Mother not allowed to force her religion on her children

The Nomad · Post by **The Nomad** » 2003-05-08 08:01am

UltraViolence83 wrote:I've seen some crazy laws in France.

Which laws ?

UltraViolence83 · Post by **UltraViolence83** » 2003-05-08 08:06am

Like the one outlawing the word "walkman" in place of its French equivalent, to preserve the French language. Another, much worse one is the one where a minor cannot question the authority of a civil official. If they do so, their parents get fined and they have to go spend some months in a "reeducation center" which is built into the side of a prison.

But these may not be true. After all, I got them from CompuSuck's news thingy.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-05-08 09:00am

Slippery slope arguments are fallacious, and we don't know what this "exorcism" entailed. Exorcism processes can range from the psychologically abusive to the physically abusive (in the middle ages, there were people who would try to suffocate or drown the demon spirits out of a person). Depending on just how abusive the "exorcism" was, it might be sufficient cause to take the kids away no matter how much religious freedom you have.

neoolong · Post by **neoolong** » 2003-05-08 10:42am

Darth Wong wrote:Slippery slope arguments are fallacious, and we don't know what this "exorcism" entailed. Exorcism processes can range from the psychologically abusive to the physically abusive (in the middle ages, there were people who would try to suffocate or drown the demon spirits out of a person). Depending on just how abusive the "exorcism" was, it might be sufficient cause to take the kids away no matter how much religious freedom you have.

Uh, I thought only trained priests or whatever are allowed to perform exorcisms. What the hell was she doing?

Darth Servo · Post by **Darth Servo** » 2003-05-08 11:37am

Darth Wong wrote:in the middle ages, there were people who would try to suffocate or drown the demon spirits out of a person.

As stupid as fundies are, I have yet to meet one that thought something abusive like that would actually work. Extreme Catholics will usually just say a few 'Hail Marry's and drip holy water on the "possessed".

Darth Gojira · Post by **Darth Gojira** » 2003-05-08 12:17pm

neoolong wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:Slippery slope arguments are fallacious, and we don't know what this "exorcism" entailed. Exorcism processes can range from the psychologically abusive to the physically abusive (in the middle ages, there were people who would try to suffocate or drown the demon spirits out of a person). Depending on just how abusive the "exorcism" was, it might be sufficient cause to take the kids away no matter how much religious freedom you have.
Uh, I thought only trained priests or whatever are allowed to perform exorcisms. What the hell was she doing?

Being a fundie idiot(I repeat myslef constantly), of course!

Alferd Packer · Post by **Alferd Packer** » 2003-05-08 12:27pm

The really creepy part is that my knowledge of German permits me at least a partial understanding of the original text of the article.

Durandal · Post by **Durandal** » 2003-05-08 01:15pm

She should move to America, Land of the Free, where she'll be free to savagely beat her children because her religious beliefs tell her it's okay.

By the way, am I the only one who laughed when he read that she had to pay a fine for trying to indoctrinate her children?

Dahak · Post by **Dahak** » 2003-05-08 06:39pm

I think that woman would have had good chances of geting her child taken away from her here in Germany.
Because it could be seen as being harmful to the well-being of the child in question...

Lord Sander · Post by **Lord Sander** » 2003-05-08 11:53pm

Dutch court would probably have ruled similarly. Kids are with their father, mother is allowed to see them, kids are out of range of a cult.
Not a bad ruling, imo.

Frank Hipper · Post by **Frank Hipper** » 2003-05-09 12:42am

Darth Servo wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:in the middle ages, there were people who would try to suffocate or drown the demon spirits out of a person.
As stupid as fundies are, I have yet to meet one that thought something abusive like that would actually work. Extreme Catholics will usually just say a few 'Hail Marry's and drip holy water on the "possessed".

I read once where a German girl starved to death during the course of her exorcism in the early 70s. Maybe I should look into it further......

Howedar · Post by **Howedar** » 2003-05-09 12:45am

Insufficient data on this one IMHO. What the parent did is not real rigidly defined, by any means.

Queeb Salaron · Post by **Queeb Salaron** » 2003-05-12 01:19pm

This goes back to the whole indoctrination of religion into your kids thing. We had a thread about this, but I don't feel like looking for it at the moment.

Catholic baptismal rites make the parents promise that they will raise their kids as Catholics. After confirmation, they are no longer considered Catholic by association, but rather Catholic by choice; they are not Catholic because they are the sons or daughters of Catholic parents, but of their own free will. In the US, this practice is largely accepted. In many circles (on the Right), forcing kids into churches is actually a GOOD thing, nearly necessary for the survival of moral / ethical / family values. Let me expound a little:

A kid is born to Catholic parents (as an example; this works with most sects of Protestantism, too). His parents have him baptized and make the solemn vow before God Almighty that he will be raised Catholic. So the boy, kicking and screaming when he is old enough to do so, is dragged to church. And then to CCD. And then to First Communion classes. Suckered in by the images of gold-plated statuettes of Mary and Gabriel, and awed by the enormous crucified Jesus behind the altar, the child becomes enamoured with Catholicism. While church is still boring, they sit and listen to the hymnals and pray the Our Father and Hail Mary, just to show that they can do so. They deal with the pungent aroma of incense during the major holidays, and maybe even get their foreheads soiled on Ash Wednesday with smears of charcoal. In their early years, they may even have sword-fights with the palms on Palm Sunday (a more fantastic irony I have never observed in real life). And they are raised as such. Upon reaching adolescence, they are confronted with the idea of Confirmation, which is the Church's way of saying, "Ok, you're REALLY sure you want to do this?" Of course, the immediate question that sprung into my mind, a question that I asked of several red-faced priests in my congregation, was this: After 17 years of smiling and nodding and "believing," why does the Church require that my "faith" be called into question? The simple cop-out is that the Church realizes that what it is doing is reprehensible, and, acting for once with good intentions, tries to save a few level-minded souls before they are sent to the mass slaughter of the minds. But that's only the effect, not the cause. At least that was the effect for me. So what is the cause of this questioning? The brief answer (this post is long enough) is that it is simply a reaffirmation of what mommy and daddy instilled in the impressionable, naive minds of their children post-birth and ad-nausiam: God is good, and if you believe that and don't sin, you'll go to Heaven instead of Hell. The Church puts on a big show to demonstrate the truth behind this teaching, and essentially tells you to either accept it and be good, or deny it and be bad. Of course, they don't go so far as to say that if you choose to reject this teaching that you'll be labeled as bad forever, but they imply as much.

This behavior is not only acceptable in the US, but encouraged. As was demopnstrated by Rick Santorum, some people believe that family values follow from Christian-imposed moral standards. According to him and like-minded individuals, homosexual parenting ruins the over-valued family structure, a structure which has already proven antiquated and amorphous. Anti-homosexual laws and bans have been in place since the time of the Puritans, who quoted such bigoted chapters in the bible as Leviticus 18 and Genesis 19 as the infallible word of God, and therefore the only Law that man could obey as the Creation of God. And it stuck, primarily because one generation indoctrinated another, and that generation indoctrinated the next, and so on and so on. And look where it's gotten us: We are a nation run by a set of laws that are religious in nature, when they are not blatantly class-biased. Our Pledge of Alliegance includes God. Our money declares that all Americans trust God. It's all due to indoctrination.

What the woman in Belgium did was no worse than what is going on in the US, or at least not in a big-picture kind of way. Her sect of Christianity is extreme, but Catholics still preach to others. Fundies still preach to strangers on street corners. Children sitll blindly follow and think that the Lamb of God is Jesus' pet sheep. And it will continue to be this way ad nauseam, simply because there's not a damned thing that we can do to stop it. These people are protected. How nauseating.