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Thirdfain wrote:then how come Luke, Vader, Obi Wan, and all the other Jedi we see show the same general incompotence?

*shruggs*
How should i know?

I'm just saying that if Darth Maul was deliberatly fighting below his level, then either he is a far more talented fighter then the others, or they too are "fighting below their level."

Thirdfain wrote:then how come Luke, Vader, Obi Wan, and all the other Jedi we see show the same general incompotence?

Incompetence?

As someone earlier said, there is no point in protecting your entire body, when you already know where the enemy will strike.

If a Jedi fought a swordsman, he would just Force-push the guy into the closest wall and fillet him.

Absolutly. I never said differently.

What I am saying, is:

Jedi rely on their force powers to make themselves potent fighters. Without them, they would have limited grasp of how to actually wield and fight with their weapons.

In a Ysalimiri field, any Jedi unprotected by Character Shields would be defeated by your average American high school fencer.

Thirdfain wrote:Absolutly. I never said differently.

What I am saying, is:

Jedi rely on their force powers to make themselves potent fighters. Without them, they would have limited grasp of how to actually wield and fight with their weapons.

In a Ysalimiri field, any Jedi unprotected by Character Shields would be defeated by your average American high school fencer.

Depends on the Jedi. Without the Force, Dooku is still pretty much unbeatable.

Depends on the Jedi. Without the Force, Dooku is still pretty much unbeatable.

Did you SEE him? did you WATCH him? My GOD, Dooku is a fucking awful fighter. Without his force powers, the 13 year old minifencers could probably take him!

MrAnderson wrote:people who are either skilled in fencing or kendo and they quite often rip into the sword play from the various Wars movies.

They point out huge holes in a Jedi's fighting style or brag about how one of two real swordsmen could kill Darth Maul in mere moments.

Why do I get the sense that this thread was addressed precisely to Thirdfain?

Why do I get the sense that this thread was addressed precisely to Thirdfain?

Say what you will. On-screen evidence still points to a Jedi order which relies almost exculsively on the Force in combat. Without their force powers, the flashy, overconfident style favored by the Jedi, which closely mirror's a movie's portrayal of sword combat designed to look cool, would prove worthless against an opponent trained in the use of their weapon.

Thirdfain wrote:

Why do I get the sense that this thread was addressed precisely to Thirdfain?

Say what you will. On-screen evidence still points to a Jedi order which relies almost exculsively on the Force in combat. Without their force powers, the flashy, overconfident style favored by the Jedi, which closely mirror's a movie's portrayal of sword combat designed to look cool, would prove worthless against an opponent trained in the use of their weapon.

I agree, I just found it ironic that the individual winning an argument in this thread was arguably the target of the original assertion in the first place.

Thirdfain wrote:

Depends on the Jedi. Without the Force, Dooku is still pretty much unbeatable.

Did you SEE him? did you WATCH him? My GOD, Dooku is a fucking awful fighter. Without his force powers, the 13 year old minifencers could probably take him!

Fine. Point conceeded.

Your argument is irrelevant however, as there are no ysalamiri on this planet. A Jedi would never be without his/her Force powers.

Thirdfain wrote:

Why do I get the sense that this thread was addressed precisely to Thirdfain?

Say what you will. On-screen evidence still points to a Jedi order which relies almost exculsively on the Force in combat. Without their force powers, the flashy, overconfident style favored by the Jedi, which closely mirror's a movie's portrayal of sword combat designed to look cool, would prove worthless against an opponent trained in the use of their weapon.

Evidence of the over confidence bit can be seen at http://www.synicon.com.au/sw/ls/sabres.htm#index when it talks about Obi Wan in Episode I, it says that Darth Mauls kick to the face was out of contempt for his flashieness and the twirling, but that isn't to say he's a good warrior.
Saying that they're over confident is a contradiction, is they're confident it implies that they are skilled and that they know what they're doing...

And why is it we are assuming that the Force is not causing the crappy fighting we're seeing? We have canon proof from the AOTC novelization that not only did Anakin use the Force to physically impede Dooku's manuverability in combat, but Yoda actually immobilized him in the Force - and Dooku only escaped by distracting him into saving Anakin and Obi-Wan from the falling machinery.

I would like to know what sort of fighter would be able to fight well with their mobility restricted.

Unless there is some example where we have SEEN a lightsaber duel that was purely physical, I question the conclusion.

(Also, whose opinion are we going by insofar as the skill of the fighters are concerned? Is it someone who has actually practiced swordfighting of some kind seriously? I know Robert Brown has, and his commentary might very well carry weight - I havent read it in ages so I can't say, but I'm not going to take a subjective impression as fact. )

Connor MacLeod wrote:Unless there is some example where we have SEEN a lightsaber duel that was purely physical, I question the conclusion.

ESB: Han vs. the tauntaun. Solo ripped that thing a new one.

-- Joe Momma

Uh, yeah, the Tauntaun had a lightsaber, it was just hidden under its saddle. It was in the Special Edition.

Just because Jedi don't wield lightsabres the way you'd wield a sword does not make how they fight wrong. The two weapons are similar, but not identical. Lightsabre blades are insubstantial, unlike sword blades, so either they could require a completely different style than what you use with a sword, or the Jedi and the Sith teach a completely different style, which works. Yes, they use the Force a lot, but why must they be utterly dependent on it? Surely it would be stupid not to train Jedi to deal with situations in which the have no access to the Force, or where they must fight an opponent who is a better Force user than themselves. As for the openings they leave in a fight, could they not be intentional, trying to make the opponent open himself up to a counterattack? Isn't it smart to make yourself look stupid and sloppy when you aren't?

Joe Momma wrote:

Connor MacLeod wrote:Unless there is some example where we have SEEN a lightsaber duel that was purely physical, I question the conclusion.

ESB: Han vs. the tauntaun. Solo ripped that thing a new one.

-- Joe Momma

Uh, yeah, the Tauntaun had a lightsaber, it was just hidden under its saddle. It was in the Special Edition.

Yeah, that damn Special Edition, has to ruin everything doesn't it. Greedo shooting first, tauntaun with a lightsabre *sigh* where will it end?
Next we'll find out that, if we look close enough, there was another wave of Ewoks if the other got wiped out of the second stormtrooper on the grassy knowle...

Thirdfain wrote:then how come Luke, Vader, Obi Wan, and all the other Jedi we see show the same general incompotence?

Cause you are clueless?

How many times does it have to be said. A hole in a Jedi's defences is not a hole at all. It is him IGNORING that area because the Force has told him he can.

You CANNOT take a swordsman who uses Precog and compare him to az standard swordsman. It is impossible. Everything about how a Jedi fights is guided by his use of the force. It affects how he holds his weapon. Where he swings it, it determines how he stands. Everything about a Jedi in a duel is affected by the near complete for-knowledge he has of his opponents attacks.

Thirdfain wrote:

Why do I get the sense that this thread was addressed precisely to Thirdfain?

Say what you will. On-screen evidence still points to a Jedi order which relies almost exculsively on the Force in combat. Without their force powers, the flashy, overconfident style favored by the Jedi, which closely mirror's a movie's portrayal of sword combat designed to look cool, would prove worthless against an opponent trained in the use of their weapon.

WRONG!!!!

Your being dense.


IF you remove a Jedi's pre-cog ability what makes you think they will fight the same way? If a fencer fights someone purely by tournament rules one day and the next day while sparing he realizes his opponent at the gym is REALLY trying to hurt him is he going to fence the same way?

Of course not. That would be assuming that the fencer is a complete fucking moron.

So why the fuck do you think a Jedi would continue to fight in a style that is completely dependent on using the force when he does not have the force available to him.


Basically your entire arguement is a strawman and pointless. Until we see ON-SCREEN what a Jedi looks like fighting WITHOUT the Force you cannot in any way say who could or could not defeat them.

Thirdfain wrote:Absolutly. I never said differently.

In a Ysalimiri field, any Jedi unprotected by Character Shields would be defeated by your average American high school fencer.

Please do tell me where you have seen this anywhere so that you can make this assertion.

Oh wait you havnt. You are pulling it out of your ass.

Asking how a Jedi would fight without his Force precog is like asking how a regular swordsman would fight if he were rendered fucking blind. It's an obvious attempt to deliberately cripple someone in order to "prove" he's not a good swordsman in his normal state.

Darth Wong wrote:Asking how a Jedi would fight without his Force precog is like asking how a regular swordsman would fight if he were rendered fucking blind. It's an obvious attempt to deliberately cripple someone in order to "prove" he's not a good swordsman in his normal state.

More than that. It is an impossible discussion. Every Jedi we have seen onscreen has used the force. Since we have never seen a Jedi fighting without the force we do not know what level of skill they possess or what fighting style they would use.

Now if a Jedi was denied access to the force and yet was required to fight using his force focused style then yes obviously he would lose to most skilled fencers.

But then again if you force a fencer to pick up a claymore and then require him to wield it and fight with it using purely fencing techniques then obviously that fencer would lose to anyone who has any skill with the claymore. Would this mean the fencer was a lousy swrdsman?

No it means you have limited what he can do down to a level of utter stupidity to make your point and all you have accomplished is to make yourself look stupid.

Alright, what it comes down to is: Jedi fight well, that's granted, but it is due to their ability to use precog and improved reflexes. They use these to make up for a fighting style which is exceedingly inefficient- they make huge, wild swings, massive, awful parries, and flashy, worthless jumps and spins. Their speed and precog allows them to pull it off, but if they were to drop the bullshit, and learn some of the basic tenets not just of fencing, but of all martial arts, then they would perform far better.


I will go pick up a TPM and a TESB DVD, and write up a paper on this, screenshots and everything, dissecting Jedi fighting styles. I have my crusade, now!

Thirdfain wrote:Alright, what it comes down to is: Jedi fight well, that's granted, but it is due to their ability to use precog and improved reflexes. They use these to make up for a fighting style which is exceedingly inefficient- they make huge, wild swings, massive, awful parries, and flashy, worthless jumps and spins. Their speed and precog allows them to pull it off, but if they were to drop the bullshit, and learn some of the basic tenets not just of fencing, but of all martial arts, then they would perform far better.


I will go pick up a TPM and a TESB DVD, and write up a paper on this, screenshots and everything, dissecting Jedi fighting styles. I have my crusade, now!

Do whatever you want. You will still be wrong.

Since we have never seen a Jedi fight without the Force we cannot say how much of their fighting style is skil, how much is style, how much is being with the Force, etc.

The Force is an impossible variable here. You cannot quantify it so you cannot say anything about Jedi truly and their swordfighting skills.

Since we have never seen a Jedi fight without the Force we cannot say how much of their fighting style is skil, how much is style, how much is being with the Force, etc.

The Force is an impossible variable here. You cannot quantify it so you cannot say anything about Jedi truly and their swordfighting skills.

False. The Force tells a jedi where his enemy will attack him, and gives him the agility to respond to that attack. It is up to the Jedi to chose to respond to the information the the Force gives him, with the reflexes the Force gives him.

Jedi have repeatedly been shown to take the most circuitous, foolish route to accomplish their "goals." They make massive, wild swings- odd, because their weapon does not rely on kinetic energy to do damage- they make huge, fantastic parries which take them an inordinate amount of time. If it wasn't for their ability to see the future, the fighting style they use would be quite worthless.

It's a moot point of course, since Jedi CAN see the future. My point remains- Jedi rely on their force powers to allow them to succeed in combat.

Thirdfain wrote:

It's a moot point of course, since Jedi CAN see the future. My point remains- Jedi rely on their force powers to allow them to succeed in combat.

Its not a moot point. You cannot say the Jedi rely on the Force and by an extension have no skill without it.

Your critiques of their style also don't take into account the weapon they are using. A lightsaber has a blade with no mass. A twirl of the blade takes no real effort, builds no momentum and thus takes no effort to stop.

Personally I see the sweaping action with the lightsaber an indication of some of their training. A Jedi 90% of the time doesnt fight another saber wielder. Most of the time they cut down regular foes which means blocking blaster bolt. A jedi trained purely as a fencer would have a problem with this. Standing there blade pointed forward makes blocking bolts more effort.

Finally you forget a hit from a lightsaber no matter how casual will hurt and do damage. So any time a Jedi casually twirls his lightsaber at his side he is creating a wall of energy that no one is going to attempt to move through to get the Jedi. So by doing this a Jedi can protect a flank and depending on how far forward the saber is being held he may be projecting that wall forward a bit and thus limiting his foes choices for moving.


Am I making this up? Of course I am. But I am doing it to prove a point. We are talking about a weapon unlike any we have ever seen using a combat style we cannot fully comprehend since a good portion of it is completely invisible to us.

With those two facts it becomes obvious to all that you cannot compare a Jedi to any sort of standard swordsman and make any kind of accurate statements. It is simple apples to oranges.

Thirdfain wrote: False. The Force tells a jedi where his enemy will attack him, and gives him the agility to respond to that attack. It is up to the Jedi to chose to respond to the information the the Force gives him, with the reflexes the Force gives him.

Wrong, the Force in fact controls and GUIDES the actions. You seem to neglect the notion that trust in the Force is a fundamental aspect to being able to USE it. (Ex: ANH, when Obi-Wan is teaching Luke inside the Falcon.)

Jedi have repeatedly been shown to take the most circuitous, foolish route to accomplish their "goals." They make massive, wild swings- odd, because their weapon does not rely on kinetic energy to do damage- they make huge, fantastic parries which take them an inordinate amount of time. If it wasn't for their ability to see the future, the fighting style they use would be quite worthless.

You assume they would use the same style without the Force as with. For that matter, you seem to think Jedi all use the same fighting style.

By the way, it would be nice for oyu to cite "examples" of the so called "foolish, circuitous routes" since you seem to so often refer to them. Burden of proof and all that.

It's a moot point of course, since Jedi CAN see the future. My point remains- Jedi rely on their force powers to allow them to succeed in combat.

Only if we make the same silly assumptions you do.