StarDestroyer.Net BBS

I can make the schematics of a vapour or hidraulic power plant, and direct the construction of it. The same for a few basic structures, like bridges not based entirely on solid stone.

I would also most likely revolutionarize the field of steel production

Some of my engineering knowledge would certainly make me rich, if I happened to fall into some King's court. But that's the end of it. You can't build a very good tank using wood for gas and valves for electronic components.

Colonel Olrik wrote:Some of my engineering knowledge would certainly make me rich, if I happened to fall into some King's court. But that's the end of it. You can't build a very good tank using wood for gas and valves for electronic components.

You could though make a very good 'iron clad dreadnaught' running on steam, and using cannons as weapons. I mean gunpowder is relatively easy to make, you just need to know where to get your hands on some sulpur-nitrate (that is in gunpowder right, that and charcoal?), and bob's your monkey's uncle you are now king of the seas, which is the first and most crucial step to Empire (see Athens, Rome, France, Spain, Dutch, Vikings, and most recently Britainia and of course the US of A)

Mind you the challenge would be building the thing without any money ...

Well, yeah, I was only thinking of continental powers. I also can "invent" gunpowder and cannons. Buiding a carnot cycle in a wood vessel would be simpler (after I invent the necessary steel structures) than designing an appropriated vessel in the first place. I'd need to take Warspite with me. And Mike. Then we'd show them

evilcat4000 wrote:You have been transported to the 50 BC Roman empire. You have all your knowledge but can not take anything with you. Can you take over the world ?

I can bring about huge advances in sanitation and health, military tactics, and maybe even governmental structure. However:

I must learn Latin and Greek.
I must become accepted by the wealthy patrician class (Impossible, I don't own land).
I must pull off what Caesar did and be dictator for life, which means I'd have to accomplish something on the scale of Gaul (Impossible, see above).

As I'm 15 now, I would have to start working as I'm not a kid in their eyes anymore, giving me little time to start conquering the world.

In short, unless we're automatically given a high gov't position and know Latin (Greek, too, I'd need their large population base for an army and loyal citizens) fluently we have no hope.

I would be toast in this scenario.

I would not be able to communicate (unless I were to draw crude comic strips detailing what I was saying), nor do I have advanced knowledge of any kind of engineering or what have you.

I would look like a tourist and would stick out like a sore thumb. I'm dog meat, pal.

I couldn't do it unless I got to take some stuff back with me. Even then the whole planet it huge and tough to try to control.

All to easy show them how to make gunpowder and teach them something about modren day Mil-Tacs and lead them.

I know some latin, but not nearly enough, and even then would sound like a provincial weirdo with the accent from hell...

evilcat4000 wrote:You have been transported to the 50 BC Roman empire. You have all your knowledge but can not take anything with you. Can you take over the world ?

Take over the entire planet? Only if I was immortal. Otherwise, hell no.

What could I do, if I appeared naked somewhere near Rome in 50 B.C.? Well, if I tossed enough basic French or Spanish at them, I might be able to worm my way to a library and pick up Latin. I could give them a general idea where the oil and coal is. They can also produce gears and pulleys. And their tech ought to be up to snuff to cast boilers. So we could produce steam engines, once me and my apprentices were able to convince the powers that be, that steam was truly a useful idea.

Once we had steam and fossil fuels, we could start out building rail lines, which would eventually give the Empire solid cohesion and coordination. And at some point, we'd have a talk about replacing all those lead pipes with copper or iron pipes. And, when they develop the ability to reliably cast iron pipes . . . I'd use my basic knowledge of gunpowder and set an apprentice or two trying to figure out how to get the right formula. And then, eventually someone's going to get it right and figure out that gunpowder expands faster than steam in an iron pipe with one end fused shut . . . and that this expansion can propel a hunk of metal forward with great velocity . . .

And, if I remember right, they have some knowledge about electricity. Once we get the industry started, I could give them something that's useful and within their new reach. Though I don't know much about radio, we could get them started on the telegraph.

Of course, to ensure my own long life, I'd introduce them to the infectious agent theory of medicine. And, if I remember correctly, they had a clue what glass was. I'd show someone the basics of grinding and polishing glass lenses. This would immediately give them the ability to produce telescopes and microscopes. (Though the telescopes would give them an immediate advantage over most of their enemies.)

Would this allow me to take over the entire world? Hell no, not unless I could take a bunch of people back with me and some books. Would it give the known world a humongous leap in technology and sciences that would allow them to completely dominate the planet in my name? Maybe.

And, to satisfy the ancient need for mysticism, I would warn them that eighty to ninety years after my arrival, a Roman governor in Palestine will have the opportunity to put a wildly reviled self-proclaimed messiah to death. I will instruct them that under no circumstances is that governer to obey the locals and sentence the man to death. Instead, he is to be locked up somewhere, for as long as they can hold him, and maybe shoot him repeatedly if they've gotten around to inventing useable muskets by then. :twisted:

Now one might ask if I have any desire to promote equality in society. My answer would be, no, not in my lifetime. Though in my twilight years, I'd start writing books about modern economic theory and equality of the races and the sexes. I'd bank on the fact that the increasing industrialization and modernization would eventually force them into evolving more 'modern' concepts on how to treat women and minorities.

So, what could I, a well-read man of science do . . . provided I don't meet an early end?

A) Push them to industrialization.

B) Force them towards a more modern view of medicine. Though this would be an easier task than industrialization, since a lot of groundwork has already been laid.

C) Vastly improve the mobility of their military forces (through steam engines) and improve their intelligence gathering (through telescopes) and improve their coordination (through telegraphs.) And possibly increase their lethality (through gunpowder . . . and the correct usage of it)

Quite frankly you're fucked in this scenario for the simple reason that most of us cannot speak any language in use at the time, so with all the knowledge in my head (and frankly how many of us can build ANYTHING from scratch, particularly with the technology and material available at the time) it would be useless because it cannot be communicated and considering how we live now, the sanitary conditions would most likely make me sick or kill me within a few weeks as our bodies are not conditioned to the filth and squalor of the time. All in all I'm glad to be in the here and now.

You get to learn three of the most common languages in the world at that time before you are sent.

But none of us are super genuises, I mean, I understand the principles of most things, but building one from scratch? With no money? And convincing people that I'm not crazy before I can perform a 'miracle'? I think not

This is an average 21st century guy in 50 BC scenario. While most of us know the basics of how the world work we do not the details. However still you would wiser than anyone alive at that time.

Now change your story slightly. Say that I go back with no items of value except the clothes on my back, but that I get to bring a small team of engineers, sociologists, and professional soldiers with me. That might make a difference.

Ok let's change the scenario. You get bring any three people from present times with you. Now what do you do ?

I would bring an engineer, a soldier and a historian with me. The engineer will help me build stuff, the soldier will train my military and the historian will serve as my advisor since he knows more about the world in 50 BC than I do.

With all my technical knowledge, I could invent a rudimentary bicycle and TAKE OVER THE WORLD!

How about tweaking the scenario and allowing you to access the internet from the past or something?

Slartibartfast wrote:How about tweaking the scenario and allowing you to access the internet from the past or something?

Nah that would make it too much easy. The challenge is whether an average present day person is intelligent enough to take over the world of past.

I show up, get some mercenaries together, equip them with more advanced weaponry and my knowledge of historical precendent, and then go out and smash the Parthians. Augustus gets a Christmas present 40 or so years before anyone else.

HemlockGrey wrote:I show up, get some mercenaries together, equip them with more advanced weaponry and my knowledge of historical precendent, and then go out and smash the Parthians. Augustus gets a Christmas present 40 or so years before anyone else.

That's the spirit ! Finaly someone thinks they can outsmart ancients of 50 BC. It won't be easy but it can be done.

Oh, I could survive, I have no doubt of that--even as a woman. Though Church Latin would be absolutely horrendous to a Roman of the era. But then, I'm a celt, and what else would they expect one of us to sound like whilst speaking Latin? But, again, my main goal would be to get to Egypt, where the intellectual atmosphere in Alexandria might let me prosper to some extent after learning to speak the languages better.

(Even as late as the Christian era, there have been famous women thinkers in Alexandria; though then, the last of them is mainly known for coming to a Bad End, one grants.)

Primarily I think my success could be in demonstrating the Arabic Numeral System to the mathematicians of the city, who use a horrific Greek system at that time which is even worse than the Roman numeral system. Also, there's a little something called the number Zero. Those two things alone, right there, would probably make me Very, Very important. Explaining zero as a concept and providing a sign for it is something nearly anyone on this board could do--same thing with the Arabic numeral system. End result? You're the greatest mathematician alive. That carries some weight right there.

Then I invent fractions!

There are two good works of fiction on just this scenario. One many of you here may have heard of is "Lest Darkness Fall", by L. Sprague deCamp. If you have not read it, do so; it's very good. It's a story about a man from the 1930s who, while visiting Rome, gets catapulted back to 5th centry, Ostrogothic Italy, jut before Justinian sends Belisarius to try and reconquer Italy for the Empire. While there, the hero introduces distilling, printing and paper making, Arabic numerals and double entry bookeeping, modern horse harnesses and a few other innovations. The story is humorously told, but fairly accurate as far as the basic historical facts of the era go. It's entertaining to watch the character cope with the superstitious who think he's an evil sorceror. And being as this is post-Imperial, Christian Italy, he comes close to being slain as a practitioner of the dark arts. This is probably accurate as far as what would likely happen to such a man in that era.

Important to note, though, is that the hero, Martin Padway, is able to do a lot of the things he can because there is at least some prior art to build on. He is able to make telescopes because there are artisans who can make glass and grind and polish it into a lens. He can make a still because there are people who can make copper tubing. He can make a printing press because there are carpenters who have made wine presses and instruments of torture. He can make paper because there are people who can make felt, and he learns to adapt their process, etc. Think about this. Could you make paper, or design a printing press? There has to be some prior art to build on.

Another story, more realistic probably, is a short story by Poul Anderson called "The Man Who Came Too Early". It is about an American MP stationed in Iceland who gets thrown back to the late 10th century AD. He can communicate because modern Icelandic is actually very little changed from Old Norse. He fails to accomplish anything because he finds there is not enough prior art to build on, or that the economic conditions just aren't right, or the necessary infrastructure doesn't exist. For example, he proposes larger, 16th or 17th century type ships, and finds the Vikings laugh at his ideas because these ships don't have oars, and the deep harbors with attendant piers such vessels need don't exist in Europe back then. He tries to make metal implements, since he has some experience of modern metalworking and machining, but finds he just can't do what he wants with a primitive blacksmith's setup. He finds out just how much some things are built on accomplishments that have come before. He finally ends up getting himself outlawed and killed because he just doesn't understand the dos and don'ts of that society, and ends up in a quarrel where he's forced to shoot a man and flee for his life, only to be hunted down and cornered.

Something like the second scenario is far more likely if any of us were to be thrown back to a far more primitive time like this.

You wouldn't at all be expected to know church Latin of the era, you could get by better on vulgar Latin, especially in Egypt where Egyptian and Greek are a bit more common than either. Besides, this is a fairly cosmopolitian place, if you show up going "bar-bar-bar", at worse people will roll their eyes and go "Oh great, a foriegner..." Really though, Greek would probably be the best language to learn, if you are going to be hanging around Alexandra, since this is just before the Roman presence picks up. Sure, there will be people that speak Latin, but more people will speak Greek.

Just hope you don't end up having one of those Bad Ends. While the general tenor of Alexandra may be a good place for you to be accepted, being too smart and busting the hell out of alot of assumptions might draw the wrath of jealous peers.

Gil Hamilton wrote:You wouldn't at all be expected to know church Latin of the era, you could get by better on vulgar Latin, especially in Egypt where Egyptian and Greek are a bit more common than either. Besides, this is a fairly cosmopolitian place, if you show up going "bar-bar-bar", at worse people will roll their eyes and go "Oh great, a foriegner..." Really though, Greek would probably be the best language to learn, if you are going to be hanging around Alexandra, since this is just before the Roman presence picks up. Sure, there will be people that speak Latin, but more people will speak Greek.

Actually, I meant Church Latin as in the current mangled Latin used by the Roman Catholic Church, which is the Latin that I am knowledgeable of (lapsed Catholic, you know).

Just hope you don't end up having one of those Bad Ends. While the general tenor of Alexandra may be a good place for you to be accepted, being too smart and busting the hell out of alot of assumptions might draw the wrath of jealous peers.

Oh, definitely. That's why I'd concentrate on some relatively simple if very important (for them) things in mathematics and use those as leverage to get into the Ptolemaic court--in time, hopefully, to "create" several inventions which could influence the Civil Wars.

OK, a few things -

Am I an equestrian or higher? No.

Can I speak ancient latin? No.

Do I look Roman or Mediterranean? No.

Do I stand a chance in hell of not being imprisoned/enslaved within a few hours? No.

I'm pretty sure that this would go for everyone here.

They'd probably think I was a giant or a monster and try to kill me, given that I'm very large, very pale, and wear spectacles.

Point of order, Romans in 50 BC didn't discriminate by ethnicity, so blacks and arabs were equal to white europeans. It was social level that counted.

The Duchess of Zeon wrote: Actually, I meant Church Latin as in the current mangled Latin used by the Roman Catholic Church, which is the Latin that I am knowledgeable of (lapsed Catholic, you know).

Ah, OK. Wasn't quite sure what you meant. I'm just saying that Greek would be the language to know if you are going to be hanging around Egypt at the time.

Oh, definitely. That's why I'd concentrate on some relatively simple if very important (for them) things in mathematics and use those as leverage to get into the Ptolemaic court--in time, hopefully, to "create" several inventions which could influence the Civil Wars.

Possibly, but like I said, it's important to not be too smart and remember that questions will be asked how exactly you know things if there isn't a basis for it in their poll of knowledge. Inspiration can only go so far. One possible way is to have a good cover story. You are a Traveller From a Distant Land, where they already know all this stuff.

weemadando wrote: Do I stand a chance in hell of not being imprisoned/enslaved within a few hours? No.

Rome does have laws, you know, and they won't grab people off the street and toss them in jail unless you break them. They aren't hard to avoid breaking, being in most cases reasonable, if the punishments are a bit severe. The worst problem would be street violence. I suppose that if I arrived in Rome I would have to work as a cook until I had enough money for passage to Alexandria. A job at one of the public bakeries would not be impossible to come by, even for a foreigner with bad latin (actually, especially, since a fair number of the citizens received the bread dole and had little motivation to work).

The Duchess of Zeon wrote: Primarily I think my success could be in demonstrating the Arabic Numeral System to the mathematicians of the city, who use a horrific Greek system at that time which is even worse than the Roman numeral system. Also, there's a little something called the number Zero. Those two things alone, right there, would probably make me Very, Very important. Explaining zero as a concept and providing a sign for it is something nearly anyone on this board could do--same thing with the Arabic numeral system. End result? You're the greatest mathematician alive. That carries some weight right there.

Why didn't I think of that. Genius right there!

HemlockGrey wrote:I show up, get some mercenaries together, equip them with more advanced weaponry and my knowledge of historical precendent, and then go out and smash the Parthians. Augustus gets a Christmas present 40 or so years before anyone else.

Help stop the defeat at Teutonoberg(sp?) forest, while you're at it. Roman Germany, anyone?