StarDestroyer.Net BBS

The Duchess of Zeon wrote:
(Well, as long as we get a batch from a good plant.)

Izhvesk is the only Russian factory that builds AK-74s. You don't really need to worry about bad workmanship if it's got the Izhvesk stamp on it. Maybe if it was some Chinese POS AK clone (notoriously bad quality).

An AK-74M in 5.45x39mm or AK-101 in 5.56x45mm should fit the bill perfectly.

Vympel wrote:
Izhvesk is the only Russian factory that builds AK-74s. You don't really need to worry about bad workmanship if it's got the Izhvesk stamp on it. Maybe if it was some Chinese POS AK clone (notoriously bad quality).

Not to mention the ammo, quite seriously Bosnia makes better ammunition then China.

Sea Skimmer wrote:

Patrick Ogaard wrote:
2. Everyone starts out with a basic rifle and pistol set, something designed as a compromise that everyone is more or less unhappy with. I'd suggest an AR-15 or Ruger Ranch Rifle, both of which are semiautomatic 5.56mm weapons that can take magazines holding up to 30 rounds apiece.

Neither will reliably last under these conditions without a steady supply of cleaning kits and oil.

I'd have reasonable confidence in the Ranch Rifle if it's the stainless model with steel-core composite furniture. Ultimately, the action is just a direct adaptation of the Garand.

As for oil and cleaning kits, my modification of / expansion on the specifications of the scenario would in fact include a basic supply of oil, as well as cleaning and repair kits (or at least I hope I included the repair/tools portion). Certainly some spare springs would be absolutely required.

Even in the space of 20 years I doubt that it will be practical to set up a cottage industry to churn out masses of suitable boxer-primed cartridges with smokeless propellant. The primary aim would really have to be to simultaneously employ the rapid fire rifles as effectively as possible while conserving ammunition, and to develop locally produced replacements. Percussion weapons with blackpowder cartridges should be well within the available technological capabilities of dwarf, elf and human in Middle Earth.

The personnel not actively engaged in combat operations would eventually do well enough with a cap-and-ball .44 (or even .50) revolver (or brace of rolling block single shot pistols) and matching .50 rolling block single shot rifle. That way, the folks on the sharp edge of the sword would be able to make use of the ammunition the support personnel are not using.

On the other hand, if the majority is in favor of the AK-74, no harm no foul. I'd just suggest locking the weapons on semiauto only. A thousand rounds per gun will go very, very quickly otherwise.

I think the most important job will be useing modern training techniques to turn Gondorian and Rohhirrim warriors into trained, professional soldiers.

Weapons are of secondary importance to creating a solid core of well-trained, disciplined native troops- and it will be absolutly necessary to have semimodern weapons we can manufacture with native gear, and that means simple firearms.

Perhaps revoler-action black powder rifles in bulk, a few heavy machine guns, perhaps some flamethrowers and high explosives (nice terror weapons, and we'll need to be clearing out some caverns) and a few modern rifles and ammo for our own people.

Thirdfain wrote:I think the most important job will be useing modern training techniques to turn Gondorian and Rohhirrim warriors into trained, professional soldiers.

Weapons are of secondary importance to creating a solid core of well-trained, disciplined native troops- and it will be absolutly necessary to have semimodern weapons we can manufacture with native gear, and that means simple firearms.

Perhaps revoler-action black powder rifles in bulk, a few heavy machine guns, perhaps some flamethrowers and high explosives (nice terror weapons, and we'll need to be clearing out some caverns) and a few modern rifles and ammo for our own people.

Again, the fact is we don't have the huge chemistry set or massive industrial base of the first scenario, we have to find a new way of going about this. Sure we can rely on our technological and scientific knowledge, but we have to find a way to apply it.

which corresponds with what I said- we use the native resources. Discipline the Middle Earth soldiers, and we will increase their effectiveness tenfold- then give them primitive guns, the likes of which we can manufacture with limited resources and local labor, and we will have a froce which can not be denied. Add to that a small amount of explosives, flamethrowers, and other useful "tricks," we can assure victory.

Thirdfain wrote:which corresponds with what I said- we use the native resources. Discipline the Middle Earth soldiers, and we will increase their effectiveness tenfold- then give them primitive guns, the likes of which we can manufacture with limited resources and local labor, and we will have a froce which can not be denied. Add to that a small amount of explosives, flamethrowers, and other useful "tricks," we can assure victory.

How do you intend to manufacture weapons? We have a basic machine shop and the armoury. It will do for repairs, but mass-fabrication? Using what raw materials? How are you going to process them?

How do you intend to manufacture weapons? We have a basic machine shop and the armoury. It will do for repairs, but mass-fabrication? Using what raw materials? How are you going to process them?

We have two entire nations, complete with midievel industries like smithys and mining. We get our raw materials from Gondor and Rohan.

The art of gunsmithing can be taught- and simple arquebuses are not hard to design and build, even with the limited resources available.

If Gondor can manufacture chainmail for the thousands of men in the armies of Gondor, then they can manufacture simple guns.

Thirdfain wrote: We have two entire nations, complete with midievel industries like smithys and mining. We get our raw materials from Gondor and Rohan.

Wonderful. HOW? What are we going to trade? Technology? How are you going to convince them to trust us? You're being just a touch idealistic here. Whats to stop Rohan just conquering us and taking it for themselves?

The art of gunsmithing can be taught- and simple arquebuses are not hard to design and build, even with the limited resources available.

Sure, but look at point one, how are you going to OBTAIN all this.

If Gondor can manufacture chainmail for the thousands of men in the armies of Gondor, then they can manufacture simple guns.

Why would they though?

weemadando wrote:Wonderful. HOW? What are we going to trade? Technology? How are you going to convince them to trust us? You're being just a touch idealistic here. Whats to stop Rohan just conquering us and taking it for themselves?

The guns would certainly help.

Certainly though, in a time where mistrust is running rampant through Middle Earth, no one's going to just welcome complete strangers with marvelous technology to have good intentions.

Durandal wrote: The guns would certainly help.

Certainly though, in a time where mistrust is running rampant through Middle Earth, no one's going to just welcome complete strangers with marvelous technology to have good intentions.

Finding a way to convince them of our good intentions is going to be rather important, one thinks. If we succeed, this obviously would allow us to use mass-labour to compensate for other deficiencies in resources...

Wee madando, it doesn't matter how we arrange to get their support- what matters is that we do. No matter how well we are equipped, 2-3 hundred simply can't defeat the hundreds of thousands of soldiers it wil be necessary to defeat.

We would gain their trust by showing them our weapons. We would be seen as wizards- hell, all Gandalf does is toss around fireworks, and he is
suddenly well resoected. They could conquer us, and what would they have? A few hundred guns they don't know how to maintain or use, and no way to make more.

This would make a good ongoing story-line. We could call it "Hearts and minds"

<Breathes life into thread>

This thread cannot die!

Fine then lets vote on rifles and anything else in dispute and then start. I'm actually favoring a semi auto only FAL now, will need decent armor and bayonets for close combat.

Sea Skimmer wrote:Fine then lets vote on rifles and anything else in dispute and then start. I'm actually favoring a semi auto only FAL now, will need decent armor and bayonets for close combat.

Yay for the semi-auto FAL!

Sea Skimmer wrote:Fine then lets vote on rifles and anything else in dispute and then start. I'm actually favoring a semi auto only FAL now, will need decent armor and bayonets for close combat.

My personal preference would be for the G3 rifle or the M14, but a semi-auto FAL seems a good enough choice. If the majority goes for the semi-auto FAL, good enough for me.

For armor, how about my idea from earlier in the thread?

A knee-length, short-sleeved leather jack, double-breasted and with sewn in mail or lamellar material between two layers of leather would be a good thing to have as standard issue. Two layers of leather, a canvas liner and a layer of metal mesh would be quite adequate protection for most purposes. The double-breasted construction would effectively double the protection offered to the front. Add four slits, for sitting on chairs and riding on horseback, below the waist, and you're in business. Just remember not to make the thing too bulky to fit combat webbing over. An inside pocket or three on the breast might be included to insert steel plates if things should get really hairy.

Ankle to shin demigreaves of steel or even hardened leather, plus forearm protection of the same materials, and all you need is a helmet to complete your ensemble. The demigreaves and forearm protectors would not provide armor coverage to the back of the legs or the insides of the forearms, to prevent excessive weight. Soldiers inevitably "lose" stuff that weighs too much, even food and water.

For less demanding tasks, a flak jacket version of the above jack would work well enough: two layers of leather, buckles down the side, metal mesh sandwiched between the layers of leather, and coverage from collar bone to waist, with no double layer to the front. Much less weight, but enough protection for most purposes if you remember to bring an open-face helmet.

The armor could be easily produced with modern capabilities, but could also be easily repaired or replaced by local artisans. Flak jackets are not going to be a good choice.

In addition to the bayonet, and in addition to the combat knife that everyone had best have in addition to the bayonet, a standard machete might come in handy as initial issue. It's hardly a real sword, but it will do in a pinch, provides service as a tool, and could be replaced eventually by a proper sword by those so inclined.