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Sea Skimmer wrote:I believe its being used in accompaniment with glass reinforced plastic, of which both the British and US Armies have built armored vehicles.

Ah. What's its protection expected to be like, relative to an Abrams?

Darth Wong wrote:

Sea Skimmer wrote:I believe its being used in accompaniment with glass reinforced plastic, of which both the British and US Armies have built armored vehicles.

Ah. What's its protection expected to be like, relative to an Abrams?

Its concidered a light tank as a buffer while you ship in the big guns to get the job done. Its suppost to be light enough to flown into a theater of battle.

The Tank has only taken 1 hit from a Abrams and the second hit penetrated. The advantage is that the penetating shell sticks into the hull rather than bounce around inside. Suposidly they will have patch kits for the armor that can be glued on to fill the holes to let you get the tank home.

Do you know what the test specs are on this glass-reinforced plastic substrate they're using?

Darth Wong wrote:Do you know what the test specs are on this glass-reinforced plastic substrate they're using?

Not right now but I can try and look it up for you. How well the armor/hull performs appears to be classified.

Darth Wong wrote:

Sea Skimmer wrote:I believe its being used in accompaniment with glass reinforced plastic, of which both the British and US Armies have built armored vehicles.

Ah. What's its protection expected to be like, relative to an Abrams?

Abrams can stop 125mm tank shells at anything but point blank. The British plastic AFV could take hits from its own gun, a 30mm Rarden which is a very good auto cannon and that’s a very good level of protection for a vehicle in its size class. However this thing only weighs 27 tons and is part of a program to replace various light scouts like the Scimitar. If we built a seventy ton vehicle out of the stuff it should hold against large caliber HEAT rounds, but I doubt it would have the same level of kinetic protection as steel and DU does. The massive thickness of the armor might also present problems.

Isolder74 wrote:
The Tank has only taken 1 hit from a Abrams and the second hit penetrated. The advantage is that the penetating shell sticks into the hull rather than bounce around inside. Suposidly they will have patch kits for the armor that can be glued on to fill the holes to let you get the tank home.

I seriously doubt Vickers had the thing tested against an M1's M256, cost alone would rule that out since you'd either have to ship it to Germany or bring the M1 to the UK.

It is conceivable that it was tested against a Challenger (2)'s gun, and the US article changed it to read an Abram's gun. They both use the Rheinmetall 120mm, right?

Howedar wrote:It is conceivable that it was tested against a Challenger (2)'s gun, and the US article changed it to read an Abram's gun. They both use the Rheinmetall 120mm, right?

No, The Challenger II uses the British developed L30 120mm, which happens to be rifled among other things.

Okay.

CaptJodan wrote:I have a little tiny question, and I'm sure that this may have been covered before, but I couldn't find it, and so if it has been, just give me the link. If not, I still hold the question here.

A lot of people on this board have suggested that the whole holodeck Borg incursion with real holographic bullets stopped the Borg, ergo, the Borg are killed by bullets.

The Borg were apparently killed by bullets. The true makeup of the bullets is still in question I believe, but I think it's generally agreed when the holodeck safeties are off, conventional bullets are replicated and simply fired as in real life.

In fact, real bullets may be replicated all the time and merely transported at the last millisecond before impacting a holodeck participant. It sounds dangerous, but in Deep Space Nine, a "transporter" equipped sniper rifle apparently was able to accomplish this easily enough on numerous occasions. One might assume a holodeck with ship's power available and multiple safies in place might use such a system.

Is this really the case? Are we sure this isn't just a case of "This is the first time (hard to believe it, yes, but...) that we've seen a Tommy gun, so we have yet to adapt" thing, and not a "We can't adapt at all thing"?

I suspect the Borg would adapt to bullets, but probably not with personal shielding, but instead heavier body armor on selected drones for such situations. Let's not forget the Borg were limited in numbers and resources in ST:FC, and had other more important goals in mind. It's not like their enemy was heavily using projectile weaponry. Just the once.

I mean, if it was so effective all the time, then of course it's totally idiotic that they don't use these all the time now.

I suspect Picard is more familar with the Borg than the average individual, and knows that they could adapt to projectile weaponry in some effective fashion if it became a serious problem for them. My best guess is more effect armor deployed, but I don't rule out personal shielding as a possibility. We have seen personal shielding deal with momentum in ST:VOY "Drone". While

Is there some kind of very good evidence to support this claim that they can't stand up to bullets ever?

I personally think it is ridiculas to think the Borg would never be able to adapt to some degree. At the very least, if it became necessary, I think they'd employ more heavily armored drones in situations that really call for them. The problem I see is that races in Star Trek, when reaching a certain technological level, no longer employ projectile weaponry in favor of energy weapons. Additionally, the Borg when engaging enemy ships, will beam aboard "scouting" drones to anaylse enemy vessels. But in full combat situations, they beam victims to their ships, stripping them of weaponry during transport. This was seen in ST:VOY "Dark Frontier". The Borg cannot be faulted for adapting to the universe they exist in, which is one where the vast majority of their enemy use energy weapons.

Robert Walper wrote: I personally think it is ridiculas to think the Borg would never be able to adapt to some degree. At the very least, if it became necessary, I think they'd employ more heavily armored drones in situations that really call for them.

It's been ages since I've seen you post much!

The Borg do have "tactical drones," as you know. Maybe they're the more heavily armored variety.

Of course, you could still shoot them in the head

Sea Skimmer wrote:
Abrams can stop 125mm tank shells at anything but point blank.

Depends on the shell- it's only proven against obsolete ammunition.

CaptJodan wrote:I have a little tiny question, and I'm sure that this may have been covered before, but I couldn't find it, and so if it has been, just give me the link. If not, I still hold the question here.

A lot of people on this board have suggested that the whole holodeck Borg incursion with real holographic bullets stopped the Borg, ergo, the Borg are killed by bullets. Is this really the case? Are we sure this isn't just a case of "This is the first time (hard to believe it, yes, but...) that we've seen a Tommy gun, so we have yet to adapt" thing, and not a "We can't adapt at all thing"? I mean, if it was so effective all the time, then of course it's totally idiotic that they don't use these all the time now. Is there some kind of very good evidence to support this claim that they can't stand up to bullets ever?

The first time the Borg were hit by a Starfleet phaser, in Q Who, it destroyed one drone. The second time (seconds later) they'd already adapted.

Ok, further questioning. I'm just trying to cover all my bases, because I believe that some day, I'm going to need this info. (Believe it or not, sad ain't it?)

I believe the true answer lies in the fact that, since the Borg never have adapted to KE attacks, as Poe states, then they probably won't, at least not without some kind of technobable screw-up or some other deficiancy in Trek cannon. However, speaking hypothetically, wouldn't the Borg be able to develop some kind of shield system that is attached to an inertial damper type device that would help to disperse the KE attached? We don't really know, as far as I know, how IDFs work, so it's hard to say how they'd be affected. (They've really never taken well to weapons, as the Enterprise always shakes, but a bullet or some such may be different?)

Just thinking up things that other trek....people...may come up with in the future.

It is not possible while still adhering to the most fundamental law of physics.

Ok.

seanrobertson wrote:It's been ages since I've seen you post much!

I'm never permanently on the internet, so my time here is quite infrequent. When I get a full time connection, I'm certain I'll show up more, especailly in defence of the Borg, the ultimate badass race.

The Borg do have "tactical drones," as you know.

Is there any doubt?

Maybe they're the more heavily armored variety.

That is my assumption, however, I've seen no direct evidence to back up this claim, therefore I won't make it. I believe it would be a reasonable assumption though.

Of course, you could still shoot them in the head

Agreed. However, I think there's still the question of how "durable" some Borg drones may be. Your "tactical" drones example is a good point, they may be much harder to kill than other typical drones. And we have seen drones that were apparently "dead" come alive again (ST:VOY "Collective"(I think that's the ep...)).

However, examples in ST:FC ignore the fact the Borg do not typically utilize "boarding" parties or similar attack forces. They beam victims aboard thier vessels for assimilation, with the ability to strip them of weaponry and potentially even armor during transport.

CaptJodan wrote:Ok, further questioning. I'm just trying to cover all my bases, because I believe that some day, I'm going to need this info. (Believe it or not, sad ain't it?)

We all have our weaknesses, debating sci-fi is mine.

I believe the true answer lies in the fact that, since the Borg never have adapted to KE attacks, as Poe states, then they probably won't,

This is purely on a drone level though. Their vessels clearly are able to handle KE energy. They stop photon torpedoes, which are physical objects.

at least not without some kind of technobable screw-up or some other deficiancy in Trek cannon. However, speaking hypothetically, wouldn't the Borg be able to develop some kind of shield system that is attached to an inertial damper type device that would help to disperse the KE attached?

That's possible, I suppose, but there's no evidence to back up that theory.

The only evidence we have that the Borg can potentially devolope a personal shield system capable of handling imparted momentum is in ST:VOY "Drone". That unique Borg did have a KE shield system, which was constructed by modern Borg nanoprobes that assimilated a futuristic holoemitter. My point in that example is that the nanoprobes assimilated a futuristic technology, but I highly doubt they(nanoprobes) completely invented a whole new shield system(one capable of dispersing and/or handling imparted momentum) out of thin air.

We don't really know, as far as I know, how IDFs work, so it's hard to say how they'd be affected. (They've really never taken well to weapons, as the Enterprise always shakes, but a bullet or some such may be different?)

Just thinking up things that other trek....people...may come up with in the future.

We're always trying, aren't we? ;:)

Robert Walper wrote:

at least not without some kind of technobable screw-up or some other deficiancy in Trek cannon. However, speaking hypothetically, wouldn't the Borg be able to develop some kind of shield system that is attached to an inertial damper type device that would help to disperse the KE attached?

That's possible, I suppose, but there's no evidence to back up that theory.

The only evidence we have that the Borg can potentially devolope a personal shield system capable of handling imparted momentum is in ST:VOY "Drone". That unique Borg did have a KE shield system, which was constructed by modern Borg nanoprobes that assimilated a futuristic holoemitter. My point in that example is that the nanoprobes assimilated a futuristic technology, but I highly doubt they(nanoprobes) completely invented a whole new shield system(one capable of dispersing and/or handling imparted momentum) out of thin air.

I think it's more likely that that particular force field system came about from the holoemitter. After all, isn't that what it does? Isn't it force fields reacting to physical matter that let the doctor touch things when he uses the emitter?

neoolong wrote:I think it's more likely that that particular force field system came about from the holoemitter.

Most likely, yes.

After all, isn't that what it does? Isn't it force fields reacting to physical matter that let the doctor touch things when he uses the emitter?

Exactly, however, One's shield handled imparted momentum, one of the strongest arguements against KE shielding being "feasible". Other Borg drones physically rammed him but were physically repelled and incapacitated. During those two attacks, One himself was not budged an inch, he was completely immobile while the other drones were flung backward from the impact.

My point is the mobile emitter have never demostrated the ability to create a KE shield with the ability to handle imparted momentum. Techincally, the holo doc is a KE shield, but he recoils when physically hit or pushed, etc. One on the other hand, did not.

I'm just trying to clarify what you said. Considering that it appears that the nanoprobes only "upgraded" what the emitter does.

Robert Walper wrote:Exactly, however, One's shield handled imparted momentum, one of the strongest arguements against KE shielding being "feasible". Other Borg drones physically rammed him but were physically repelled and incapacitated. During those two attacks, One himself was not budged an inch, he was completely immobile while the other drones were flung backward from the impact.

You exaggerate. They staggered backward as if stunned, but an electric fence produces the same effect and it doesn't cancel momentum.

Sea Skimmer wrote:

Isolder74 wrote: Plastic Resin with Layers of carbon fiber sheets inside them(hundreds) but it is not entirely made of composites. I has Steel armor 3 in shething the outside. It can stand up to a Bradly but a Abrams would waste it. The Basic Idea is to make a tank light enough to be airdroped into remote areas by C-130's

Neither the British nor America army is working on an air droppable AFV.

The M8 AGS was light enough to drop if you used the lighter Level I modular armor package, and the new LAV-25 Stryker armored car is supposed to be C-130 airdrooppable (it isn't, but that's a long and ugly story).

Darth Wong wrote:

Robert Walper wrote:Exactly, however, One's shield handled imparted momentum, one of the strongest arguements against KE shielding being "feasible". Other Borg drones physically rammed him but were physically repelled and incapacitated. During those two attacks, One himself was not budged an inch, he was completely immobile while the other drones were flung backward from the impact.

You exaggerate. They staggered backward as if stunned, but an electric fence produces the same effect and it doesn't cancel momentum.

I seem to recall the Borg drones moving towards One with a significant speed, speed which by all accounts should have at the very least pushed him back a foot or so. But he didn't budge an inch, and the drones did seem repelled. I'll have to look up the clip again. I'll post a link if that helps, should be on the StarTrek.net site.

Striderteen wrote:

Sea Skimmer wrote:

Isolder74 wrote: Plastic Resin with Layers of carbon fiber sheets inside them(hundreds) but it is not entirely made of composites. I has Steel armor 3 in shething the outside. It can stand up to a Bradly but a Abrams would waste it. The Basic Idea is to make a tank light enough to be airdroped into remote areas by C-130's

Neither the British nor America army is working on an air droppable AFV.

The M8 AGS was light enough to drop if you used the lighter Level I modular armor package, and the new LAV-25 Stryker armored car is supposed to be C-130 airdrooppable (it isn't, but that's a long and ugly story).

Thank You I was about to relpy to this but you did it for me. I had to go and look up a few things before I responded.