Communism - should it be banned??

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Post by Axis Kast »

No, a slippery slope argument takes the form "A will cause B, which will cause C, which will cause D, etc. until we reach a very bad end". Simply saying "I think A will cause B" cannot possibly be a slippery slope.
Semantics, Wong. It's the best example of slippery slope I've ever seen around here, whether or not we agree.

Remember, the "slippery slope" argument isn't just "chaining," it's also got to do with "worst case scenario" predictions - ie, "You can't do that or it'll inevitably lead to this horrendous outcome!"
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Post by Colonel Olrik »

Axis Kast wrote: Semantics, Wong. It's the best example of slippery slope I've ever seen around here, whether or not we agree.

Remember, the "slippery slope" argument isn't just "chaining," it's also got to do with "worst case scenario" predictions - ie, "You can't do that or it'll inevitably lead to this horrendous outcome!"
Slippery slope: If we ban guns, we'll soon be banning other rights as well and living in a police state.

The events are related. The second is just a gross exageration of the first.

In this case, a slippery slope would be saying that banning the communists will soon lead to banning of all the other parties and the end of democracy.

Can't you really see the difference between that and saying that forbidding the communist parties may lead to the formation of extremist movements? The ideas are different.
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Post by Darth Wong »

Axis Kast wrote:Remember, the "slippery slope" argument isn't just "chaining," it's also got to do with "worst case scenario" predictions - ie, "You can't do that or it'll inevitably lead to this horrendous outcome!"
No, that's a non sequitur. A slippery slope DOES require a chain of events; it's part of the definition. A DIRECT CAUSAL CONNECTION (ie- one which does not require a chain of events to occur) does not qualify.
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Re: Communism - should it be banned??

Post by weemadando »

Simon H.Johansen wrote:I think it's fairly well-known that some countries have banned Fascism and its offshoot ideologies - most notably Germany. (for obvious reasons)
And? Can you really blame them for banning it?

[qutoe]Then I wonder why Communist movements haven't faced the same problems[/quote]

Generally because Communism doesn't call for the marginalisation, discrimination and stratification that facism generally does.
- particularly considering:

1. The ideology of Communism is built upon the idea that human rights are a "petty-bourgeois" concept.
Wrong. Human rights are central to Communism, as establishing a basic set of rights for ALL was the original intent of the Communist doctrine.
2. Hitler, to a large extent, modelled his regime upon Mussolini's, which in turn was modelled upon the Soviet Union itself. (Mussolini was a former Communist, so he might have gotten access to Lenin's works and picked up his ideas about totalitarianism)
Riiiiiight. Thats about the least sensical thing I've read in the past few days.
3. The gulags of the afore-mentioned Soviet Union killed far more people than the KZ camps of Nazi Germany. (and that's before we add the )
Add the what? And also, the gulags were an invention of a totalitarian regime. Not a communist one.
4. Communists believe that all of society's problems can be solved by limiting individual freedom as much as possible.
I thought the Bush Administration believed that. Communism believes that the majority of societies problems can be solved by attempting to make all equal, legally, socially and economically.
The only conclusion that can be drawn from these facts is that Communism is just as dangerous an ideology as Fascism.
Only if you're a closet nutcase.
Yet, in most European nations, Nazis are met with scorn by anyone except for their fellow Nazis, while starting a left-wing extremist party is not only perfectly legitimate, but also socially acceptable. In fact, very soon a school in my area is home to a political meeting with the youth fronts from two political parties... and one of the parties is SUF, a communist fringe group which actually encourages terrorist activity without getting any complaints from the authorities!
Bullshit. The SUF has been in more than a little shit with the authorities on many occassions. And the fact that people dislike inbred hill-billy skinheads will often have nothing to do with the fact that they are fucking racist to boot eh? Its just because they're facist.
How can this be so?? Are world governments infiltrated by Communists? Or is it just ordinary public ignorance of Communist atrocities??
Everyone's well aware of "Communist" atrocities. Unfortunately, none of them have been commited by or for Communism. Just in its name as a convenience.
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Post by Tom_Aurum »

Thank you, finally I have the feeling that someone around here isn't totally into bush's new fascism. But I digress. Anyways, Christianity has been supportive of a much longer (if, mayhaps, less impressive) series of atrocities. And notice how it's a religion. Ideology shouldn't be banned. That's one of our founding principles in this nation.
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Post by Howedar »

One should not and cannot ban an ideology.
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Post by Enforcer Talen »

one cant ban sucessfully an ideology, true.

and, stalin did quite a few things for his mode of communism.
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Post by weemadando »

Enforcer Talen wrote:one cant ban sucessfully an ideology, true.

and, stalin did quite a few things for his mode of communism.
Stalin was a devout totalitarian nutcase.

Not a devout communist.
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Post by Enforcer Talen »

communism doesnt work. stalin took its theory to one of its conclusions.
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Post by Joe »

And? Can you really blame them for banning it?
Yes, I can blame them. I think it's an infringement on free speech either way; however, if we're going to argue that fascism is so dangerous that the advocacy of it, even if nonviolent, must be banned, then it is only right to do the same thing for communism. Communism has a much higher body count than fascism; if anything, fascism is the less dangerous of the two.
Generally because Communism doesn't call for the marginalisation, discrimination and stratification that facism generally does.
Yes; communism may call for the forced separation of children from their parents and seizure of everyone's property at gunpoint, but at least it doesn't call for discrimination.
Wrong. Human rights are central to Communism, as establishing a basic set of rights for ALL was the original intent of the Communist doctrine.
Right, and the idea of cheap, renewable energy for all was central to Joe Newman's energy machine. Doesn't change the fact that it didn't work out that way in reality. Bad ideas are bad ideas.
Riiiiiight. Thats about the least sensical thing I've read in the past few days.
I have to agree; it is true that fascism and communism have much more in common then their proponents may want to admit, but this is a stretch.
Add the what? And also, the gulags were an invention of a totalitarian regime. Not a communist one.
A totalitarian regime whose practices were carried out according to Marxist theory. A regime is defined by its procedure, and the Soviet Union did much of what Marx called for.
I thought the Bush Administration believed that. Communism believes that the majority of societies problems can be solved by attempting to make all equal, legally, socially and economically.
By stamping on individual rights. And please cut the Bush whining; in a country where people can defecate and vomit in public places to express their disapproval of policy, I do not think individual freedoms are being infringed to a great degree.
Only if you're a closet nutcase.
Or just some guy who recoils in absolute horror at communism in practice.
Everyone's well aware of "Communist" atrocities. Unfortunately, none of them have been commited by or for Communism. Just in its name as a convenience.
You sound like one of those Christian nuts who shake off the atrocities of the Nazi regime carried out in the name of Christianity because the Nazis weren't true Christians.
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Post by Illuminatus Primus »

:roll: :roll: :roll:

Not another "that wasn't really Communism that killed 100 million and had to erect walls and lay land mines to keep the workers from escaping from the workers' paradise" apologist.

:roll:
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Post by weemadando »

Illuminatus Primus wrote::roll: :roll: :roll:

Not another "that wasn't really Communism that killed 100 million and had to erect walls and lay land mines to keep the workers from escaping from the workers' paradise" apologist.

:roll:
Actually, a person who is saying that it recognised FACT that Communism didn't do that. A totalitarian derivation of socialism originally founded on Marxism did that.

To blame Marx for what happened under Stalin is like saying that Jesus was directly responsible for the actions of the Inquisition. Well, maybe that analogy isn't that grand.
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Re: Communism - should it be banned??

Post by Peregrin Toker »

weemadando wrote:
- particularly considering:

1. The ideology of Communism is built upon the idea that human rights are a "petty-bourgeois" concept.
Wrong. Human rights are central to Communism, as establishing a basic set of rights for ALL was the original intent of the Communist doctrine.
"None of the supposed rights of man, therefore, go beyond the egoistic man, man as he is, as a member of civil society; that is, an individual separated from the community, withdrawn into himself, wholly preoccupied with his private interest and acting in accordance with his private caprice... Thus man was not liberated from religion; he received religious liberty. He was not liberated from property; he received the liberty to own property. He was not liberated from the egoism of business; he received the liberty to engage in business." - Karl Marx, in his work On The Jewish Question

Karl Marx apparently denies that human rights have much worth.
quote:
2. Hitler, to a large extent, modelled his regime upon Mussolini's, which in turn was modelled upon the Soviet Union itself. (Mussolini was a former Communist, so he might have gotten access to Lenin's works and picked up his ideas about totalitarianism)
Riiiiiight. Thats about the least sensical thing I've read in the past few days.
Hitler noted that Communists made excellent converts to Fascism. Maybe because of eventual similarities between the two ideologies??

Also, when the pact between Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union was signed, Ribbentrop noted:
"It felt like being among old party comrades." He was as much at ease in the Kremlin, he added, "as among my old Nazi friends." Stalin toasted Hitler and said he "knew how much the German people loved the Fuhrer." There were brutal jokes about the Anti-Comintern Pact, now dead, which both sides agreed had been meant simply to impress the City of London and "English shopkeepers." There was the sudden discovery of a community of aims, methods, manners, and, above all, of morals. As the tipsy killers lurched about the room, fumblingly hugging each other, they resembled nothing so much as a congregation of rival gangsters, who had fought each other before, and might do so again, but were essentially in the same racket.

It is also notable that the Nazis and the Soviet Union applied almost similar internal policies in the parts of Poland they occupied during WW2. Fascinating, isn't it??

Hitler also increased regulation on free trade and Hitler's economic policies might have been the most restrictive in the 20th century which weren't flat-out Leninist. Remember -Nazism is an abbrevation of "Nationalist Socialism"... it's called so for a reason.
Add the what? And also, the gulags were an invention of a totalitarian regime. Not a communist one.
Communism is a principally authoritarian ideology. Marx viewed freedom of property, freedom of speech and freedom of religion as hollow freedoms. He described democracy as "The oppressed choose who should oppress them." It is also obvious that he thought that all of society's problems could be solved by limiting individual freedom as much as possible.

However, from history we know that limiting individual freedom doesn't solve as many problems as it creates.
Communism believes that the majority of societies problems can be solved by attempting to make all equal, legally, socially and economically.
By which means? By limiting individual freedom as much as possible.
Unfortunately, none of them have been commited by or for Communism. Just in its name as a convenience.
"But don't wrangle with us so long as you apply, to our intended abolition of bourgeois property, the standard of your bourgeois notions of freedom, culture, law, etc. Your very ideas are but the outgrowth of the conditions of your bourgeois production and bourgeois property, just as your jurisprudence is but the will of your class made into a law for all, a will, whose essential character and direction are determined by the economical conditions of existence of your class." - The Communist Manifesto

It's pretty obvious that Communists regard the very notion of freedom as a byproduct of capitalist thinking, therefore providing lots of excuses for abolishing civil rights.
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Post by Peregrin Toker »

weemadando wrote:
Enforcer Talen wrote:one cant ban sucessfully an ideology, true.

and, stalin did quite a few things for his mode of communism.
Stalin was a devout totalitarian nutcase.

Not a devout communist.
Erm... aren't all political extremists nutcases??
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Post by Dahak »

Durran Korr wrote:
And? Can you really blame them for banning it?
Yes, I can blame them. I think it's an infringement on free speech either way; however, if we're going to argue that fascism is so dangerous that the advocacy of it, even if nonviolent, must be banned, then it is only right to do the same thing for communism. Communism has a much higher body count than fascism; if anything, fascism is the less dangerous of the two.
Not all other countries have the strict definition of free speech as the USA.
For instance, in Germany your right of free speecch only goes so far as long as you doen't infringe on the personal rights of other people, or directly work against the Freiheitlich-Demokratische Grundordnung, the underlying democratic foundation of our country.
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Post by Peregrin Toker »

RedImperator wrote:Furthermore, free societies tolerate dangerous and stupid ideas. That's the whole damn point. You want to make a precedent now out of outlawing "dangerous" ideaologies?
But communism is a threatto a free society. If communists seize power, they might abolish all the civil liberties we hold dear and put up with a lame justification for it.

Remember - communists believe that mass murder can be justified if the victims are capitalists.

Do you really want potential mass murderers among your country's government??
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Post by Crayz9000 »

You are being sarcastic, right?

Just checking.
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Post by Peregrin Toker »

Crayz9000 wrote:You are being sarcastic, right?

Just checking.
No, I'm not sarcastic. I can only post this legitimately because there is free speech, and all communist governments in history have abolished free speech. (as well as any other freedoms)

Furthermore, Karl Marx' writings make it obvious that Communists believe all human rights to be "hollow freedoms", so there is no reason not to assume that any Communist government eventually will turn life into a living hell by:

1. Taking away people's possessions.
2. Enforcing martial law.
3. Suppress and punish anti-communists by any means necessary.

The very ideology encourages intolerance of anyone who dares to speak out against Communism, as evidenced by these words:

"The charges against Communism made from a religious, a philosophical, and generally, from an ideological standpoint, are not deserving of serious examination." - The Communist Manifesto
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Post by Axis Kast »

No, that's a non sequitur. A slippery slope DOES require a chain of events; it's part of the definition. A DIRECT CAUSAL CONNECTION (ie- one which does not require a chain of events to occur) does not qualify.
It’s a case of “worst case scenario” – which inevitably falls under the “slippery slope” blanket. To some extent, this is “chaining implied.” Observe:

“Banning Communism in the United States would cause an immediate outpouring by the left of sympathy for global socialism. This sympathy would immediately result in active, willful indoctrination to socialist groups nationwide. Said socialist groups would immediately become polarized, developing into the epitome of the brand of Communism originally targeted. Thus the crisis would be more severe than before.”
Generally because Communism doesn't call for the marginalisation, discrimination and stratification that facism generally does.
You speak of socialism or democratic socialism on the European model, not functioning Communism.
Riiiiiight. Thats about the least sensical thing I've read in the past few days.
Least sensical and yet most true.

Benito Mussolini was originally an Italian socialist influenced by the writings of Karl Marx and impressed (on some level) with the work of Vladimir Lenin. Hitler adopted the Fascist mantra from Il Duce and then wrought upon it certain changes of his own – particularly those related to capitalism. Thus, certain brands of Hitler’s thinking were by way of V.I. Lenin also familiar to Stalin.
Add the what? And also, the gulags were an invention of a totalitarian regime. Not a communist one.
Communism is anarchic, but only immediately following a phase known as “Dictatorship of the Proletariat.” Gulags – an inevitable result of the class warfare envisioned by Marx and effected by Soviet Bolsheviks – were thus outcomes of the Communist purge put into other use by Stalin. While he certainly had his own agendas, the camps were nevertheless heirs to the Manifesto’s gloom-and-doom doctrine.
I thought the Bush Administration believed that. Communism believes that the majority of societies problems can be solved by attempting to make all equal, legally, socially and economically.
It’s a Catch 22, so to speak. Communism begets Communism and nothing but. The same was true of Fascism. The problem was that Marx declared his system “most attractive” or “most fit” for the average human being; thus the movement was able to adopt the notions of “equality, liberty, freedom, etc.” Unfortunately, Marx had hijacked the ideas from the bourgeois movements in Revolutionary France and tempered them with the caveat that the person most in line with libertine thinking would agree and thus desire no party outside that offered by the Communist organizations in power. It’s a failure of logic.

Worse, the “equality, liberty, and social freedom” about which you speak was never achieved. Communism works on “levels.” Not even the Soviets or Chinese would ever have claimed to have moved past “Dictatorship of the Proletariat,” a time that is by its very nature repressive, dictatorial, and limiting.
Only if you're a closet nutcase.
In its most pure form, Communism is as dangerous as Fascism – if not more. Marx’s original ideas were predicated upon global revolution and the utter liquidation of bourgeois society.
Everyone's well aware of "Communist" atrocities. Unfortunately, none of them have been commited by or for Communism. Just in its name as a convenience.
By Communism? For Communism?

The Bolshiveks committed atrocities against the White Russians by and for Communism. Whether or not they were ultimately successful or lived up to Marx’s demands piece by piece is irrelevant. I’m assuming you’ve read the Manifesto – Marx originally called for violent, bloody, and merciless liquidation of whole demographics during an apocalyptic, worldwide class war.
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Post by Tom_Aurum »

So, first of all, this is all fine and dandy, but it has nothing to do with banning communism. Even if it is evil and dangerous. Another thing. Let me restate this for the record.

Marxism may be one person's slant on communism but...

COMMUNISM IS NOT MARXISM.

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Post by Illuminatus Primus »

weemadando wrote:To blame Marx for what happened under Stalin is like saying that Jesus was directly responsible for the actions of the Inquisition. Well, maybe that analogy isn't that grand.
Damn. That's my point precisely.
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Post by Illuminatus Primus »

Simon H.Johansen wrote:"The charges against Communism made from a religious, a philosophical, and generally, from an ideological standpoint, are not deserving of serious examination." - The Communist Manifesto
Sounds like a religious fanatics warblings dressed in pretty diction of a political scientist. :roll:
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Post by Illuminatus Primus »

Tom_Aurum wrote:So, first of all, this is all fine and dandy, but it has nothing to do with banning communism. Even if it is evil and dangerous. Another thing. Let me restate this for the record.

Marxism may be one person's slant on communism but...

COMMUNISM IS NOT MARXISM.

Thank you.
A fascist apologist could point out Fascism is not Marxism.
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Post by Illuminatus Primus »

Illuminatus Primus wrote:A fascist apologist could point out Fascism is not Marxism.
Er....Fascism is not Nazism.
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