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I think the most import aspect of the Dark Fleet is that all the ships were highly automated and required relatively minimal staff and trained crews.

Illuminatus Primus wrote:

Ender wrote:

Illuminatus Primus wrote: Does he consult his other Admirals on their offensives?

We see him give orders to other seperate tasks forces several times, remember? He was conducting simultaneous strikes with groups of 2 or 3 SDs, but IIRC the old EGC said his personal task force was only 5 ISDs strong, plus support ships.

Does he confer in strategic planning with other Admirals? No he does not. The front had to have multiple Admirals in campiagns equal at least to Thrawn's--yet we don't see them.

Not what you asked; quit trying to change the question to look like no one can answer you. You asked if we ever see him in contact with other Admirals leading other parts of the campaign. We do. You did not assk about joint consultation and planning until your assertion tha we do not see that was shown wrong.

Ender wrote:

Illuminatus Primus wrote:What about his government?

He obviously had contact with the Intellegence community, and he had some kind of contact with the others to get them to give him, and keep giving him supplies.

In other words, no.

So he contacted a former subordinate of his and got money. So his intelligence agents reported to him. Did he bring his government with him or consult them? No.[/quote]Do military dictators consult a civillian government to decide what to do, or do they just do what they want/need and the civillians get dragged along behind? The answer is the latter. Thrawn is a military dictator, and behaves in as they would.

I think they're most important aspect was technological (mass-utilization of unique slave-rigging) and psychological. The Dark Force had a powerful affect on the psyche of the Imperial and New Republic soldier.

Much of Thrawn's clones, ploys, tactical brilliant manuvers, and tricks served the psychological warfare goal of incredibly demoralizing and making the enemy mis-assess his threat.

Illuminatus Primus wrote:
Does he consult his other Admirals on their offensives?

We see him give orders to other seperate tasks forces several times, remember? He was conducting simultaneous strikes with groups of 2 or 3 SDs, but IIRC the old EGC said his personal task force was only 5 ISDs strong, plus support ships.[/quote]

Does he confer in strategic planning with other Admirals? No he does not. The front had to have multiple Admirals in campiagns equal at least to Thrawn's--yet we don't see them.[/quote]
except the Empire of his era has already shrank to an atonishing small leve and all the high-ranking personnel of power has already became warlords.Of his rank stature,there are non comparable.What equivalent can there be?

Admirals?Are there even any more admirals after 5 years of disastrous civil war?

Ender wrote:

Illuminatus Primus wrote:What about his government?

He obviously had contact with the Intellegence community, and he had some kind of contact with the others to get them to give him, and keep giving him supplies.

In other words, no.

So he contacted a former subordinate of his and got money. So his intelligence agents reported to him. Did he bring his government with him or consult them? No.

For operational secrecy,Thrawn didn't tell everyone that the tree was a listening device.Yet!The intelligence community knew that such a intelligence source existed,it reported directly to Thrawn,the nature of the intelligence and even the location of the source.

That's indicates a level of access and consultation there.

Ender wrote:Not what you asked; quit trying to change the question to look like no one can answer you. You asked if we ever see him in contact with other Admirals leading other parts of the campaign. We do. You did not assk about joint consultation and planning until your assertion tha we do not see that was shown wrong.

I said, and I quote "their offensives"--ie. other parts of the front. Independent campiagns from Thrawn's. Read, Ender.

Ender wrote:Do military dictators consult a civillian government to decide what to do, or do they just do what they want/need and the civillians get dragged along behind? The answer is the latter. Thrawn is a military dictator, and behaves in as they would.

Actually you're completely wrong.

States do not administer themselves. Napoleon was certainly a military dictator--he took his government with him on campiagn. The Galactic Empire is a massive entity requiring administation of military and civil policies. Dictators do dictate policy and budgetary decisions and production order, etc, etc. A government administered Stalin's state. Hell even Somalian warlords have a power structure allowing them to control their little kingdom.

Thrawn's government is never seen, refered to, or consulted by him.

PainRack wrote:except the Empire of his era has already shrank to an atonishing small leve and all the high-ranking personnel of power has already became warlords.Of his rank stature,there are non comparable.What equivalent can there be?

Admirals?Are there even any more admirals after 5 years of disastrous civil war?

He has the power to promote more--quibbling over thier rank is irrelevent. Someone was commanding the rest of the Imperial Navy other than Thrawn's superiority fleet and his assisting task forces on his particular campiagn. Where were the other offensives and advances along a galactic front. Where are these fleets? These commanders?

PainRack wrote:For operational secrecy,Thrawn didn't tell everyone that the tree was a listening device.Yet!The intelligence community knew that such a intelligence source existed,it reported directly to Thrawn,the nature of the intelligence and even the location of the source.

That's indicates a level of access and consultation there.

Red herring. He must have a government--all dictators do. Where is it? Why doesn't he tell it what to do? Where's his staff? Is he running everything personally?

Illuminatus Primus wrote:

Ender wrote:Do military dictators consult a civillian government to decide what to do, or do they just do what they want/need and the civillians get dragged along behind? The answer is the latter. Thrawn is a military dictator, and behaves in as they would.

Actually you're completely wrong.

States do not administer themselves. Napoleon was certainly a military dictator--he took his government with him on campiagn. The Galactic Empire is a massive entity requiring administation of military and civil policies. Dictators do dictate policy and budgetary decisions and production order, etc, etc. A government administered Stalin's state. Hell even Somalian warlords have a power structure allowing them to control their little kingdom.

Thrawn's government is never seen, refered to, or consulted by him.

I never see General Tommy Franks consult the US government on TV, therefore there is no US government and Franks is a poor commander.

Do you really think that Thrawn could keep his fleet and army supplied without a government to administer things?

Darth Garden Gnome wrote:

Lonestar wrote:I thought the Clone Emperor didn't make his bid until after the Thrawn Crisis....

Yes, but before he made his move he contacted a significant number of Imperial Warlords and demanded their allegiance to the Empire. After that, they went to the Emperor's new capital Byss in the Deep Core. That happened sometime during Thrawn's campaign.

Well that helps explain things, if alot of forces that could have been aviable to Thrawn where instead clustering in the deep core awaiting the Emperor, that wold explain why Thrawn had so little ships available.

Illuminatus Primus wrote:
He has the power to promote more--quibbling over thier rank is irrelevent. Someone was commanding the rest of the Imperial Navy other than Thrawn's superiority fleet and his assisting task forces on his particular campiagn. Where were the other offensives and advances along a galactic front. Where are these fleets? These commanders?

PainRack wrote:For operational secrecy,Thrawn didn't tell everyone that the tree was a listening device.Yet!The intelligence community knew that such a intelligence source existed,it reported directly to Thrawn,the nature of the intelligence and even the location of the source.

That's indicates a level of access and consultation there.

Red herring. He must have a government--all dictators do. Where is it? Why doesn't he tell it what to do? Where's his staff? Is he running everything personally?

He has the power to promote more,but does the Imperial Forces have the manpower available?

Without those in comparable rank,it falls to a centralised command system in which all commands and orders are issued from one man.In this case,Grand Admiral Thrawn.Is this a flawed philosophy?No,its not.In this scenario,no consultation is needed because Thrawn is the one to set targets,goals,scenarios and stargeties.The goal of the respective task force commander will be to execute them.

And I repeat,how do you know he doesn't tell it what to do?Staff?He's in a highly computerised universe.How do you know that with the level of computerisation available,that manpower requirements for staffs have been reduced to extremely small levels?

After all,the US is attempting to do it right now.With their new computer network,they expect their soldiers to be supported from the foxhole to the CP.Such a system eliminates and streamlines redundancies.

The Army Staff as listed in the ISB had occasionally been criticized as too few, and there are support droids listed explicitly.

Nevertheless, no obvious staff seems very wierd. Droids are quite intelligent, but humans don't trust them, less so in the Imperial Navy, which supposedly thinks droids are even lower than nonhumans.

I've once said it. It is not great when Captain Harbid of the Death's Hand had to handle the troop deployments by himself (or was Harbid doing something else, and Pellaeon was doing the deployment ... I'll have to check TLC.) In any case, naval captains handling army affairs just makes me feel wierd.

If people from the Army's Company Level on feel the need of a staff (4 primaries plus some support people,) I doubt GRAND ADMIRAL THRAWN, with countless companies under him, would not find some kind of staff useful.

Crazy Ivan wrote:I never see General Tommy Franks consult the US government on TV, therefore there is no US government and Franks is a poor commander.

Bullshit comparison.

The Thrawn Trilogy is from the third-person omniscient perspective. Furthermore it goes into the specific and secret activities of Thrawn. I do not think the book perspective is in anyway comparitable to your perspective of the invasion of Iraq.

Additionally, General Franks is not the commander-in-chief or the military dictator of the U.S.

Crazy Ivan wrote:Do you really think that Thrawn could keep his fleet and army supplied without a government to administer things?

That's what I'd like to know. But according to what the Thrawn Trilogy says, Thrawn apparently doesn't tell his government what to do very often.

In fact, purely, Thrawn seems little more than a theater commander of a single thrust along a broad front. The question of where his opposite numbers in the Imperial coreward push are is unanswered by the Thrawn Trilogy, as is the status of the Galactic Imperial government.

His Divine Shadow wrote:Well that helps explain things, if alot of forces that could have been aviable to Thrawn where instead clustering in the deep core awaiting the Emperor, that wold explain why Thrawn had so little ships available.

That's precisely what the Dark Empire Sourcebook says.

PainRack wrote:He has the power to promote more,but does the Imperial Forces have the manpower available?

This is the stupidest thing I've ever heard. The Empire has thousands of ISDs still, and probably thus thousands of squadron commanders with at least the rank of commadore. You claiming there's no one left in the Imperial Navy to promote to Fleet Admiral?

That's a shitty excuse for Thrawn's inability to consult other commanders and inability to choose a second-in-command or successor other than keep a Line Captain as his side-kick.

Without those in comparable rank,it falls to a centralised command system in which all commands and orders are issued from one man.

Furthermore, the opening scene of the Thrawn Trilogy shows they have available manpower--its just inferior the Endor-era standards.

PainRack wrote:In this case,Grand Admiral Thrawn. Is this a flawed philosophy? No,its not. In this scenario, no consultation is needed because Thrawn is the one to set targets, goals, scenarios and stargeties.The goal of the respective task force commander will be to execute them.

What part of "no other parts of the campiagn are observed or referenced nor are their commanders" difficult to understand? Thrawn cannot run a war in the GFFA with a single superiority fleet and a couple support squadrons.

Given the observed lack of communication, Thrawn is either a moron who thinks he can conquer the galaxy with his tactical tricks and single fleet at worst or at best, seems to let his other commanders run their assaults along the front as they see fit--which is strategically questionable.

You evidently do not understand that a galactic-scale state needs administration, and if Thrawn isn't making those decisions who is? He IS the military dictator, y'know. One would think he'd decide issues like military spending or government dictates or the like. He does not communicate with his government.[/quote]

PainRack wrote:And I repeat,how do you know he doesn't tell it what to do?Staff?He's in a highly computerised universe.How do you know that with the level of computerisation available,that manpower requirements for staffs have been reduced to extremely small levels?

He is never observed communicating to his government or other fleet commanders that are not part of his assaults, nor is he observed having a staff.

A Star Destroyer has a crew of tens of thousands. A Star Destroyer has a crew pit and many subordinate officers. Canon commanders had staff.

We should end the discussion now if you think a Line Captain and Grand Admiral can run a war and a nation single-handedly. The staff requirements for a single Destroyer must be tremendous.

PainRack wrote:After all,the US is attempting to do it right now.With their new computer network,they expect their soldiers to be supported from the foxhole to the CP.Such a system eliminates and streamlines redundancies.

You do realize the majority of the troops participating in the invasion were in logistics and suppport staff right? See all those enlistees working in Qatar for Franks?

Who needs a support staff, government, and other commanders according PainRack?

The apologetics for Zahn's idiocy is getting tiresome. Zahn's scale errors and outright military stupidities are quite glaring in TTT.

The most likely situation is he (a commander-in-chief, mind you) made a Line Captain his direct subordinate. Pelleaon had to run the entire fleet as well as his Destroyer. That in itself is incredibly stupid.

His apparently only rarely issued edicts to his government. Leaving it mostly to run itself. Not very bright when the Dark Empire Sourceboook says much of the Imperial power structure wanted Thrawn dead. Politically stupid.

Apparently he left the rest of the front apart from his own operations mostly at the will of the local commanders. Strategically stupid.

Thrawn was a tactical genius, but he became fixated on tiny details rather than the big picture and apparently thought he could simply win the war on the back of his own tactical prowess and assaults. Grand Admiral Zaarin, despite inferior logistical and intelligence resources, consistently forced Thrawn to engage Zaarin on his own terms, when and where he wanted even if Thrawn consistently defeated him in the game of tactics. Thrawn's strategic failings are nothing new.

Illuminatus Primus wrote:

Crazy Ivan wrote:I never see General Tommy Franks consult the US government on TV, therefore there is no US government and Franks is a poor commander.

Bullshit comparison.

The Thrawn Trilogy is from the third-person omniscient perspective. Furthermore it goes into the specific and secret activities of Thrawn. I do not think the book perspective is in anyway comparitable to your perspective of the invasion of Iraq.

Say with me: Suspension of disbelief. If we are going to analyze Star Wars we have to think of the EU as 'historical records'. Arguing about perspective, that's bullshit. The rest is your opinion, nothing more.

Illuminatus Primus wrote:

Crazy Ivan wrote:Do you really think that Thrawn could keep his fleet and army supplied without a government to administer things?

That's what I'd like to know. But according to what the Thrawn Trilogy says, Thrawn apparently doesn't tell his government what to do very often.

And you find that strange? What would a military man want from his government? Only supplies, recruits and loyalty come to mind. As long as they keep supplying his fleet, sending 'volunteers' and stay loyal, why bother with things the bureaucrats can handle?

Illuminatus Primus wrote:In fact, purely, Thrawn seems little more than a theater commander of a single thrust along a broad front. The question of where his opposite numbers in the Imperial coreward push are is unanswered by the Thrawn Trilogy, as is the status of the Galactic Imperial government.

So they don't have something as basic as a government. What's next? 40 W turbolasers? And what is this crap about theater commander? We clearly get the impression that Thrawn's personal task force is spearheading the campaign, only fighting the most important battles. That he has other high-ranking commanders that fight other battles is given.

Illuminatus Primus wrote:Furthermore, the opening scene of the Thrawn Trilogy shows they have available manpower--its just inferior the Endor-era standards.

Yes, it is so available that they had to man their flagship with something very close to green recruits.

Illuminatus Primus wrote:Given the observed lack of communication, Thrawn is either a moron who thinks he can conquer the galaxy with his tactical tricks and single fleet at worst or at best, seems to let his other commanders run their assaults along the front as they see fit--which is strategically questionable.

Here you ignore that the 'moron' was winning the war with his 'tactical tricks'. The only thing that stopped him was a combination of the infamous rebel luck and his assassination, not superior tactics from an enemy.

Illuminatus Primus wrote:You evidently do not understand that a galactic-scale state needs administration, and if Thrawn isn't making those decisions who is?

Oh, I don't know ... civilian bureaucrats?

Illuminatus Primus wrote:He IS the military dictator, y'know. One would think he'd decide issues like military spending or government dictates or the like. He does not communicate with his government.

So you think he would have been a lesser moron if he interrupted his war campagn to go through the Empire's budget?

Illuminatus Primus wrote:The most likely situation is he (a commander-in-chief, mind you) made a Line Captain his direct subordinate. Pelleaon had to run the entire fleet as well as his Destroyer. That in itself is incredibly stupid.

Prove that Pelleaon did anything else than relay Thrawn's orders.

Illuminatus Primus wrote:His apparently only rarely issued edicts to his government. Leaving it mostly to run itself.

Since he was in the middle of a war campaign that would make sense.

Illuminatus Primus wrote:Not very bright when the Dark Empire Sourceboook says much of the Imperial power structure wanted Thrawn dead. Politically stupid.

You ignore that if Thrawn had conquered the New Republic and rebuilt the Empire, his men would have hailed him as a hero. Difficult to stage a coup if the entire lower half of the military ladder wanted Thrawn as Emperor.

Illuminatus Primus wrote:Thrawn was a tactical genius, but he became fixated on tiny details rather than the big picture and apparently thought he could simply win the war on the back of his own tactical prowess and assaults.

Again, he was winning the war 'on the back of his own tactical prowess and assaults.'

Illuminatus Primus wrote:Grand Admiral Zaarin, despite inferior logistical and intelligence resources, consistently forced Thrawn to engage Zaarin on his own terms, when and where he wanted even if Thrawn consistently defeated him in the game of tactics.

Who of them won?

Illuminatus Primus wrote:Thrawn's strategic failings are nothing new.

Strategic failings that shook the New Republic in its foundations and nearly caused their downfall.

Crazy Ivan wrote:Say with me: Suspension of disbelief. If we are going to analyze Star Wars we have to think of the EU as 'historical records'. Arguing about perspective, that's bullshit. The rest is your opinion, nothing more.

We can suspend disbelief and still criticize something as stupid.

So they don't have something as basic as a government. What's next? 40 W turbolasers? And what is this crap about theater commander? We clearly get the impression that Thrawn's personal task force is spearheading the campaign, only fighting the most important battles. That he has other high-ranking commanders that fight other battles is given.

Well, I'm sure they have a government. Just that Thrawn truly does not ever have to report to anyone, or confer with anyone that we can see.

Yes, it is so available that they had to man their flagship with something very close to green recruits.

All we need are a few staff members. Even the LAST of the Japanese fleets, as I'm sure I've said in another thread where I questioned why Thrawn had no apparent staff, had a staff.

Here you ignore that the 'moron' was winning the war with his 'tactical tricks'. The only thing that stopped him was a combination of the infamous rebel luck and his assassination, not superior tactics from an enemy.

He might be winning, but it might also just mean the New Republic is WORSE... If he is winning on a tactical level and not communicating with his other commanders on a strategic level and still WINNING, he should really thank his other, unmentioned subordinates. Probably entire novels just as fun as any in the SW universe could have been written about that "side battle."

Prove that Pelleaon did anything else than relay Thrawn's orders.

This one's easy. Let's go with the Chapter 20 text of TLC. Thrawn ordered, on P. 323, after Xa Fel surrendered:
"Inform Captain Harbid [CO: Death's Head] that he will handle the landings and troop deployments. You, Captain [Pellaeon], will reconfigure the fleet into defensive formation until planetary defenses have been secured."

This is NO direct relay. Pellaeon, no doubt with his own CO duties at hand, have to act as Thrawn's chief of staff or Naval Operations Director and put the fleet into a defensive formation of his choosing (Thrawn gave no specifics for the defensive formation.) But at least he's in his element, more or less. Poor Captain Harbid, Navy officer and CO of 37000 people, has to play Army Chief of Staff and handle what is supposed to be an Army affair - ground troop deployments and landings. What happened to Thrawn's STAFF?

Who of them won?

Red herring. I think the point here is about Thrawn's weaknesses. Thrawn could win every tactical battle and we can still say his strategic vision is somewhat overrated at times.

Let's say I'm a super brawler (actually, I'm the antithesis of one.) I somehow run into 50 ambushes every day, and I keep winding up back out of the ambushes while kicking the enemy's ass. But if someone criticizes me for not having foresight and early warning (which might reduce the # of ambushes) a proper reply would not be, "So, I won anyway!"

Illuminatus Primus wrote:Bullshit comparison.

The Thrawn Trilogy is from the third-person omniscient perspective. Furthermore it goes into the specific and secret activities of Thrawn.

You know that I disagree with you on this, however having a decided lack of time to argue the point, I let it stand on its merits. Usually you always justify correctly.

However exactly when is the Thrawn trilogy from the 'third-person omniscient perspective' when dealing with Thrawn? I seem to remember that when ever Thrawn was in the scence we always got our point of veiw from Palleon. We never knew at any point what Thrawn was thinking unless he was telling Palleon what he was thinking.

Unlike every single other character in the novels; Luke, Leia, Han, Lando, Mara, Karrde, Palleon. Who had interior dialogue, and thoughts.

Thrawn was always written from Palleon's perspective.

So Thrawn isn't written from any 'omniscient perspective', but from when Palleon was there, and what he was interpreting Thrawn doing. Our limit of knowledge on Thrawn is limited to Palleon.

Not sure what this actually means, but there you have it.

Crazy Ivan wrote:

Illuminatus Primus wrote:

Crazy Ivan wrote:I never see General Tommy Franks consult the US government on TV, therefore there is no US government and Franks is a poor commander.

Bullshit comparison.

The Thrawn Trilogy is from the third-person omniscient perspective. Furthermore it goes into the specific and secret activities of Thrawn. I do not think the book perspective is in anyway comparitable to your perspective of the invasion of Iraq.

Say with me: Suspension of disbelief. If we are going to analyze Star Wars we have to think of the EU as 'historical records'. Arguing about perspective, that's bullshit. The rest is your opinion, nothing more.

Bullshit from an apologist.

Your comparison to Tommy Franks and Operation Iraqi Freedom was total bullshit.

We do not see Thrawn working with other commanders across the front nor communicate with any government. Regardless of how much you don't like it--that is what we see and you must use suspension of disbelief.

Crazy Ivan wrote:

Illuminatus Primus wrote:

Crazy Ivan wrote:Do you really think that Thrawn could keep his fleet and army supplied without a government to administer things?

That's what I'd like to know. But according to what the Thrawn Trilogy says, Thrawn apparently doesn't tell his government what to do very often.

And you find that strange? What would a military man want from his government? Only supplies, recruits and loyalty come to mind. As long as they keep supplying his fleet, sending 'volunteers' and stay loyal, why bother with things the bureaucrats can handle?

Yes, because governments run themselves. You're an idiot. Napoleon had to run France even when he was kicking Russian, Prussian, and Austrian ass all over the place. Someone has to administer the Empire. Someone has to make budgetary decisions--someone must ensure that the political scheme keeps him on top. Afterall, Palpatine's agents did percipitate his fall.

Thrawn was a poor stateman, live with it. Left no successor and no real second-in-command. And did not control his own Empire. Suspension of disbelief--that's what we see. Enough apologetics for a basic observation.

Crazy Ivan wrote:

Illuminatus Primus wrote:In fact, purely, Thrawn seems little more than a theater commander of a single thrust along a broad front. The question of where his opposite numbers in the Imperial coreward push are is unanswered by the Thrawn Trilogy, as is the status of the Galactic Imperial government.

So they don't have something as basic as a government. What's next? 40 W turbolasers? And what is this crap about theater commander? We clearly get the impression that Thrawn's personal task force is spearheading the campaign, only fighting the most important battles. That he has other high-ranking commanders that fight other battles is given.

Military Dictators don't run the country they are dictator over.

I'm sure Eisenhower never spoke to Patton or Monty.

Of course they have a government--point is, Thrawn didn't do a good job of running it. We never see him communicate with it, he didn't bring it with him, and he was a poor enough stateman to allow elements within it to want to kill him--and some of them helped that happen.

Crazy Ivan wrote:

Illuminatus Primus wrote:Furthermore, the opening scene of the Thrawn Trilogy shows they have available manpower--its just inferior the Endor-era standards.

Yes, it is so available that they had to man their flagship with something very close to green recruits.

Cut this moronic horseshit.

Every battle squadron has at least a ISD and thus a commadore--and there must've been at least hundreds left. The supreme commander could've promoted some of them--even if he didn't--there had to be other commanders along the front.

Apologists for Zahn's stupidity don't think any Imperial Admirals even exist, or somehow the fucking Supreme Commander is running the war all by his lonesome with no other fleets and cannot promote anyone else.

Crazy Ivan wrote:

Illuminatus Primus wrote:Given the observed lack of communication, Thrawn is either a moron who thinks he can conquer the galaxy with his tactical tricks and single fleet at worst or at best, seems to let his other commanders run their assaults along the front as they see fit--which is strategically questionable.

Here you ignore that the 'moron' was winning the war with his 'tactical tricks'. The only thing that stopped him was a combination of the infamous rebel luck and his assassination, not superior tactics from an enemy.

The Rebels are idiots too, why should I be suprised?

What part of "Thrawn is never observed to confer with other commanders in the overall strategy, nor tend to the political administation of his empire" is difficult to understand. I said "at worst" he's a moron. I'm giving him the benefit of a doubt.

Furthermore, you obviously cannot read The Last Command. Thrawn's battle plan was so fragile a group of smugglers threw it out of balance and a single X-Wing squadron and a pair of frigates allowed a full New Republic incursion through the Imperial lines. He was tactically outsmarted. It is not "luck" that Thrawn didn't apply the n squared law by bringing in more ships to reinforce his battle station perimeter--he had just captured the Katana fleet, afterall. Thrawn was losing when he got assassinated.

Crazy Ivan wrote:

Illuminatus Primus wrote:You evidently do not understand that a galactic-scale state needs administration, and if Thrawn isn't making those decisions who is?

Oh, I don't know ... civilian bureaucrats?

What part of "half of his government wanted to kill him and generally in a dysfunctional administration it helps if you dictate, being the dictator."

There's more to a government than DMV zombies.

Crazy Ivan wrote:

Illuminatus Primus wrote:He IS the military dictator, y'know. One would think he'd decide issues like military spending or government dictates or the like. He does not communicate with his government.

So you think he would have been a lesser moron if he interrupted his war campagn to go through the Empire's budget?

Wrong.

Napoleon kicked ass bringing his government with him. France didn't just shut down with the Emperor, y'know. Governments need running. Ze dictator must dictate. Especially if half the government wants him dead.

Crazy Ivan wrote:

Illuminatus Primus wrote:The most likely situation is he (a commander-in-chief, mind you) made a Line Captain his direct subordinate. Pelleaon had to run the entire fleet as well as his Destroyer. That in itself is incredibly stupid.

Prove that Pelleaon did anything else than relay Thrawn's orders.

Thrawn has no observed staff. Pelleaon was affectively the second-in-command of the fleet. Captains command ships. Grand Admirals command fleets. Pelleaon ran the Chimaera. And I don't have to prove he did anything else.

Crazy Ivan wrote:

Illuminatus Primus wrote:His apparently only rarely issued edicts to his government. Leaving it mostly to run itself.

Since he was in the middle of a war campaign that would make sense.

Palpatine nearly toppled the New Republic, and maintained control and administration even while engineering it's destruction--even when he was temporarily dead and while simultaneously trying to collect Skywalker.

Crazy Ivan wrote:

Illuminatus Primus wrote:Not very bright when the Dark Empire Sourceboook says much of the Imperial power structure wanted Thrawn dead. Politically stupid.

You ignore that if Thrawn had conquered the New Republic and rebuilt the Empire, his men would have hailed him as a hero. Difficult to stage a coup if the entire lower half of the military ladder wanted Thrawn as Emperor.

Six Imperial warlords and the remnants of the pre-Thrawn Imperial government rather easily siezed Coruscant less than six months after Thrawn failed. Much of the Outer Rim in the form of the Pentastar Alignment CHOSE not to side with Thrawn. And many commanders and politicians wanted to eliminate Thrawn according to the Dark Empire Sourcebook. Whitewash whatever you want--that's what was happening and fact is--Thrawn DID not conquer Coruscant and you can't prove he would have. He did not conquer Coruscant and was losing the Battle of Bilbringi when he was eliminated. When he was unable to protect an Imperial shipyard from assault because he did not account for the manuvers of an X-Wing squadron and two assault frigates, its a leap in logic to assume he would've effortlessly taken Coruscant since he was losing Bilbringi. TTT says Thrawn is not infalliable. Get it?

Crazy Ivan wrote:

Illuminatus Primus wrote:Thrawn was a tactical genius, but he became fixated on tiny details rather than the big picture and apparently thought he could simply win the war on the back of his own tactical prowess and assaults.

Again, he was winning the war 'on the back of his own tactical prowess and assaults.'

Because a single superiority fleet wins wars in a galaxy of tens of thousands of ISD-scale warships. There were other commmanders fighting y'know. And he was losing at Bilbringi, remember?

Crazy Ivan wrote:

Illuminatus Primus wrote:Grand Admiral Zaarin, despite inferior logistical and intelligence resources, consistently forced Thrawn to engage Zaarin on his own terms, when and where he wanted even if Thrawn consistently defeated him in the game of tactics.

Who of them won?

Do you understand what the difference between tactics and strategy is? Is Monty or Rommel the better General? Monty won because of better logistical support. Likewise with Thrawn: Zaarin was always able to get away without total loss and survive, which was his goal, and still manage to choose when and where Thrawn would have to fight him. Zaarin is arguably an equal commander to Thrawn.

Crazy Ivan wrote:

Illuminatus Primus wrote:Thrawn's strategic failings are nothing new.

Strategic failings that shook the New Republic in its foundations and nearly caused their downfall.

Tactics != strategy

The New Republic were friggin' idiots. Even with Palpatine and the whole Starfleet's support, a renegade admiral with only his own fleet gave Thrawn a run for his money while still always choosing the battles on his terms. Zaarin was a superior strategist than Thrawn. Which is the better tactician is debateable.

Crown wrote:*snip*

Well, the third person perspective is probably used with free indirect discourse--regarding Thrawn is becomes limited in its knowledge of his thoughts and feelings.

This does not change the fact that his comparison to watching TV and Tommy Franks was fucking stupid.

And it also doesn't change that not knowing Thrawn's thoughts is irrelevent: he still never communicates with seemingly anything outside his little fleet.

Thrawn was losing when Rukh killed him?!?!?!?!? If u read isard's revenge Wedge himself attmits that Rogue Squad and a couple of Assualt frigates didn't change the flow of the battle. Where the hell is any proof that Thrawn was losing.?

Wedge was scared shitless of Thrawn.

Thrawn himself began to worry and was no longer looking well "We haven't lost yet" he told Pelleaon.

Pelleaon remarked that Thrawn might have pulled a victory.

Looks like they were losing to me.

What kind of proof will you want for us to show that Thrawn did do the things you want?

We shown that consultation with his intelligence community exists.

We know that Thrawn was in communication with the various ground forces in combat throughout the SWU,as he was able to know the progress,as well as order forces like General Covell around.

We know that Thrawn kept in contact with other task forces objectives.The only gripe you're having is that Thrawn apparently didn't keep in contact with a multi-prong assault on the New Republic.

Here's my reply.Can you show us that there were other assaults not linked to Thrawn?Thrawn forces were limited.Each major drive the New Republic responds to or the Empire launches,we note either Thrawn presence or knowledge of.So,where are the alternative thrusts that Thrawn apparently didn't oversee?

As for the need for a staff,do you realise that only the US army and armies modeled after the American style possess support troops of that size?Yes,the US dedicates 90% of her personnel to support arms.However,armies like the NVA had only 10% involved in support and logistics.That includes trucks.

Staff?General Rommel went to battle with less than 20 staff.Guderian,in his role as Panzer inspector general had less than 10.As chief of the German staff,less than 50.And does the general public know anything about the remainding staff?Absolutely nothing.In other words,is a visible staff required?No.

As for manpower issues,are there any evidence that Thrawn had more than a few hundred ISDs under his command?

I submit that Zahn scale issues can be more accurately rationalised as the result of the fragmented remains of the Empire and the warlordism.

After all,this was what Chiang was forced to do in his 5 expeditions against the communists.The warlordism of China along with the fragmentation meant that the KMT weak lines of communications forced Chiang to dedicate all control of the anti-communist expedition to a single general and he remained out of touch with the progress of those expeditions,despite the fact that the KMT was dedicating its best troops to such an operation

Illuminatus Primus wrote:Bullshit from an apologist.

Your comparison to Tommy Franks and Operation Iraqi Freedom was total bullshit.

We do not see Thrawn working with other commanders across the front nor communicate with any government. Regardless of how much you don't like it--that is what we see and you must use suspension of disbelief.

Notice how I suddenly become an apologist because I don't agree with him.

I guess Thrawn never briefed all those officers prior to conquering Ukio, IIRC (Not sure if it was Ukio.). But I guess they don't qualify for some reason.

Regardless of how much you don't like it you can't maintain a war effort without the government staying loyal and supplying you with everything you need, without delay. Deal with it.

Illuminatus Primus wrote:

Crazy Ivan wrote:

Illuminatus Primus wrote: That's what I'd like to know. But according to what the Thrawn Trilogy says, Thrawn apparently doesn't tell his government what to do very often.

And you find that strange? What would a military man want from his government? Only supplies, recruits and loyalty come to mind. As long as they keep supplying his fleet, sending 'volunteers' and stay loyal, why bother with things the bureaucrats can handle?

Yes, because governments run themselves. You're an idiot. Napoleon had to run France even when he was kicking Russian, Prussian, and Austrian ass all over the place. Someone has to administer the Empire. Someone has to make budgetary decisions--someone must ensure that the political scheme keeps him on top. Afterall, Palpatine's agents did percipitate his fall.

Thrawn was a poor stateman, live with it. Left no successor and no real second-in-command. And did not control his own Empire. Suspension of disbelief--that's what we see. Enough apologetics for a basic observation.

Those are mine points. Someone would have to administer the Empire, or it would have collapsed while Thrawn was campaigning. Someone had to make budgetary decisions, or Thrawn couldn't have sustained a war effort. Someone must have ensured that the political schemes kept him on top, or he would have been disposed of. Since none of this happened, it is clear that he must have had a nice, cool government in place and kept a strong hand on it. But he would also have prioritized his war campaign - a defeat would have been disastrous.

Illuminatus Primus wrote:

Crazy Ivan wrote:

Illuminatus Primus wrote:In fact, purely, Thrawn seems little more than a theater commander of a single thrust along a broad front. The question of where his opposite numbers in the Imperial coreward push are is unanswered by the Thrawn Trilogy, as is the status of the Galactic Imperial government.

So they don't have something as basic as a government. What's next? 40 W turbolasers? And what is this crap about theater commander? We clearly get the impression that Thrawn's personal task force is spearheading the campaign, only fighting the most important battles. That he has other high-ranking commanders that fight other battles is given.

Of course they have a government--point is, Thrawn didn't do a good job of running it. We never see him communicate with it, he didn't bring it with him, and he was a poor enough stateman to allow elements within it to want to kill him--and some of them helped that happen.

We never get to hear Thrawn's thoughts. We never get to know what Thrawn is doing in his quarters when Pelleaon isn't there. In short, we know very little of what he does when he's not on the bridge, and even then we only get to know via Pellaeon's POW. And even with such little material you somehow draw the conclusion that Thrawn is a poor statesman. I repeat; all you have is assumptions.

And give me one single example of a dictatorship that didn't have elements that wanted to kill the man on top.

Illuminatus Primus wrote:

Crazy Ivan wrote:

Illuminatus Primus wrote:Furthermore, the opening scene of the Thrawn Trilogy shows they have available manpower--its just inferior the Endor-era standards.

Yes, it is so available that they had to man their flagship with something very close to green recruits.

Cut this moronic horseshit.

Every battle squadron has at least a ISD and thus a commadore--and there must've been at least hundreds left. The supreme commander could've promoted some of them--even if he didn't--there had to be other commanders along the front.

Apologists for Zahn's stupidity don't think any Imperial Admirals even exist, or somehow the fucking Supreme Commander is running the war all by his lonesome with no other fleets and cannot promote anyone else.

Thrawn's squadron was his personal task force which he of course ran personally. What good would a commodore do there if Thrawn ran it himself? With their depleted manpower he'd do much better leading another squadron somewhere else. And of course he had other admirals, commodores and whatnot under his command. I never said anything else; I was just pointing out that Thrawn's part of the Empire suffered form a lack of manpower.

Illuminatus Primus wrote:

Crazy Ivan wrote:

Illuminatus Primus wrote:Given the observed lack of communication, Thrawn is either a moron who thinks he can conquer the galaxy with his tactical tricks and single fleet at worst or at best, seems to let his other commanders run their assaults along the front as they see fit--which is strategically questionable.

Here you ignore that the 'moron' was winning the war with his 'tactical tricks'. The only thing that stopped him was a combination of the infamous rebel luck and his assassination, not superior tactics from an enemy.

The Rebels are idiots too, why should I be suprised?

What part of "Thrawn is never observed to confer with other commanders in the overall strategy, nor tend to the political administation of his empire" is difficult to understand. I said "at worst" he's a moron. I'm giving him the benefit of a doubt.

Furthermore, you obviously cannot read The Last Command. Thrawn's battle plan was so fragile a group of smugglers threw it out of balance and a single X-Wing squadron and a pair of frigates allowed a full New Republic incursion through the Imperial lines. He was tactically outsmarted. It is not "luck" that Thrawn didn't apply the n squared law by bringing in more ships to reinforce his battle station perimeter--he had just captured the Katana fleet, afterall. Thrawn was losing when he got assassinated.

Funny, I remember Thrawn saying something like: "We aren't beaten yet, not by a long shot." But of course he should have anticipated an attack from a place where there wasn't any New Republic ships. He also should have anticipated that the smugglers would turn against him due to that fool Ferrier.

Even Thrawn couldn't draw conclusion from information he didn't have. He was a genius, not a psychic.

And how the heck do you know that enough ships from the Katana fleet would arrive in time? Or do you just 'know' like you seem to do with most else that has to do with Thrawn?

Illuminatus Primus wrote:

Crazy Ivan wrote:

Illuminatus Primus wrote:You evidently do not understand that a galactic-scale state needs administration, and if Thrawn isn't making those decisions who is?

Oh, I don't know ... civilian bureaucrats?

What part of "half of his government wanted to kill him and generally in a dysfunctional administration it helps if you dictate, being the dictator."

There's more to a government than DMV zombies.

Please translate that first sentence into English. I don't understand what you're saying here.

Illuminatus Primus wrote:

Crazy Ivan wrote:

Illuminatus Primus wrote:The most likely situation is he (a commander-in-chief, mind you) made a Line Captain his direct subordinate. Pelleaon had to run the entire fleet as well as his Destroyer. That in itself is incredibly stupid.

Prove that Pelleaon did anything else than relay Thrawn's orders.

Thrawn has no observed staff. Pelleaon was affectively the second-in-command of the fleet. Captains command ships. Grand Admirals command fleets. Pelleaon ran the Chimaera. And I don't have to prove he did anything else.

Pelleaon never gave the fleet, or even Thrawn's personal task force, an order while in battle. Never. And I guess it is completely inconceivable that Thrawn was grooming Pelleaon as his successor. You know, the man who would later become supreme commander of the navy. Thrawn couldn't possibly have seen his potential.

Illuminatus Primus wrote:

Crazy Ivan wrote:

Illuminatus Primus wrote:His apparently only rarely issued edicts to his government. Leaving it mostly to run itself.

Since he was in the middle of a war campaign that would make sense.

Palpatine nearly toppled the New Republic, and maintained control and administration even while engineering it's destruction--even when he was temporarily dead and while simultaneously trying to collect Skywalker.

Do we ever see Palpatine issue an edict to the government? Do we ever see him give orders to others than the military or his dark jedi?

Illuminatus Primus wrote:

Crazy Ivan wrote:

Illuminatus Primus wrote:Not very bright when the Dark Empire Sourceboook says much of the Imperial power structure wanted Thrawn dead. Politically stupid.

You ignore that if Thrawn had conquered the New Republic and rebuilt the Empire, his men would have hailed him as a hero. Difficult to stage a coup if the entire lower half of the military ladder wanted Thrawn as Emperor.

Six Imperial warlords and the remnants of the pre-Thrawn Imperial government rather easily siezed Coruscant less than six months after Thrawn failed. Much of the Outer Rim in the form of the Pentastar Alignment CHOSE not to side with Thrawn. And many commanders and politicians wanted to eliminate Thrawn according to the Dark Empire Sourcebook.

More indications that Thrawn had a solid grip on his Empire, since they never elliminated him.

Illuminatus Primus wrote:Whitewash whatever you want--that's what was happening and fact is--Thrawn DID not conquer Coruscant and you can't prove he would have. He did not conquer Coruscant and was losing the Battle of Bilbringi when he was eliminated. When he was unable to protect an Imperial shipyard from assault because he did not account for the manuvers of an X-Wing squadron and two assault frigates, its a leap in logic to assume he would've effortlessly taken Coruscant since he was losing Bilbringi. TTT says Thrawn is not infalliable. Get it?

I don't need to. Thrawn never tried to conquer Coruscant, he just wanted to put it out of business for a while. And I've never said Thrawn was not infalliable.

Illuminatus Primus wrote:

Crazy Ivan wrote:

Illuminatus Primus wrote:Thrawn was a tactical genius, but he became fixated on tiny details rather than the big picture and apparently thought he could simply win the war on the back of his own tactical prowess and assaults.

Again, he was winning the war 'on the back of his own tactical prowess and assaults.'

Because a single superiority fleet wins wars in a galaxy of tens of thousands of ISD-scale warships. There were other commmanders fighting y'know. And he was losing at Bilbringi, remember?

Yes, because his task force were fighting and winning key victories. And I am well aware there were other commanders fighting. As for Bilbringi, see above.

Illuminatus Primus wrote:

Crazy Ivan wrote:

Illuminatus Primus wrote:Grand Admiral Zaarin, despite inferior logistical and intelligence resources, consistently forced Thrawn to engage Zaarin on his own terms, when and where he wanted even if Thrawn consistently defeated him in the game of tactics.

Who of them won?

Do you understand what the difference between tactics and strategy is? Is Monty or Rommel the better General? Monty won because of better logistical support. Likewise with Thrawn: Zaarin was always able to get away without total loss and survive, which was his goal, and still manage to choose when and where Thrawn would have to fight him. Zaarin is arguably an equal commander to Thrawn.

I haven't read that series, so I'm not really qualified to debate it. However, I've heard that once Thrawn had studied the kind of art Zaarin liked, he was able to constantly predict what Zaarin would do. In fact, I've heard that Thrawn outsmarted Zaarin and destroyed his entire fleet, leaving only Zaarin to escape. Thrawn had even predicted that, and made sure that Zaarin didn't know his ship would explode if he turned on the cloaking device while in hyperspace.

Illuminatus Primus wrote:

Crazy Ivan wrote:

Illuminatus Primus wrote:Thrawn's strategic failings are nothing new.

Strategic failings that shook the New Republic in its foundations and nearly caused their downfall.

Tactics != strategy

The New Republic were friggin' idiots. Even with Palpatine and the whole Starfleet's support, a renegade admiral with only his own fleet gave Thrawn a run for his money while still always choosing the battles on his terms. Zaarin was a superior strategist than Thrawn. Which is the better tactician is debateable.

Please tell me how Thrawn was supposed to fight Zaarin if he didn't know where the man was? As we see at the end of the Empire Strikes Back, a fleet can hide in deep space for quite some time. Again, Thrawn wasn't psychic.

All it boils down to is that we don't know whether Thrawn would make a good statesman or not, yet you just assume that he's a bad one. If we don't know how he ran his Empire, how could you possibly know he made a poor job?

Maybe I should just follow your own tactic; call your arguments 'fucking stupid' and deside I'm right.

Crazy Ivan wrote:Notice how I suddenly become an apologist because I don't agree with him.

I guess Thrawn never briefed all those officers prior to conquering Ukio, IIRC (Not sure if it was Ukio.). But I guess they don't qualify for some reason.

Yes, it was the Battle of Ukio. He did contact some task-force commanders ... WHICH UNTIL TLC, were still clearly mere Captains of Thrawn's personal task force. We know Captain Brandei of Judicator, for instance, and he was a lone ship. He was suddenly "bumped" to task force commander upon receival of the Katana. That's equivalent to a Star Destroyer "Line" and about two Attack Lines worth of warship (If he had 8 Dreadnaughts like the Bellicose) - a Commodore's job.

Yet Thrawn apparently couldn't find a REAL commodore anywhere in his guys under his command. So he has to advance people to new positions. As I said on another thread, I wonder how they are doing in their new, unfamiliar posts.

Besides, they are all subcommanders for one battle. What about other battles?

Crazy Ivan wrote:I guess Thrawn never briefed all those officers prior to conquering Ukio, IIRC (Not sure if it was Ukio.). But I guess they don't qualify for some reason.

Regardless of how much you don't like it you can't maintain a war effort without the government staying loyal and supplying you with everything you need, without delay. Deal with it.

Supplying a superiority fleet with maybe a couple battle squadrons support is something warlords could do easily. The Empire has thousands of ISDs.

And what's this have diddly shit to do with the fact that Thrawn never communicates with the Imperial government? I never claimed it didn't exist--we know it did. But from the TTT you'd never know--Thrawn does not awknowledge it. Why is this difficult to grasp?

Crazy Ivan wrote:Those are mine points. Someone would have to administer the Empire, or it would have collapsed while Thrawn was campaigning.

Dictators and commanders-in-chief run authoritorian regimes and dictate military strategy and policy.

Crazy Ivan wrote:Someone had to make budgetary decisions, or Thrawn couldn't have sustained a war effort.

Idiot! All the other campiagning heads of state kept in direct communication with the government or brought it with them. It is Thrawn's duty to exercise his will over the policy and important decrees of the Imperial government. Half of them wanted him dead. It would be common sense to control it.

Crazy Ivan wrote:Someone must have ensured that the political schemes kept him on top, or he would have been disposed of. Since none of this happened,

Palpatine's agents percipitated Thrawn's disposal--you're completely wrong. The Ubiqtorate remained secretly loyal to Palpatine.

Crazy Ivan wrote:it is clear that he must have had a nice, cool government in place and kept a strong hand on it. But he would also have prioritized his war campaign - a defeat would have been disastrous.

Single superiority fleets did not make or break wars in the GFFA.

Crazy Ivan wrote:We never get to hear Thrawn's thoughts. We never get to know what Thrawn is doing in his quarters when Pelleaon isn't there. In short, we know very little of what he does when he's not on the bridge, and even then we only get to know via Pellaeon's POW. And even with such little material you somehow draw the conclusion that Thrawn is a poor statesman. I repeat; all you have is assumptions.

Argument from Ignorance.

He is never observed fullfilling his duties as commander-in-chief and dictator of the Empire. The end.

Crazy Ivan wrote:And give me one single example of a dictatorship that didn't have elements that wanted to kill the man on top.

Not as unstable and anti-Thrawn as much of the Imperial elite.

This doesn't excuse it--this is saying "well look they had problems too!"

Doesn't make Thrawn any less apparently negligent.

Crazy Ivan wrote:Thrawn's squadron was his personal task force which he of course ran personally. What good would a commodore do there if Thrawn ran it himself? With their depleted manpower he'd do much better leading another squadron somewhere else. And of course he had other admirals, commodores and whatnot under his command. I never said anything else; I was just pointing out that Thrawn's part of the Empire suffered form a lack of manpower.

Yes or no. We never observe Thrawn the Supreme Commander making military policy and major strategy decisions. There had to be a hundred superiority fleets active during the campiagn--all we see is Thrawn's.

Crazy Ivan wrote:Funny, I remember Thrawn saying something like: "We aren't beaten yet, not by a long shot." But of course he should have anticipated an attack from a place where there wasn't any New Republic ships. He also should have anticipated that the smugglers would turn against him due to that fool Ferrier.

Even Thrawn couldn't draw conclusion from information he didn't have. He was a genius, not a psychic.

And how the heck do you know that enough ships from the Katana fleet would arrive in time? Or do you just 'know' like you seem to do with most else that has to do with Thrawn?

He was setting a trap--besides--the Essential Guide to Characters fingers Katana fleet reinforcements. His battle plan was so fragile 1 X-Wing squadron and 2 Assault Frigates fucked it all up. The end.

Crazy Ivan wrote:Pelleaon never gave the fleet, or even Thrawn's personal task force, an order while in battle. Never.

No shit! Line Captains command starships--Admirals command fleets.

Point is Thrawn had no second-in-command and/or successor. That is a stupid strategic and political decision.

Crazy Ivan wrote:And I guess it is completely inconceivable that Thrawn was grooming Pelleaon as his successor. You know, the man who would later become supreme commander of the navy. Thrawn couldn't possibly have seen his potential.

Pelleaon is a failure.

He took more than 50 years to become a Line Captain--and that's because his superior died.

Every engagement par one Pelleaon fought against the Rebels as a fleet commander he lost.

Even with Palpatine he lost the Chimaera. The only time he succeeded was temporarily in annhiliating the Fleet Carrier Endourance with the Reaper. I can't tell you how impressed I am by an Executor-class destroying a puny carrier less than a 17th it's size and later getting the same Executor-class blown up by a former starfighter pilot-come-fleet commander less than half his age and with no real former military education.

He lost again and again. He sided with Daala (stupid).

Pelleaon ended up ruling the Empire because everyone else with the rank of Fleet Admiral was dead. Ruling over a frankenstien coalition or warlord fleets and moff kingdoms fancying itself as the Empire and controling 8 sectors is not potential. Pelleaon failed in almost every concievable way and was nothing remarkable. He simply refused to die until he was the only one left in line to take power.

Crazy Ivan wrote:Do we ever see Palpatine issue an edict to the government? Do we ever see him give orders to others than the military or his dark jedi?

How about giving the Grand Moffs direct control over their territories. How about abolishing the Senate? How about formerly declaring martial law and announcing the build-up to counter the Alliance? How about his massive staff, buearacracy, and advisors and assitance? Suppose Thrawn's too uber for any of that eh?

This is apologism. Even if Palpatine didn't--that would excuse Zahn's writing or Thrawn's negligence.

Crazy Ivan wrote:More indications that Thrawn had a solid grip on his Empire, since they never elliminated him.

Actually they did. Noghri contingents remained loyal to Palpatine--as did most of his Hands and Imperial Intelligence. Its all spelled out in the Dark Empire Sourcebook. Thrawn's death was a direct consequence of Palpatine's wish. Its subsequent collapse even though the only direct loss due to Thrawn's death was a shipyard and a fleet thrown into disarray. Failed as a strategist and a statesman.

Crazy Ivan wrote:I don't need to. Thrawn never tried to conquer Coruscant, he just wanted to put it out of business for a while.

You implied he would have. Unjustified assumption. Dropping cloaked rocks into orbit to lure them into a trap is a clever game--but not genius or assuredness of conquest.

Crazy Ivan wrote:Yes, because his task force were fighting and winning key victories. And I am well aware there were other commanders fighting. As for Bilbringi, see above.

Did not communicate to other commanders. Tactics does not win a war--strategy does. Thrawn lost and his Empire again collapsed and lost all gains. This is not hard to understand.

Crazy Ivan wrote:I haven't read that series, so I'm not really qualified to debate it. However, I've heard that once Thrawn had studied the kind of art Zaarin liked, he was able to constantly predict what Zaarin would do.

Oh..my..God...not this again.

Crazy Ivan wrote:In fact, I've heard that Thrawn outsmarted Zaarin and destroyed his entire fleet, leaving only Zaarin to escape. Thrawn had even predicted that, and made sure that Zaarin didn't know his ship would explode if he turned on the cloaking device while in hyperspace.

Well he had overwhelming superiority and deprived Zaarin of intelligence. You're not explaining how this makes Zaarin not a better strategist and a poorer tactician.

Crazy Ivan wrote:Please tell me how Thrawn was supposed to fight Zaarin if he didn't know where the man was? As we see at the end of the Empire Strikes Back, a fleet can hide in deep space for quite some time. Again, Thrawn wasn't psychic.

Its called Intelligence. Even with Imperial Intelligence, Zaarin still cut his losses and determined how, where, and when battles would be fought. He is a superior strategist.

Crazy Ivan wrote:All it boils down to is that we don't know whether Thrawn would make a good statesman or not, yet you just assume that he's a bad one. If we don't know how he ran his Empire, how could you possibly know he made a poor job?

Actually we never see him with a staff, a proper command system half the time, never see a second-in-command, he had no successor, and we never see him carry out his duties as dictator and commander-in-chief. Since that is what he is--it follows he must be at least somewhat negligent and overly fixated on the tactics of his campiagn.

Crazy Ivan wrote:Maybe I should just follow your own tactic; call your arguments 'fucking stupid' and deside I'm right.

Maybe according to you, we should assume Thrawn did all these things well because "he must have."

Kazuaki Shimazaki wrote:Besides, they are all subcommanders for one battle. What about other battles?

THANK YOU.

What's so hard to understand that most of the Imperial Navy (and the Empire itself, for that matter) is simply absent in TTT.

PainRack wrote:*snip bullshit excuses and apologism*

The Empire was a firm government holding 1/4 of the galaxy and had tens of thousands or at least thousands of ISDs probably still.

No government, no staff, no rest of the Imperial Navy shown. Zahn wrote stupidly and Thrawn looks like an absentee dictator/commander-in-chief who's Empire unsuprisingly desintegrates without him due to his own negligence as a result. Live with it.

Illuminatus Primus wrote:Pelleaon is a failure.

He took more than 50 years to become a Line Captain--and that's because his superior died.

Every engagement par one Pelleaon fought against the Rebels as a fleet commander he lost.

Even with Palpatine he lost the Chimaera. The only time he succeeded was temporarily in annhiliating the Fleet Carrier Endourance with the Reaper. I can't tell you how impressed I am by an Executor-class destroying a puny carrier less than a 17th it's size and later getting the same Executor-class blown up by a former starfighter pilot-come-fleet commander less than half his age and with no real former military education.

He lost again and again. He sided with Daala (stupid).

Pelleaon ended up ruling the Empire because everyone else with the rank of Fleet Admiral was dead. Ruling over a frankenstien coalition or warlord fleets and moff kingdoms fancying itself as the Empire and controling 8 sectors is not potential. Pelleaon failed in almost every concievable way and was nothing remarkable. He simply refused to die until he was the only one left in line to take power.

Shit, man. I knew Pellaeon had a problem when he took 50 years to make Captain, but I honestly didn't know he was THIS BAD. ARe there mitigating circumstances, such as the possibility he's badly outnumbered?

The fact he was part of Operation Shadow Hand means the NR was losing and the entire resurgent Imperial fleet under Palpatine he was part of.

As Orinda where the Reaper got nuked by Lusankya and Antilles, the fact he was temporarily able to achieve a victory blowing up the Endurance indicates it was not a one-sided battle.

He chose futile offensives twice against the NR which ended in utter defeat and got him down to 8 diddly systems.

He chose to side with Daala.

At best, Pelleaon is unlucky and reliable. He's definitely no genius.

Illuminatus Primus wrote:

PainRack wrote:*snip bullshit excuses and apologism*

The Empire was a firm government holding 1/4 of the galaxy and had tens of thousands or at least thousands of ISDs probably still.

No government, no staff, no rest of the Imperial Navy shown. Zahn wrote stupidly and Thrawn looks like an absentee dictator/commander-in-chief who's Empire unsuprisingly desintegrates without him due to his own negligence as a result. Live with it.

1/4 of the backwater of the galaxy,with a significant amount of former Imperial forces under warlord rule or clustered in the Deep Core,waiting for the Emperor resurgence.

For that matter,Grand Admiral Thrawn himself could be viewed as a rebel against the Empire,leading another warlord faction.

Again,when Yuan Shi Kai took over the Qing Dynasty and founded the Republic of China,did he have access to the former generals and admirals of the Qing?He had to promote captains to generals.Like how Chiang Kai shek shot from being a mere leutant to commander in chief of all KMT forces in a few years.

I fail to see how the rationalisation doesn't work.The warlordism of the Empire meant that the Empire personnel shortfall,something that's commented on in the HOTE left Thrawn without any significant Imperial forces for the offensive,or the neccesary leaders to do so.As such,in such a situation,it was normal for juniors to face rapid promotion and took over tasks that may be unsuited for them.Especially if a rapid expansion of forces began.Again,Rommel.In the space of a few years,he was catapulted from Hitler bodyguard commander,to a division commander and made a Field Marshal over an entier Army Korps.


Staff members aren't visible to the public or visible,period.Their role in the British army{ as contrasted to the US in which their role is to plan for an offensive} is to make the plan work.They allocate supplies,dedicate movement tables,transport,terrain,time-charts,supply intelligence etc etc etc.


In fact,if we assume the GE navy staff to be run along the lines of a British staff,we did see Thrawn have a staff.Its called Intelligence.Or in terminology,G2.

So,I ask again?what do you need for us to prove?

He had an intelligence staff that he consulted with.
Were there any significant other attack on the New Republic that he didn't oversee?
Does the fact that Thrawn knew the status of the Empire food supply and conscription rate indicate that he didn't know about the civilian side?


Yes.Thrawn was not a supreme stragetist.He has been inflated.Zahn writings is miminalist in nature.However,if we consider the nature of the novel,a sort of autobiography written after the main character has died about his most defining moment,then,all this can be rationalised.