any problems is the Great Satan of the west.

It is not unreasonable to bring American foreign policy into the equation as a cause of Arab terrorism, but that must be measured against the fact that we have adopted far more brutal foreign policy elsewhere in the world without comparable retaliation.

I don't think it's the brutality so much as the fact that Jerusalem is holy to Islam as well as Judaism and Christianity.
The Arab muslims see the Israeli occupation as a threat to their holy sites in Jerusalem, and as well they should because some of the more extreme members of the Likud coalition would like nothing better than to bulldoze the Dome on the Rock.

Israel's forced removal of Palestinans from their homes isn't helping, either.

As I tell people, if my family had been killed by Israelis using US supplied and financed weaponry and my house had been blown up by US supplied bombs dropped by a US supplied helicopter gunship or fighter, I might want to kill a few Americans myself.

Every heavy handed Israeli response just creates more recruits for the various Palestinian terrorist groups.

Israel isn't the entire reason (the paranoia of the Wahabbists are another), but it's a large part of it.

Master of Ossus wrote:

Illuminatus Primus wrote:Who cares.

Let Moore cream his pants; why the fuck should I care what miscreant like him thinks?

The problem with Moore is that people actually believe him. He ought to be found guilty of any number of crimes for violating the reporters' code of conduct, defamation of numerous characters, and crimes of disinformation.

And he also has the ear of television news shows, namely 60 Minutes. A normally respectable news show. They have done inteviews with him and given him an even more widespread way of telling his lies, and the reporters give him an aire of credibility while they are at it.

Illuminatus Primus wrote:
Who cares.

Let Moore cream his pants; why the fuck should I care what miscreant like him thinks?


The problem with Moore is that people actually believe him. He ought to be found guilty of any number of crimes for violating the reporters' code of conduct, defamation of numerous characters, and crimes of disinformation.

He's no journalist.
Moore is the Rush Limbaugh of the left.
Both specialize in innuendo, sarcasm, misleading presentation of facts, and plain disregard for the truth in the quest to make their 'points'.

Hell, Bill O'Reilly is more credible than Michael Moore.