Moderator: Vympel
Death from the Sea wrote:
More Romulan scientists does not mean more brain power, or the ability to miraculously comprehend something that has eluded them thus far. While two minds are better than one and four better than two; the Romulans using more scientists does not make each Romulan smarter.
And yet, reserch groups with more staff and funding are generally more productive, and want more funding and more staff. When was the last time you saw chancer reseach standing on the corner saying "SLASH OUR FUNDS, FIRE OUR RESEARCHES, WE'LL DO BETTER THAT WAY!"MrAnderson wrote:Actually I believe the opposite is true. Larger groups as a rule move slower and are less innovative than smaller groups. Too many cooks and that sort of thing.
How do you know they had the concept before Soran? He has been plotting to get back to the Nexus since Kirk's death. If the Romulans have been trying to make trilithium a weapon for that long and have been unable to stabilize it much less figure out how to make it into a weapon, how are they going to do it now? Magic?NecronLord wrote:They had the concept and trilithium before him remember...
Spreading the workload is not going to magically make your comprehension of something happen.Hah. I think you'll find that a project with 2362 scientists working on it will have more brain power than one with 2. They don't need to make each romulan smarter, it's called spreading the workload.
I don't recall him wanting to wipe out Romulus, if he did want to then why not do it before you chase off after the Ent-E? What kind of sense does it make to overthrow the Govt. and sieze the planet just to destroy it. If anything he would relocate the Romulans to Remus mines to make them suffer.And if you wanted to wipe out say... Romulus?
Well you were the one who said the Tal-Shiar had the tech, how can they have the tech when they no longer exist?The Tal-Shiar was effectively wiped out in the DS9 episode "The Die is Cast" along with the Obsidian Order.And?
Right, because the Romulans seeking his help and giving him a ship that you say he couldn't have made would be sooooo degrading. Come on he was trying to prove how much of a great leader he was and you do forget he had allies in the Romulan govt and Romulan navy to help keep it secret from the others.Because he want's to make the Remans look good.
You didn't notice how the Romulans he was ordering around didn't like it too much, they wanted a govt. change but not neccessarily him in the Praetor's chair.Because he's the Praetor, and also the one who will lead you to victory over your enemies?
In the Dominion War? No. Definitely not. I've got the DS9 transcripts. I don't remember anything about them fighting a war on multiple fronts.CDiehl wrote:NecronLord is right. The Romulans very likely attacked from another direction during the war (never saw it, only heard of it secondhand).
I don't think they held back the bulk of their assets. They struck the Cardassians very hard from the get-go, as we're told near the end of "In the Pale Moonlight." They were the ones that liberated a Dominion-occupied Betazed. And Odo tells us that they were "in no shape to wage war on anyone." If he's right--and we have no reason to believe otherwise--the Romulans must have committed significant forces to battling the Dominion. (If you're in no shape to fight, that means you've taken serious losses, the majority of which would've been on the front lines.)However, nothing was said or shown that I remember to indicate they did much more in that direction. They might have taken a poke at Cardassia, sent a token fleet to join the allied fleet, and held back the bulk of their forces.
But if they broke their treaty with the Dominion, and the Jem'Hadar were ultimately victorious against the UFP-KE Alliance, the Romulans would be up shit creek sans paddle. Alone, they didn't have the strength to fight the Dominion for very long, especially when one adds in the relatively fresh Breen fleet.I don't picture the Romulans caring a great deal if the Klingons or the Federation win or lose against the Dominion, as long as they los a bunch of ships in the process.
That's fair.Also, of all the times the Romulans have ever been shown on Star Trek, they are rarely shown sending more than a few ships or people into a situation. I think an argument can be made from what is shown, that they may not have a large fleet to begin with, and have to rely on intimidation to prevail in most situations. Also, an argument can be made that they have a lot of ships, and don't use them unless they have to, and did not consider saving the Federation's and the Klingons' bacon a worthy cause. I don't know which argument is right, but from what I've seen, I consider them to be reasonable.
That's on the right trackAs for the idea of using the Scimitar to waste Qo'NoS, hey, if they still have a ship like that available (preferrably if they have several), go for it. Having not seen Nemesis, I am going to assume the Scimitar was a prototype that took a long time to make, and got destroyed by the Enterprise.
The thing about the Scimitar is that it's probably what we call "lost tech." As previously noted, the thing seemed to incorporate a very large percentage of stolen Jem'Hadar technology in its design. As you note, it was also built around a superweapon that's not only dangerous, but the Romulans now know is really not worth the expense (seeing as how three ships managed to defeat Scimitar and all).Even if the Enterprise was also destroyed in the process, I would not count on the Klingons not kamikaze-ing a new Scimitar to save Qo'NoS. Of course, I also would not build an invasion plan around deploying a superweapon, and especially not one I don't have in stock. My ideas of how each side would attack the other were based on both sides having only conventional forces available to them.
Wouldn't multiple fronts be implied by the fact that at the end if In The Pale Moonlight there is a reference to stations being destroyed along the Romulan border? Since the treaty only allowed for them to pass through Romulan space, the stations must be somehwere where Dominion space borders with that of the Romulans.seanrobertson wrote:In the Dominion War? No. Definitely not. I've got the DS9 transcripts. I don't remember anything about them fighting a war on multiple fronts.
Whilst I'm not sure to what you're referring, before they officially declared war there was a NAP in place.However, nothing was said or shown that I remember to indicate they did much more in that direction. They might have taken a poke at Cardassia, sent a token fleet to join the allied fleet, and held back the bulk of their forces.
Whilst they may have committed serious forces to the war effort, it has been shown that not all ships and personell got as beaten up and killed as the Klingons and Federation, as the opening scene in "Inter Arma..." shows.I don't think they held back the bulk of their assets. They struck the Cardassians very hard from the get-go, as we're told near the end of "In the Pale Moonlight." They were the ones that liberated a Dominion-occupied Betazed. And Odo tells us that they were "in no shape to wage war on anyone." If he's right--and we have no reason to believe otherwise--the Romulans must have committed significant forces to battling the Dominion. (If you're in no shape to fight, that means you've taken serious losses, the majority of which would've been on the front lines.)
Perhaps they were holding back so that the Federation and Klingons would get beaten up, yet still win so the Romulans could be the most powerful in the AQ.3--After the Romulans joined the fight, significantly holding back would be moronic: A. Their allies would know this was the case, and when it came time to divide up the spoils of war, the Romulans could be justifiably shafted; B. The Dominion was pushing the Alliance very hard in the first place. If the Romulans held back and let the UFP-KE get whacked, they would soon be standing alone against an enemy which can build ships and breed soldiers at a dizzying rate--an enemy which still has Breen [and potentially, Cardassian] allies. Even if the Dominion "Axis" was depleted in defeating the UFP-KE, 3 to 1 odds still means the Romulans lose horrificially, especially when the Dominion Proper is itself more than a match for any single Alpha/Beta Quadrant power.
With that kind of strength, they could easily have taken on the Federation OR Klingons individually before the latter two signed their mutual defense pact (which evidently post-dates the Federation-Cardassian War, given the lack of Klingon involvement).
Yes. They apparently do share a border. But I don't know that the stations destroyed were necessarily along the Romulan border:Gandalf wrote: Wouldn't multiple fronts be implied by the fact that at the end if In The Pale Moonlight there is a reference to stations being destroyed along the Romulan border? Since the treaty only allowed for them to pass through Romulan space, the stations must be somehwere where Dominion space borders with that of the Romulans.
That's right.Whilst I'm not sure to what you're referring, before they officially declared
war there was a NAP in place.
I don't remember the opening scene. The script indicates that it was an exchange between Bashir and Garak, but then again, the script says squat about those ~dozen Warbirds in orbit of Romulus upon the Bellerophon's arrival.Whilst they may have committed serious forces to the war effort, it has been shown that not all ships and personell got as beaten up and killed as the Klingons and Federation, as the opening scene in "Inter Arma..." shows.
Yes, a definite possibility. Still, it seems a bit...risky, to say the least, since they didn't really know victory was assured. The combined three were barely winning when the Breen entered the fray, which then left the Klingons shouldering the burden alone for a time. If there was ever a time for the Romulans to step things up, that would've been it.Perhaps they were holding back so that the Federation and Klingons would get beaten up, yet still win so the Romulans could be the most powerful in the AQ.
I know the mutual defense pact kept them back, but you'd think that if their fleet, presumably made up almost entirely of said mighty Warbirds, was anywhere near as large as the Klingons', for instance, even the combined might of the Federation and Klingons might not be much of a threat. (That treats certain things, like the likelihood of a multi-front war, lightly, though.)The Federation Klingon Alliance kept them in hold. And various TM's and such put a D'deridex class Warbird up there with a GCS.
Yes. The "Betreka Nebula Incident." Garak says it was over "ages ago," and that relations between the Klingons and Cardassians had been "amicable," hence his surprise that the Klingons would attack him:In Way of The Warrior, Garak describes a "skirmish" that lasts 17 years.
Unfortunatly, reality runs contrary to your opinions. Larger, well funded research teams make discoveries faster. Accept it.Death from the Sea wrote:Spreading the workload is not going to magically make your comprehension of something happen.Hah. I think you'll find that a project with 2362 scientists working on it will have more brain power than one with 2. They don't need to make each romulan smarter, it's called spreading the workload.
Not to sound rude but I highly doubt that, as the Dominion can sense cloaks, and decloaking in a battle isnt a good ideaevilcat4000 wrote:I think the best explanation for the lack of Romulan ships seen onscreen in DS9 was that they remained cloaked. The Romulans after all love to use stealthy techniques. They may not have decided to uncloak any more ships than absolutely necessary to win, thereby ensuring that they suffer the least losses among the allies.
And? America stayed out of WW2 until attacked, didn't make them weakDarth Wong wrote:
- They immediately capitulated to the Dominion even though they had every reason to suspect that the Dominion would eventually turn on them (you don't try to wipe out someone's homeworld and expect no hard feelings).
See example above
[*]They only entered the war when they felt they had no choice, and that Dominion attack was imminent.
When was this? In the first day of the war they went on the offensive.
[*]They bragged about destroying Dominion forces piecemeal as they tried to breach Romulan territory, but they were surprisingly reluctant to go offensive. The defender normally has a tactical advantage which may allow him to compensate for inferior numbers, particularly in this case where he can use cloaking devices.
Romulan warbirds are slower than galaxies, the ent-e is faster, prehaps those were the only ships fast enough to catch them? Chances are the Valdore fits the role of fast interceptor, possibly designed for running down spies and enemy scouts. A very fast picket as the culture would call it.
[*]In Nemesis, the Romulan Empire's military chiefs of staff decided to stop Shinzon and were unable to provide more than two warships to do the job.
He had the support of the navy remember.
[*]Also from Nemesis, the Romulan Empire was conquered by Shinzon, whose forces appeared to consist solely of a single battleship. As powerful as the Scimitar was, it is certainly no match for giant fleets of thousands of warships. Their homefront forces must be surprisingly weak, which does not bode well for the rest of their forces.
And? This doesn't prove much. The same could be said of the Klingons.
[*]The Romulans have cloaking devices which could easily be used to make it appear as if they have more ships than they really do (you can never get a solid ship count, and one ship which decloaks ten times at strategic intervals might be mistaken for ten ships).
Picard was able to defeat the best swordsman in northern england in another Q simulation. He would be slaughtered in reality.
[*]In "All Good Things", we heard that the Klingons annexed the Romulans. Granted, that was an alternate future, but it must not be ridiculously implausible or it would be hard to imagine how an alternate timeline would produce such an outcome.[/list]
You have a good point there, I may be wrong. Ships lack shields when cloaked and when decloaking a few seconds are need for the shields to come back online leaving it volunerable for a short period. So decloaking in the midst of a battle may be a bad idea. That might explain why the Romulan Warbirds travelled with the allied fleet uncloaked.Gandalf wrote:Not to sound rude but I highly doubt that, as the Dominion can sense cloaks, and decloaking in a battle isnt a good ideaevilcat4000 wrote:I think the best explanation for the lack of Romulan ships seen onscreen in DS9 was that they remained cloaked. The Romulans after all love to use stealthy techniques. They may not have decided to uncloak any more ships than absolutely necessary to win, thereby ensuring that they suffer the least losses among the allies.
...CaptainChewbacca wrote:If there was a war, the Klingons would make for a blitzkrieg, and proceed to fuck me up the ass with bat'leths and
pain sticks.
That's certainly true, but the U.S. stayed out of the war for different reasons. Roosevelt didn't immediately capitulate to the Axis to avoid war, but the Romulans bent over backwards to avoid fighting the Dominion. They were even willing to overlook violation of their borders so long as they didn't get wailed on.NecronLord wrote: And? America stayed out of WW2 until attacked, didn't make them weak
Yes.When was this? In the first day of the war they went on the offensive.
That has potential. I would propose, however, that even with slower ships, a huge Romulan fleet should've been able to send more than two warships before the Scimitar was finally blown up.Romulan warbirds are slower than galaxies, the ent-e is faster, prehaps those were the only ships fast enough to catch them? Chances are the Valdore fits the role of fast interceptor, possibly designed for running down spies and enemy scouts. A very fast picket as the culture would call it.
Good point.He had the support of the navy remember.
Yes. The Klingons are even known to cloak-recloak ships to make precise counts difficult ("WoTW").The same could be said of the Klingons.
Do we know the Dominion War didn't happen?Picard was able to defeat the best swordsman in northern england in another Q simulation. He would be slaughtered in reality.
Also, the klingons in that reality had made some hefty tech advances which they have yet to develop in the series continuity. And of course, the dominion war never happened in that reality, which would skew things.
Ah yes, but they were letting them violate their territory to attack the feds. What a shame that would be...seanrobertson wrote:That's certainly true, but the U.S. stayed out of the war for different reasons. Roosevelt didn't immediately capitulate to the Axis to avoid war, but the Romulans bent over backwards to avoid fighting the Dominion. They were even willing to overlook violation of their borders so long as they didn't get wailed on.
Well, why make a fuss when it suits your own machiavellian purposes?
He was probably thinking of how the Jem'Hadar would move through Romulan territory to strike at Federation assets which, as noted above, the Romulans were quick to overlook.
True enough. But then again, we know subspace signals take time to propogate, the rest of the fleet may have been planning to assemble near the fed fleet or ambush the Schem on the way.
That has potential. I would propose, however, that even with slower ships, a huge Romulan fleet should've been able to send more than two warships before the Scimitar was finally blown up.
The E-E and Scimitar WERE, after all, still in Romulan territory or at the Neutral Zone, where the "bulk of the Romulan fleet is deployed" (paraphrase, "In the Pale Moonlight").
The Neutral Zone may well be huge, hundreds of ly long perhaps. Consequently, the density of ships in any given area might not be THAT significant, but two ships is still a bit...light
I'm fairly certain that those admirals in the beginning were on his side. They walk up and say that they should be nice to the Reamans. The senate laugh and then get garden gnomed. IMO that was a set up sequence of events.
Good point.
OTOH, did he have the fleet's support before he toppled the Senate? We know he had a handful of backers, any one of which might've had control of perhaps a single warship; e.g., Donatra.
I got the impression that the fleet only backed him after he was Praetor.
Well, not my concern then.
Then again, we've seen lots of Klingon ships onscreen at one time. And I don't think anyone suggested that the Klingons might have many more ships under cloak, simply hidden from our view. That appears to be what Mike was responding to.
There was no mention of it. In any case the tech implemented on the future ent was not even similar to that developed during the war. No armour for one.
Do we know the Dominion War didn't happen?
Well it's not outright impossible, if it were, they (the RSE) would have stomped them long ago. There is IMO usually a rough parity.
The main difference I see between "QPid" (AGH, the horror, the horror...) and "All Good Things" is that Picard, Troi, etc. instantly recognizedthat they were in some faked-up scenario. "AGT" was very much real to Picard, so he believed the Klingons could actually conquer the RSE.
Get garden gnomed...I LOVE it!NecronLord wrote:
I'm fairly certain that those admirals in the beginning were on his side. They walk up and say that they should be nice to the Reamans. The senate laugh and then get garden gnomed. IMO that was a set up sequence of events.
I don't think that the Breen are in a position to do much of anything since they were on the loosing side of the Dominon war. Then there is the whole they have to ask permission of the Founders since they are part of the Dominon now, and I don't think the founders would allow that.CDiehl wrote:Getting back to the main point, I think the treaty signed at the end of the Dominion War would give the victorious allies a lot of former Cardassian territory, since almost everyone in the known galaxy just took turns beating the Cardassians for the last few years. The Federation might have recovered the systems they gave up after the Cardassian War, so the Klingons and Romulans will take the rest of what's up for grabs. This provides a good backdrop for a Klingon-Romulan war, as both sides try to expand at Cardassia's expense. The Breen could also hop in, hoping to get for themselves what the Founders promised them right before the war ended.
Oh, as this thread isn't quite dead yet, and I only just noticed this. The Tal-Shiar are very much alive and well as of Inter Arma... Two seasons after TDiC.Death from the Sea wrote:Well you were the one who said the Tal-Shiar had the tech, how can they have the tech when they no longer exist?The Tal-Shiar was effectively wiped out in the DS9 episode "The Die is Cast" along with the Obsidian Order.And?
Ok so the Tal-Shiar survived TDiC. I still say that it is not a guarantee that the Romulans will figure out the trilithium tech. If anyone would it would be starfleet because they had the detailed scans from Data and LaForge tricorders plus the scans the Ent-D would have made herself of the missle being fired.NecronLord wrote:Oh, as this thread isn't quite dead yet, and I only just noticed this. The Tal-Shiar are very much alive and well as of Inter Arma... Two seasons after TDiC.Death from the Sea wrote:Well you were the one who said the Tal-Shiar had the tech, how can they have the tech when they no longer exist?The Tal-Shiar was effectively wiped out in the DS9 episode "The Die is Cast" along with the Obsidian Order.
Tricorders aren't that advanced. Those are somewhat different in that they are beyond Starfleets current tech levels. Trilithium torpedoes might be above the current tech level for Starfleet, but then it would be above the tch level for the Romulans too.NecronLord wrote:Yeah, just like the time they scanned an iconian portal with their tricorders and built their own.... Or the time they scanned a strange alien life form and knew everything about it.
Why make the plasma torpedoes? Kirk figured out how to counter them. Why don't Romulans employ them on their current ships? They are only good against things that can't run.As for being able to scan it as it moved, why haven't they produced any of those romulan plasma torpedoes yet? They scanned that.
Sensors don't tell you everything..