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Alyeska wrote:Think about who sent him on that mission.

I seem to recall it was some random admiral that we never heard from again. So what? Is not giving away such information to a clearly hostile nation treason?

Gil Hamilton wrote:

Alyeska wrote:Think about who sent him on that mission.

I seem to recall it was some random admiral that we never heard from again. So what? Is not giving away such information to a clearly hostile nation treason?

Apparently Picard had the authority to do so. Besides, the information he gave out could be changed if necessary.

Gil Hamilton wrote:Let's not forget Picards command brilliance in "The Wounded" where he not only gave the Cardassians transponder codes that would allow them to track all Federation vessels, but gave them the codes that would disable the Phoenix's shields, a fellow Federation ship. How me managed to avoid being courtmartialed I'll never know.

Part of Picard's reasoning was to avoid a war with Cardies. After all, the Feds just negotiated a peace treaty with Cardies and the Feds didn't have the stomach for another fight.

As a side note, the Federation in TOS era would have only negotiated a peace treaty with the Cardies after kicking some major ass!

Alyeska wrote:Apparently Picard had the authority to do so. Besides, the information he gave out could be changed if necessary.

He could not possibly of had the authority to all ships from a hostile nation to disable the defenses of a Federation starship, nor give away the transponder codes that would allow the Cardassians to track the Federation fleet. That would have been contrary to his mission which was to bring the Phoenix back to the Federation, and his actions only helped give the Cardassians a better shot at destroying the Phoenix, which if they had been a little more competant, they would have succeeded and Picard would have been responsible for the deaths of his fellow servicemen. That episode was full of treasonable offenses and any organization worth it's salt would have had Picard cleaning out his desk.

paladin wrote:Part of Picard's reasoning was to avoid a war with Cardies. After all, the Feds just negotiated a peace treaty with Cardies and the Feds didn't have the stomach for another fight.

As a side note, the Federation in TOS era would have only negotiated a peace treaty with the Cardies after kicking some major ass!

Picard's actions seemed to be more geared toward giving a hostile nations the means to destroy a ship from his navy. The Federations cowardice in the face of the Cardassians shouldn't extend that far.

And I swear, Kirk would haven't sold out to the Cardies like that!

Darth Servo wrote:

TurboPhaser wrote:Why is it you make disparaging remarks about this? Picard, makes mistakes. He is human. Except for that 'The Last Outpost' one, he has never held back when it was necessary.

The Last Outpost was NOT his only sign of incompetance.

Exhibit 1
Exhibit 2
Exhibits 3 & 4

And don't even get me started on the number of times he took the saucer section (filled with civilians and children) into harms way.

You forgot Exhibit 5.

Darth Servo wrote:

TurboPhaser wrote:Why is it you make disparaging remarks about this? Picard, makes mistakes. He is human. Except for that 'The Last Outpost' one, he has never held back when it was necessary.

The Last Outpost was NOT his only sign of incompetance.

Exhibit 1
Exhibit 2
Exhibits 3 & 4

And don't even get me started on the number of times he took the saucer section (filled with civilians and children) into harms way.

Regarding Voyager, Unless you had your eyes shut during Endgame (enough with the Voyager bashing jokes, they are old), Janeway got her damn ship home. And Janeway helped.

Now:

Exhibit 2: I'm confused, the quote says Riker sayin 'Shields up' yet Mike Wong says they didnt have their shields up. Clarify that please.

Exhibit 1: Picard and crew p[robably thought their ship would explode, and didnt want to hang around to find out. Like in 'Pegasus'.

Exhibit 3: What would you suggest SF defend their ships with? Love cannons? Those weapons primary purpose is to defend their ships.

Exhibit 5: Picard wanted to try to convince the thing to stop annihilating planets and get it alternate food sources. If it refused, Picard probably would have destroyed it. If he wouldnt have, I would have been all in favour of strapping him to the torpedo launchers and going for some target practice on some asteroids.

TurboPhaser wrote:Exhibit 2: I'm confused, the quote says Riker sayin 'Shields up' yet Mike Wong says they didnt have their shields up. Clarify that please.

The problem is that they were on the Romulan border investigating the destruction of several of their border posts and their shields weren't already up.

TurboPhaser wrote:Exhibit 1: Picard and crew probably thought their ship would explode, and didnt want to hang around to find out. Like in 'Pegasus'.

Picard abandoned an intact starship in hostile territory. I don't care if he "thinks" the ship is going to explode; he's obliged to either get it back to a friendly port or make sure it explodes to keep it from falling into enemy hands (which is exactly what happened to it).

TurboPhaser wrote:Exhibit 3: What would you suggest SF defend their ships with? Love cannons? Those weapons primary purpose is to defend their ships.

You're missing the point on 3 & 4. Neither Picard nor Riker considers Starfleet a military organization. They don't want to be involved in a combat exercise.

TurboPhaser wrote:Exhibit 5: Picard wanted to try to convince the thing to stop annihilating planets and get it alternate food sources. If it refused, Picard probably would have destroyed it. If he wouldnt have, I would have been all in favour of strapping him to the torpedo launchers and going for some target practice on some asteroids.

Hey, I'll cut him some slack. At least this time he didn't arbitrarily dismiss the idea. It's possible that Lore somehow mislead the creature into attacking humans and that it could easily be turned toward other, non-sentient food sources, so I really don't have any problem with him trying to talk to it first as long as he doesn't take unacceptable risks.

TurboPhaser wrote:Regarding Voyager, Unless you had your eyes shut during Endgame (enough with the Voyager bashing jokes, they are old), Janeway got her damn ship home. And Janeway helped.

And she wouldn't have gotten stuck out there in the first place if she had the brains of a turnip, because the appearantly the concept of a timer was beyond her.

TurboPhaser wrote:Exhibit 1: Picard and crew p[robably thought their ship would explode, and didnt want to hang around to find out. Like in 'Pegasus'.

"Probably thought it would explode" doesn't cut it. A competant military officer would MAKE SURE the ship was destroyed.

Exhibit 2: I'm confused, the quote says Riker sayin 'Shields up' yet Mike Wong says they didnt have their shields up. Clarify that please.

The shields should have been up BEFORE the situation in question even took place. Destruction of several outposts along your border is more than sufficient justification to assume a defensive posture.

Exhibit 3: What would you suggest SF defend their ships with? Love cannons? Those weapons primary purpose is to defend their ships.

What part are you refering to?

Exhibit 5: Picard wanted to try to convince the thing to stop annihilating planets and get it alternate food sources. If it refused, Picard probably would have destroyed it. If he wouldnt have, I would have been all in favour of strapping him to the torpedo launchers and going for some target practice on some asteroids.

"Good and evil don't enter into it; in real life, when an animal is a dangerous killer with a history of preying on humans, that animal is put down, and nobody questions that decision. That doesn't make us immoral or inhumane; it is merely a prudent precaution, and it is also a perfectly natural act."

RedWizard wrote:You forgot Exhibit 5.

I never said it was a comprehensive list.

Let's see. Two of the exhibits were from Season One, a season often derided for it's shitty quality. Two were from Season Two. And then Exhibit 5 isn't nearly as clear cut.

PICARD: I'm not denying that it might become necessary to fire on it. But that would be a last resort.

Picard was willing to destroy it if the creature proved intractable. GIVEN what we know of Federation/Starfleet policy, it would be inappropriate for captains to disregard said policy at every turn. Considering that nobody was in immediate danger, it was not inappropriate for Picard to consider alternative methods. Do we not trap and release wild animals?

Gil Hamilton wrote:Let's not forget Picards command brilliance in "The Wounded" where he not only gave the Cardassians transponder codes that would allow them to track all Federation vessels, but gave them the codes that would disable the Phoenix's shields, a fellow Federation ship. How me managed to avoid being courtmartialed I'll never know.

He was ordered to avoid war with the Cardassians at all costs. Remember that when he confronted the Phoenix that O'Brien said Picard was willing to fire on (perhaps even destroy, if it were necessary) the Phoenix in order to deter it.

Kirk would have done the same thing if a renegade Starfleet vessel threatened to disrupt the peace and throw the Federation into war. He would have followed orders (although, I doubt he would necessarily have released the codes so willingly) and tracked down the Phoenix, destroying it if necessary.

If he had refused, and the incident eventually boiled over into another war, Picard would have been hung out to dry for not taking the chance of allowing the Cardassians to track him via the codes.

And is it somehow impossible for Starfleet to simply change the codes after this incident? Besides, who says the codes would work for the whole fleet? Picard is pretty clear when he says "transmit the prefix codes for the Phoenix."

Uraniun235 wrote:He was ordered to avoid war with the Cardassians at all costs. Remember that when he confronted the Phoenix that O'Brien said Picard was willing to fire on (perhaps even destroy, if it were necessary) the Phoenix in order to deter it.

Wrong, his orders were to bring back the Phoenix into Federation space for inquiry, not destroy it.

Kirk would have done the same thing if a renegade Starfleet vessel threatened to disrupt the peace and throw the Federation into war. He would have followed orders (although, I doubt he would necessarily have released the codes so willingly) and tracked down the Phoenix, destroying it if necessary.

Kirk sell out his own to a clearly hostile and belligerent alien force by giving them vital information about Federation defenses and then give the enemy as much help as he could in destroying the ship he was supposed to be returning intact? You haven't watched very much TOS, have you? I guarentee you that would have ended with the Cardassians getting the hard bargain from Kirk, not Maxwell, because Kirk wouldn't have let the Cardassians continue to build up the means to attack the Federation again, which is what the Cardassians were up to when Maxwell attempted to stop them. You'll notice Picard continued to let them build up along the border, which undoubtably bit them in the ass later.

If he had refused, and the incident eventually boiled over into another war, Picard would have been hung out to dry for not taking the chance of allowing the Cardassians to track him via the codes.

Ah yes, because we all know that refusing to commit treason is a punishable offense.

And is it somehow impossible for Starfleet to simply change the codes after this incident? Besides, who says the codes would work for the whole fleet? Picard is pretty clear when he says "transmit the prefix codes for the Phoenix."

Two seperate incidents. I'm not talking about the codes that allowed the Cardassians to disassemble the Phoenix's shields (a seperate treasonable offense, providing a hostile enemy with the means to attack one of your own), but before when they were still trying to track the Phoenix and Picard gave them the transponder codes that were clearly stated to allow the Cardassians to track all of their ships.

Goddamnit Gil, Picard was told the Federation could not afford another war, and thus was ordered to preserve the peace at all costs. ALL costs. Or are you going to conveniently skip over this again?

You'll notice Picard continued to let them build up along the border, which undoubtably bit them in the ass later.

Because determining Federation policy and Starfleet strategy is what Picard should be doing. I thought this sort of behavior was something Star Trek was lambasted for.

Ah yes, because we all know that refusing to commit treason is a punishable offense.

Refusing to follow orders certainly is, although the right jury might aquit him. I don't know, "preserve the peace at all costs" is pretty clear.

but before when they were still trying to track the Phoenix and Picard gave them the transponder codes that were clearly stated to allow the Cardassians to track all of their ships.

Again, why is it impossible for Starfleet to change the codes?

Uraniun235 wrote:Goddamnit Gil, Picard was told the Federation could not afford another war, and thus was ordered to preserve the peace at all costs. ALL costs. Or are you going to conveniently skip over this again?

"Peace at all costs" never is at all costs, and you know it. More on this in a second.

Because determining Federation policy and Starfleet strategy is what Picard should be doing. I thought this sort of behavior was something Star Trek was lambasted for.

Letting your enemy build up for the express purpose of attacking you and not even informing anyone about it is something that Picard shouldn't do.

Refusing to follow orders certainly is, although the right jury might aquit him. I don't know, "preserve the peace at all costs" is pretty clear.

Tell me where he was ordered to give away the transponder codes that would allow the Cardassians to track all Federation ships? Or where he was ordered to give away the codes that gave the advantage to his enemy who was intent on killing his fellow servicemen? He never was.

And "peace at all costs" is not a clear statement. In fact, it's a really, really vague statement. For instance, if the Cardassians demanded that the Enterprise be turned over to Cardassian authority, or there would be war, would Picard do it? No. You still protect your nation and don't sumbit to a clear enemy or give that enemy sensitive information. Doing so is treason. Those transponder codes and the codes that allowed them to disable the defenses of a fellow Federation starship are clearly sensitive information, yet Picard, of his own free will, turned them over to the Cardassians. He was never ordered to and the situation wouldn't have dissolved into war if he hadn't. That's treason right there.

Of course, this will probably fall of deaf ears, since Trekkies like you rarely use their brains if it means that they have to call their hero Picard a traitorous moron, but hey, I tried.

Again, why is it impossible for Starfleet to change the codes?

They can, but not before the Cardassians get a headcount of whats on their border and where they are going and what's defending what. I doubt this is getting through your thick trekkie skull, so I'll say it in small words for you, that is a bad thing, as a enemy (the bad guys) now know where all the good guys are and where they are going to. This makes the bad guys able to attack the good guys very easily, because the bad guys now know where the good guys are not so good. Is any of that reaching you? I can make pictures illustrating it, if you want. The point is that what Picard did was clearly treasonous. People have hanged historically for doing similar things.

Uraniun235 wrote:Let's see. Two of the exhibits were from Season One, a season often derided for it's shitty quality.

Irrelevant. Season one is still canon and in that season, Picard is a VETERAN officer. In the case of the Stargazer, will you try and argue that NO ONE on that ship thought to scuttle the thing?

Two were from Season Two.

So? What difference does it make what season they're from?

StarshipTitanic wrote: No, she didn't! Future versions don't count.

Ah, but Future-SpaceMom got her crew home without the "all weapons" and "Skip level" cheats....