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Darth Wong wrote:

IG-88E wrote:Hey, cut them a little slack, they're a "Warrior" race, not an "Intelligent warrior" race.

They're "warriors" in the sense that ant colonies have a warrior class.

Except that ants haven't been dumb enough to let themselves be remade as a one-note species.

*L* Klingons versus Driver or Army Ants anyone???

My cash is on the ants...

Darth Wong wrote:

IG-88E wrote:

To even give the Klingons the title of 'Warrior race' they can't be military handicaped, and that is exactly what they are. Humans today are far more worthy the title 'Warrior race'

Hey, cut them a little slack, they're a "Warrior" race, not an "Intelligent warrior" race.

They're "warriors" in the sense that ant colonies have a warrior class.

Actually, that might not be far off the mark. Perhaps the close combat response is actually hard-wired into Klingons? Only particularly mentally agile or thoroughly trained Klingons could then long resist the urge to simply charge howling at the enemy and chop that enemy down.

Klingons are not, after all, humans. Therefore they do not need to have brains that work exactly the way human brains work. Klingons might be much less mentally agile than humans, and less innovative. Mentally, an average Klingon might be closer to a particularly smart Homo Habilis than a Homo Sapiens. Thus, once Klingons find something and find that it works for them, they'll use it forever, without a thought to change or improvement.

Of course, this means that Klingons could not have plausibly developed warp drives, shields, torpedoes, transportrs and disruptors. They could not have plausibly developed a transistor radio. But an incautious first contact expedition to open trade with some savages would have exposed those savages to advanced technologies. At some point those savages, faced with some painfully naive spacefarers, whip out their stone-tipped spears and daggers and hundreds upon hundreds of klingons swamp some flustered merchants or anthropologists by sheer weight of numbers. A knowledgeable prisoner or two provides the basic know-how, and an agonizingly slow and haphazard campaign of interstellar piracy and assimilation of technologies ensues.

This concept of a hard-wired "yell and charge" instinct coupled with limited mental agility maps well with the very similar behavior of the Jem'Hadar, whose own "yell and charge" instincts and limited mental agility are obviously rooted in tailored genes.

Uh, how does that mesh with how the Klingons in TOS are portrayed?

neoolong wrote:Uh, how does that mesh with how the Klingons in TOS are portrayed?

The Klingons form TOS were obviously the products of a superior education and military training system. This would have then allowed them to sublimate and channel their innate reactions into useful channels. The Klingons of TOS certainly seemed a lot more civilized and disciplined than their maniacally yodeling and slashing younger generation.

Lord Poe wrote:

Joe Momma wrote:It's interesting to note that Worf seems to be a better fighter than the average Klingon though he was raised in the pacifistic Federation rather than the warmongering Klingon Empire.

Actually, Worf isn't much better. He is just as slow and plodding as any Klingon I've seen swing that Bat'leth. Kira would kick his ass too. Then ass-rape him with the dildo.

Hey, I like Worf!

I want him to use his much vaunted Klingon, err, "hardware" on Col. Kira.

That bit about the dildo, I do not see! *covers eyes, shouts LALALALALA!*

But I think he'd easily whip her ass. Worf gets off on beating up women. Nothing motivates you to win a fight like libido

Shifting gears a little, I figured this was distantly relevant, maybe:

Soon after Worf showed up on DS9, I seem to recall that Robert Hewitt Wolfe, Behr, and some of the others actually considered pairing Worf and Kira after a very stormy courtship. Dax would've been the "Klingon-understanding advisor" who'd finally fall for Bashir; and Odo, still loving Kira, would have lots of confrontations with Worf over his jealousy. Their disagreements would work on a couple of levels: one security officer vs. another, two outcasts, etc.

I like the way things turned out for the MOST part, but I think it would've been cool to see more development between the Worf-Odo dynamic.

Oh well. I'm deviating...sorry guys and gals!

Patrick Ogaard wrote:

neoolong wrote:Uh, how does that mesh with how the Klingons in TOS are portrayed?

The Klingons form TOS were obviously the products of a superior education and military training system. This would have then allowed them to sublimate and channel their innate reactions into useful channels. The Klingons of TOS certainly seemed a lot more civilized and disciplined than their maniacally yodeling and slashing younger generation.

Hmm, then why'd they let the rejects out into space in other series?

neoolong wrote:

Patrick Ogaard wrote:

neoolong wrote:Uh, how does that mesh with how the Klingons in TOS are portrayed?

The Klingons form TOS were obviously the products of a superior education and military training system. This would have then allowed them to sublimate and channel their innate reactions into useful channels. The Klingons of TOS certainly seemed a lot more civilized and disciplined than their maniacally yodeling and slashing younger generation.

Hmm, then why'd they let the rejects out into space in other series?

Maybe it was their way of clearing the crap of their genepool.

Vympel wrote:Isn't there some fucking moronic Voyager episode that has Klingons beating Wehrmacht soldiers? Fuck whoever wrote that should be SHOT for their fucking rank ignorance.

To be fair, it was a holodeck program, but when bat'leth-wielding Klingons can effortlessly overrun a HMG position that's been fairly well supported and is well staffed, I kind of thought that there should have been a little common-sense alarm clicking on.

neoolong wrote:

Patrick Ogaard wrote:

neoolong wrote:Uh, how does that mesh with how the Klingons in TOS are portrayed?

The Klingons form TOS were obviously the products of a superior education and military training system. This would have then allowed them to sublimate and channel their innate reactions into useful channels. The Klingons of TOS certainly seemed a lot more civilized and disciplined than their maniacally yodeling and slashing younger generation.

Hmm, then why'd they let the rejects out into space in other series?

The rejects obviously took over. The evil and overtly cynical but highly educated and disciplined materialistic Klingon Empire of TOS underwent a massive shift throughout the TOS-based movies and the later series. Ultimately, it was replaced from the inside by the evil and covertly cynical but ignorant and undisciplined religious/spiritual Klingon Empire of TNG and beyond.

Klingon warrior effectiveness can only be described as "lack thereof". Give me a Heckler & Koch G36K assault carbine and a couple of Kimber Custom CDP-II .45 semiautomatics with enough ammunition, and I can probably capture a Bird of Prey single-handedly.

How did they develop the common sense to use concentrated disruptor fire to take care of the Martok changeling, then? Granted it wasn't a battlefield situation, but it was a breath of fresh air. And one of DS9's coolest moments.

Montcalm wrote:I have a crazy idea sending an army of monkey against Klingons,they may get slaughtered but the Klingons will be covered with crap.

Regular monkies or SD.net Rabid Monkeys?

Frank Hipper wrote:How did they develop the common sense to use concentrated disruptor fire to take care of the Martok changeling, then? Granted it wasn't a battlefield situation, but it was a breath of fresh air. And one of DS9's coolest moments.

I'd say they were all too liquored up to want to charge something like a Changeling, especially as Klingons appear to have an almost phobic reaction to the very concept of the Changelings. Obviously, though, drunken Klingons can shoot dead straight.

Given that the Klingons in attendance were supposed to be the very cream of the crop, the very warrior elite of the Empire, it's not surprising that they would whip out disruptor pistols and shoot the Changeling full of little green glowing balls of light. Pistol fire is, after all, the standard opening gambit of many Klingons.

And, yes, it was indeed a spiffy scene in DS9.

My only question regarding Klingon "combat effectiveness" would be what calibre of bullet you need to penetrate their thick skulls. When it comes to the Klingons/Jem'hadar, Trek's writers need to be sat down with some history books (I'm thinking WW1 trench warfare in particular) until they comprehend what modern weapons do to massed charges.

Given their propensity to IGNORE real-world history, I think it'd be a waste of time expecting the moe and larry brigade in charge there to actually comprehend what even WW II tech -level weapons systems are capable of.....


Bah!
Give me a platoon of panzergrenadiers with MG42 support and the Klingo-vikings get slaughtered 100 to 1

Patrick Ogaard wrote:

neoolong wrote:

Patrick Ogaard wrote: The Klingons form TOS were obviously the products of a superior education and military training system. This would have then allowed them to sublimate and channel their innate reactions into useful channels. The Klingons of TOS certainly seemed a lot more civilized and disciplined than their maniacally yodeling and slashing younger generation.

Hmm, then why'd they let the rejects out into space in other series?

The rejects obviously took over. The evil and overtly cynical but highly educated and disciplined materialistic Klingon Empire of TOS underwent a massive shift throughout the TOS-based movies and the later series. Ultimately, it was replaced from the inside by the evil and covertly cynical but ignorant and undisciplined religious/spiritual Klingon Empire of TNG and beyond.

But this raises the question: When will the Klingon Empire come out of this Dark Age??

Simon H.Johansen wrote: But this raises the question: When will the Klingon Empire come out of this Dark Age??

About the time the various super being stop fucking around with reality causing the fundemental fundation of Trek to change with the wind.

ie
When B&B get kicked out.

What ggs said.

Sending a moinkey like say an enraged orangutan against a klingon will result in a mangled klingon.. I heard a story of how a scientist was watching one in a crate it ,for the hell of it I guess, pulled a nail through one inch wood boards pointed end towards itself .IE the hard way

What was the board and what was the nail?

ggs wrote:

Simon H.Johansen wrote: But this raises the question: When will the Klingon Empire come out of this Dark Age??

About the time the various super being stop fucking around with reality causing the fundemental fundation of Trek to change with the wind.

ie
When B&B get kicked out.

I'm afraid B&B will realize they have wrecked the Star Trek franchise as badly as Joel Schumacher wrecked the "Batman" movies.

you know this Tread reminds me of my Zulu threads

Star Wars Vs Star Trek Zulu

Star Wars Vs Star Trek Zulu the flip side!

In both of these the Klingons did not recieve much confidence in their chance of succeeding

It's worth noting that they are warriors, not soldiers.

Ignoring the implausibility, 1,000 TNG+ klingons are shrunk down to 3mm high and told to attack an ant nest. What happens?