Originally posted by FTeik:
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All I see is whining and dismissal of the Dark Empire Sourcebook because you don't like it.
My apologizes, that i don´t like the idea of dozens of different warships showing up and never be seen again.
Excuse me?Yeah, because Zahn's grand vision of six ISDs being the only major fleet in the Empire and never even referring to anything else is brilliant.
I suggest you read HttE or TLC again. In HttE Thrawn conducts three simultanous attacks with four ISDs each. That are at least twelve of those ships. In TLC the NR is loosing several sectors in a matter of days. Are you suggesting, that they were all conquered by Thrawn´s core-fleet? And in the briefing of the NR about their attack on Bilbringi Wedge is talking to Pash Cracken about the loss of an important installation (a com-center plus the depot of an entire fleet). The only thing Thrawn was said to have done during that attack was provided the plan. He himself wasn´t there. And according to the Essential Chronology his campeign doubled the quater-sized territory of the empires height at its peak. If Thrawn did all of of that alone with six ISDs one has to wonder, if he and the crews of those ships ever managed to find some sleep.
Did i say it is? I never claimed it didn´t. I would have liked it to see more of them.The idea that the Empire is somehow incapable of building larger ships, and that anything would be interim between the 17.6 kilometer Executor and the 1.6 km ISD.
Unfortunately, if you like it or not we only see most of them in the background of DarkEmpire. We don´t know their classes, what the ships are capable to do, how many of each class were there and for what they were used. And after DarkEmpire it is almost, as if they never existed. We can imagine, that they were all whipped out when Byss went bumm or operation Shadowhand, but this would only explain, why they ceased to exist.
Gone, out of existance, they were watering our mouths and caused blood to rush into the lower regions of our bodies, but did we get enough to be satisfied. NO.
I know some of those sources. But once again, where did i say, that the empire is incabable or unwilling of building ships intermediate in size between an ISD and an Executor?Apparently you never doesn't know what Marvel is, what the Jedi Knight games are, Episode II ICS, Han Solo Adventures (featuring the 2 km Invincible dreadnought).
Hell, what about the canonical ROTJ "communications ship" and the aberrant destroyer?
I'm never not amused by people who think the Empire never built anything between their command ship and destroyer, even though there an eleven fold difference in length and god knows how much in volume.
My rages originates from getting only a short glimpse and nothing more. The only thing we know is those ships existed once up on a time and were never seen again. That is almost as good as if they never existed.
Are you talking about Cal-Class-warships and Kamauri-Warships? I know about them. If not, could you be so nice to provide some quotes (for the freighter, too) just to satisfy my curiosity. And i think by now i should have my point made clear.They look at the Dodonna calcs and the fact that the Death Star II was 60% constructed in six months with no dedicated shipyard facilities from raw materials and was worth the volume of 24 million ISD and conclude the ISD had to be mother of all warships, in coordinace with WEG.
Nevermind that common refitted frieghters can be double the length. Old Dreadnought from thousands of years ago are much larger.
I know that and you know that.I don't know why I'm bothering. If you don't recognize that Dark Empire is more in line with the correct scale of a galaxy-wide civilization nothing I'm going to say is going to change that.
Besides, the "it is never seen again" is not only wrong, its also an appeal to popularity. Do we accept the 8 km length because it is named a lot? Does the number of repetitions mean anything from a logical point of view? Great logic, Stravo and Fteik.
The officials of LFL obviously DON´T. Zahn, Stackpole, all the authors of the Bantham-Era, WEG and so on don´t know, too. But that is what we get, if we like it or not (it is also questionable why an empire, that has its roots in a galaxy-wide republic, that has known peace for at least thousand years needs so many big ships. Can anybody name a possible opponent with ships able to fight an ISD?)
Those ships existed, they were seen once and never again and we all lived happily after. Great.
Concerning your accusion of appeal to authority, i don´t accept the 8 Km lenght no matter how often it is mentioned.
First i have canon proof to the contrary and second, this isn´t an issue about being named a lot. My problem is, that those ships were introduced and that was it. What followed on them was ... nothing. As if they never existed. Because of that it would have been better, they wouldn´t have been introduced at all.
And if we want to keep intermediates between ISDs and Execotors we can still claim, that there are 8 km, 12,8 km and 17,6 km long SSDs in between, if we become that desperate.
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Originally posted by FTeik:
Forgive me for not liking World-Devastators, Eclipse-Class-Superstardestroyers, Galaxy-Guns, Shadow-Droids, Imperial Sentinels, Sovereign-Protectors (as if the royal guard wouldn´t have been enough), Chrysalis-beasts and so on in one single story-arc.
Different from the Palpatine in the movie-era... .Let me think about this.So what? They wanted to show us a lot of new stuff. How is it any different from Palpatine in the movie era? He always built massive weapons and gizmos. What about Thrawn relying on wonderous gimmicks? Ysalamiri? Clones? A phantom fleet? A Dark Jedi Master who can control a whole fleet's worth of crewmen?
There were DeathStars and ... DeathStars and probabely the Executor.
But besides this nothing was as über as a World-Devastator or an Eclipse or the Galaxy-Gun. Besides being able to supress the use of the force the ysalamiri are harmless, small lizard, the existance of clones was already established with ANH and the ability of Dark Jedi Masters controlling the crewman of an entire fleet was already established in the RotJ-novel.
And contrary to DE all of this was tied together in one way or the other, while for DE those things were only there to be there and to awe the fan-boys.
I thought it to be an interesting concept. I would have even liked it, if not for all the other stuff. May i ask, why you think it to be rediculous?And the Galaxy Gun is semi-rediculous in my opinion. I barely stomach it, and I did not enjoy Dark Empire too, so the Chrysalis Beasts is out too.
Can i have a bottle or are you going to breast-feed me?Besides, the fact that it all boils down to Force Users duking it out touches back to a movie theme: "Do not be too proud of this technological terror you've constructed. The ability to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the power of the Force."
Not matter what machines Palpatine did, he couldn't defeat the lightside. This theme is spelled out in notes at the end of the Dark Empire Trade Paperback, so I don't know why I'm baby-feeding this to you.
As for "defeat the lightside", that point went totally down with Crimson Empire, where we learn, that Palpatine was murdered by his own bodyguard and doctor. That was the second time he was killed by somebody he thought he had under his thumb.
Perhaps because i haven´t read the notes of the DarkEmpire Trade Paperback ( i have a translated version without those). And it isn´t a good thing, if the author(s) have to explain something outside their creation, if it should have become obvious from the comic itself.
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Originally posted by FTeik:
My excuses for not liking Luke Skywalker turning to the dark Side, although he sucessfully resisted this temptation in RotJ.
Changes nothing, that it was idiotic to try by Luke and idiotic by Palpatine to allow Luke to sabotage him. And this contest of wills Luke already won in RotJ without help. Besides, he was lost on the Eclipse. „You don´t know the power of the dark side. I must obey my master.“ Does this sound familiar? Luke not only risked loosing himself for the galaxy, he really got lost."Once you start down the Dark Path, forever will it dominate your destiny."
Furthermore, you lost the whole damn point to Dark Empire. Luke didn't fall to the Dark Side. He knew Palpatine wanted a right-hand. Palpatine knew he wanted to sabotage the war and Palpatine's plans. It was a sacrifice and a trial for Luke, in the foot-steps of Ulic Qel-Droma. A contest of wills, that, with the help of the other Skywalker, Leia, he won.
The whole "oh God Luke fell to the Dark Side" is unfortunately the lazy minded interpretation of later works. Luke infiltrated the greatest evil to destroy it from within. He tested the boundaries of Light and Dark. He risked losing himself for the galaxy.
He willing went to Palpatine to try and destroy him. He succeeded where Qel-Droma failed
Indeed on taste, though I have to say it is very harsh and judgemental on a work to say something like that. Zahn annoys me, but I'd never want to lose his works to SW.
I think there are several aspects of every work of every author, that annoy us to some degree. Zahn´s minimalism, KJA´s Daala and other things, the Luke-plot of BFC and so on. Considering this i probabely don´t want those works un-official, but non existing, so i would have never gotten a chance to spent money on them.
I know its unfair towards people, who spent a lot of work and effort (not necessarily on continuity), but what can i say – i´m not happy with the results. Of course, since i´m writting my own fan-fictions i´m a lot more forgiving and there may be people who don´t like them, but i´m doing them for the fun of mine and i don´t get paid for them. On the other side, who is hurt, if those stories are declared un-official? We already have infinities-stories and are their authors complaining, that their work is out of continuity?
Originally posted by FTeik:
Why do you value a comment from Stent more, than one of Mara Jade.
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Because Stent is PART of the Hand of Thrawn, and has lived and served out there. I think he has a better appreciation for the situation than the version that was given to her by two traitors just in desire to recruit her.
Did you really need me to tell you that? Jesus Christ. Dismissal of sources anyone?
Why are you insulting me as a creationist?
Why this obsession with Fel and Parck being traitors? This tells us only about their character, not their experience or competence.
And contrary to Stent these two know the situation in the main part of the galaxy AND the situation in the Unknown Regions. The only thing Stent probabely knows about the main galaxy is, that it is the the place, where the powerful ships that helped them establishing their own little empire originated from (of course he knows a little more, but not by his own experience). The actual events taking place in the New Republic prove him wrong. Hell, NR-officials like Leia or Gavrisom doubt, that they could rally enough forces to deal with the eight sectors of the Imperial Remnant.
And the main reason they wanted to recruit Mara Jade was because they weren´t sure with whom they should side in this conflict, because they were concerned, that the imperials at Bastion could abuse the power the forces of the Hand of Thrawn would give them. Sounds like a bit more than one fortress and a few gunboats.
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Originally posted by FTeik:
[Especially if he was only trying to mock her? And what about Grodin Tierce quoting Thrawn himself that „ the hand of Thrawn would ensure the final victory of the empire“? Or that Parck and Fel were convinced, that Mara would join them, as soon as she had seen, whats going on in the unknown regions?
Well, Stent whom you chose as your witness „rants“ about the same threats. And how long do you think Fel and Parck could have kept up the facade or the fact, that they were bluffing, before Mara or others would have noticed, what was really going on?Because Parck and Fel are fanatics. They rant and rave on threats never seen or observed like Hitler screaming about Bolshevik hordes on the border. I'll trust a recruit who's been fighting like him than two Imperial officers who derelicted their duty to the Empire. You have yet to prove how he would be exaggerating, despite the fact that all the evidence suggests that anything that the Hand of Thrawn and the Chiss could fight off is no threat to the galaxy proper. You're cherry picking.
And there is a vast difference between Hitler and Fel and Parck. Those two were actual soldiers, while Hitler had gone crazy at least in 1942. I could as well point at Tony Blair and Georg Bush „screaming“ Saddam Hussein can attack the western world with WMD in less than an hour.
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Originally posted by FTeik:
And what are the exact quotes from Gamer 5?
Is this confirmed by the chiss themself or just assumption on the side of the New Republic? Do they use navigational beacons instead of nav-computers because they don´t have the technology or because they want to keep their population and military under control?
Why is it bullshit to ask, if i don´t know the quotes?Ugh don't give me this bullshit.
It is written in third-person omniscient perspective. It is. And who cares if they have the technology or not? Point is, their fleets do not have navicomputer capabilities. The why is irrelevent. If they purposely backward themselves, that's just idiotic. Though I suppose you think if they have navicomputers they can just refit the electronic systems on their ships whenever they want on the drop of a coin. Ask Skimmer about the realism of THAT.
The Inferiority of the Chiss Compared to the Galaxy Proper
I have got a problem...
NJO Question
And there are several things in SW, where omniscient-perspective wasn´t really omniscient. And the why isn´t irrelevant. The question is, can they do it if necessary or not? I never claimed, that they should be able to do it „on the drop of a coin“. And purposely „backwarding themself“ isn´t a privilege of the Chiss alone (the NR limiting itself to ships smaller than ISDs, no building of big ships, if this was really a political decission).
All right, so they don´t have ships bigger than a Strike-Cruiser.
But what does this tells us about their power?
Are there all-purpose-vessels like Stardestroyers or are they packed like a WWII-submarine with power-cores and weapons designed to fight only?
Twelve of their patrol-ships against fifteen of Palpatine´s best warships and the patrol-ships won. His entire genius wouldn´t have helped Thrawn in that battle, if there hadn´t been at least some technological parity.
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Originally posted by FTeik:
According to the AotC:ICS the sector-fleets of Kuat and Corellia were also limited to their sectors by their hyperdrives and the TradeFederation, the office of the Chancellor and the Jedi were the only ones with exact maps of everything. Can´t they do better or is this by design.
It proves that technological abilities existing are not used, because of decissions made on the design. I hope you don´t want to claim, that they could refit their hyperdrives „at the drop of a coin“ should the need arise.So what? So they didn't fit their warships with hyperdrives that are unnecessary? What does that prove? So not everyone keeps maps of parts of the galaxy that are irrelevent to them. What is your point? We know massive-scale probe droid exploration is practical.
And how do you decide, which part of the galaxy is irrelevant to you? If you come one day to the conclusion „oh, that part of the galaxy is of interest to me, because my enemy, who has invaded my sector several times, originates from there“ and you want to pay him a visit, if you don´t have maps of your own, in that case you depend on the good-will of those who have.
And if droid-exploration is so practical and cheap, why are there only three organisations, that have maps of nearly everything at the time of AotC?
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Originally posted by FTeik:
As for no ships bigger than a Strike-Cruiser for nearly two decades every warship build by the New Republic was smaller than one mile. Does this mean they don´t have the knowledge to build such ships, that they lack the resources and infrastructure or the political will?
Just that the ships seen in RotJ were converted luxury-liners and the more standard warships of later years are all around 1.2 km if you like it or not.Home One anyone? And I take WEG's lengths for Mon Cals with a grain of salt. ILM charts plugged Mon Cal sketches at 1 mile, and MC-80B and MC-90 vessels can stand up to 17.6 km Executor-class command ships, and since they're often depicted as massive battlecruisers and used a flagships, I wouldn't be suprised if they were in the neighborhood of the Home One length.
Needless to say, your point is irrelevent. We know it is political will with them, due to Mon Mothma's "no big ships" crap and wanting to scap any Executor they captured. Your assumption that is the case with the Chiss is irrelevent for two reasons. a) it is an assumption, and b) none of that changes the fact that their fleet is made of pathetically tiny vessels.
Same for the Republic-Stardestroyer and the ships of the New Class-programm.
Live with it.
And i doubt it was only political will.
The Lusankya wasn´t really scrapped and the economical situation of the NR was never very good.
In the TTT they try to hire smugglers, because they don´t have enough transports.
In Isard´s Revenge Booster Terrik concludes the Lusankya being repaired from movements at the markets for the spare-parts of the ship.
From DarkEmpire we learn, that they try to use synthetic Tibanna-gas, since the real stuff is so expansive.
In The New Rebellion, Leia as head of state says, that the NR isn´t a rich government.
Hapes.If they can build them and refuse, that just makes them morons. It isn't as if in a major war they will have much time to suddenly ramp up production of huge ships (from their 29-world military industrial complex) since it wouldn't take long for a major galactic power to overrun 29 worlds in short order.
Dornea.
Mon Calamari.
From Tarkin´s letter to Palpatine in the ISB:
I have also noticed that even the excellent pace with which Your Majesty is strengthening his fleets can scarcely provide security for the Empire should a significant number of planets begin to defy your will. We are many years away from a force vast enough to secure every system simultaneously.
I´m sure i can find others. Its not, that a „major“ galactic power wouldn´t be able to overrun mere 29 worlds, but i don´t think it will be as easy as you are suggesting.
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Originally posted by FTeik:
If i remember correct, there are only several thousand stars. And nothing suggest, that it has vastly greater economic capacity or resources. The Yevethans have only 22 worlds and then there are a few spare populated colonies from outside. No vastly greater economic base. And nothing, that suggest, that those resources are exploited in grand style. If the Koornacht-Cluster would have been such a powerhouse, it would have been more difficult for the imperials to keep it secret or their activities there would have been bigger.
Care to explain how the resource-poor deep Core is a huge powerhouse?Why? A galaxy wide civilization hasn't had problems leaving enough to be exploited later for the civilization to still be stagnant in the modern era. The Deep Core was easily kept secret despite being a huge powerhouse. Globular clusters contain fewer post-helium elements, and are outside the galactic disk, making them more likely to be ignored.
Furthermore, thousands of stars is in itself vastly greater material resources than the Chiss. There is known to be more stuff there than in Chiss Space, which is in the galactic halo.
Its entire population was artifically settled there and in DarkSaber Warlord Harsk had to bully every system he could reach to get the materials for a squadron of ISDs.
The cloned emperor´s forces had to get spare-parts and materials from the smugglers from Nar Shadda.
Not to mention, that the living-conditions in the deep Core are piss-poor at the time of BFC and there are hardly any ships bigger than a Strike-Cruiser left. And since there are only few safe hyperspace-lanes, it is doubtful, if the people living there even have access to every starsystem.
And concerning the resource-base of the Chiss: How long would the entire resources of a single planet hold to satisfy the needs of 5 trillion beings?
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Originally posted by FTeik:
One homeworld and twenty-nine colonies. Each guarded by a phalanx. (I don´t have the sources myself, i can only repeat, what i have read elsewhere). A population of five trillions (5*10^12 or 5*10^18?). How much of them serve as military and how much resources can you get from one planet?
Why do you need thousands of starsystems, if a few are enough. With „only“ five trillion beings populaton to satisfy there is neither a need nor a sense in exploiting thousands of stars. And the question is, how many of them serve as military. Especially in a totalitarian society like the Chiss?Not as much as from thousands of star systems. And the Mining Guild had billions of chosen mining worlds.
And the American trillion is the one being used. I'm not really impressed by their population--its only a 2.5 hundred times larger than the Emperor's private retreat world. Its much smaller than Coruscant's population.
Well, Dornea (80 capital ships) or Bakura (at least 4) during the Corellian-Crisis are compared to many others we have seen.And I can tell you that most military forces in SW aren't very impressive based on single planets. Especially when they have only Strike Cruisers and no navicomputers.
But most of those military forces aren´t totally on their own, since they are either subjects to the empire, its predeccor, the Galactic Republic or the New Republic. For the Chiss the situation is totally different, given their isolated nature, especially if they are „surrounded by enemies“.
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Originally posted by Gamer 5:
The heart of Chiss politics lies on Csilla, and in the four ruling families. At the House Palace in Csilla’s capital city of Csaplar can be found the Cabinet and Parliament. The 28 outlying Chiss colonies are represented in the Parliament by apointed governors, or House leaders.
Did i say otherwise?There are 29 worlds, period.
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Originally posted by FTeik:
400 Species on 11.000 worlds. And why do you think the rest of the galaxy is allied or a protectorate to it and not independent or otherwise on its own?
Presence isn´t the same as sovereignity. And since the NR started in the outer-rim several of its oldest members are probabely located there. Nowhere is stated, that the NR has a single, unified territory under its control.Since the New Republic had expeditions to the Outer Rim they must have at least had some presence out there.
Possible. But most of those were old ships (slowly replaced by NewClass-ships) and even then they didn´t have enough ships.I theorize that the New Republic at this period was composed of a small "core" of full members who totally give their soveriegnty to the NR, with the vast majority of the NR being protectorates and other semi-independent groups who raise their own militaries, and can request NR help. A federation-within-a-confederation if you will. It explains a lot of things--why so few members yet so much throw-weight for the NR? Why the New Republic had been able to defeat an Imperial incursion before and after the crisis, while so little seemed to be available with the Yevetha.
Either way, the NR clearly had more as of the NJO.
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Originally posted by FTeik:
Having read the corellian crisis just recently, yes there were political concerns, too. However, that doesn´t change the fact that they were stretched thin. Very thin. No wall of ships defending the galactic core and inner rim. And Ackbar needed nearly four weeks to gather a force of twenty-five capital ships for a crisis taking place in one system. And during the HoT-Duology the situation wasn´t changed and because of the peace-treaty the number of ships was even reduced. Reduced for heavens sake.
Do i hear a call to authority or what? Or did i say it was otherwise? The point is, there was nothing they had available for quick responses. Not a single, small reserve-fleet (like the empires ten percent in the core).Ask Skimmer about military logistics and come back to me. The fleet was in moth-balls. But I suppose you want to throw out the Chronology too?
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Originally posted by FTeik:
And? We have never seen 25,000 ISDs in one place so they don´t exist?
An officer who after fifty years of service was still Captain and not even in command of his own ship at Endor. An officer, who claimed an SSD to be eight kilometers long in Darksaber and said, that the ship was enough to bancrupt the empire. An officer, who behaves in FH like he and his empire would be fighting the YV for the first time.That's different. We had a standing officer of the military give a statement on the military's size.
Already HttE establishes, that Thrawn was bringing the Unknown Regions under control and was promoted to Grandadmiral and recieved the honory-title of warlord for his brillant successes there. In the DFR-sourcebook we see the conquest of a world in the UR and it was certainly not the only one.This is actually made minimalist by both the Death Stars, the fact Palpatine threw a Sector Group just to pin the entire Rebellion in place and the Rebels were still outnumbered. Giel's armada in Marvel, Dark Empire fleets, etc.
Pelleaon's quote told us what always made sense in terms of the overall scale. It is impossible to "lose" a Sector in the middle of a spiral galaxy. Gamer and a strict interpretation of what we see in VoTF is totally consistent with a fleet in the mostly empty galactic halo.
But a hunch made by looking a the fact that a mapping mission had been completed that is actually contradicted by other evidence is evidently perfect logic to you and on par with Pelleaon's statement and supporting evidence. Since that is perfectly sensical to you, I have little to say.
Sontir Fel lost his eye in a fight against „one of the many warlords out there“ according to VotF and from DarkJourney we have the following quotes:
Chapter 6, page 52: The Chissbase, the latest of many Fel had established over the years ...
and on page 54: Chiss society pretends, that Syndic Mitth´raw´nuruodo does not exist, but they know quite well, that we are out here. They send their sons and daughters to this phalanx´s academies and bases (ACADEMIES and BASES – plural). They were more than willing to accept the protection and technology that Thrawn´s conqests and alliances offered them.
Sounds like a lot more than a mapping-mission to me, especially since this isn´t the ST-federation we´re talking about, but the evil galactic empire.
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Originally posted by FTeik:
According to your logic Thrawn would have mapped and conquered thirty-thousand starsystems with only a few gunboats, since those were the only ones we have seen in Vision of the Future. And since they wanted to lure Mara Jade into their clutches, do you think they would have placed an ISD over their fortress? Or an entire legion of Chiss in stormtrooper-armour, since there were so many hostile natives on Niraun?
Why should they for two people? Even if they are a Jedi-Master and a former emperors hand, if those ships are probabely needed elsewhere or they were overconfident, to get them with what they had there?They couldn't call one in afterward? It would've made perfect sense. Why was Nirauan so paralyzed by losing a hangar full of gunboats? Half-ass protection for Thrawn's last great hope?
And how much is this out of the entire time Thrawn spent in the UR? What about the race he failed to understand (mentioned in HttE), which he was forced to destroy (forced, so you have to ask, what were they capable of). Or the other examples i mentioned above? And if his forces were really as small, why would it have made sense to bring them back with him or for Palpatine to call them back, since those territories were still imperial property? According to the HttE-sourcebook Thrawn arrived at the Chimera with a single shuttle. He didn´t brought a fleet with him and no where is mentioned, that he got ships from the UR. Wouldn´t he have taken one of his own ISDs as flagship or his UR-fleet as his core-armada, instead of the Chimera and ships like the Death´s Head, Judicator or Relentless?No--I think that the mapping fleet was probably worth maybe a Death Squadron or two and he left some small outposts and alliances here and there. Red Sky Blue Flame doesn't show anything beyond Thrawn's destroyer. They were probably recalled either by Thrawn during his campiagn, or by Palpatine during his.
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Originally posted by FTeik:
As for the fortress: Its material was said to be able to withstand the fire of the heaviest turbolasers
Evidence? Quotes from TLC and SotP. From SotP, Chapter 14, page 304:
„The shot, that brought that tower down must have had a similar fire-power like the one, that created that ravine.“ If so, it must have been a really impressive explosion. The DeathStar could have done it, but nothing else in the arsenals of New Republic or empire.
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Originally posted by FTeik:
and we have never seen its defense-system used really intent on destroying. Do you really thing Parck and Fel wanted to kill Luke Skywalker and Mara Jade, even when they refused their „invitation“.
Besides, from the book i got the impression (given the conditon of the fortress, there was a touch of decay to it) that the stay of Parck and the others was only temporary (of course, this doesn´t fit with what other authors have made of it).
I already said, that it doesn´t fit, with what other authors have made of it and even if: How important can this base really have been for Thrawn, if he is a man, who spents most of his time aboard a warship? How do you know, the information base there was the only one he had. And would you hide your clone or one of your information bases at a center of activity or on an unsuspicious, while primitive world?Yeah, it was permanent, even though the NEGTC says otherwise, and the same book indicates he'd had his information base with his clone for the last ten years. That's IN VOTF!
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Originally posted by FTeik:
Concerning the milirary expertise: Crix Madine, Tycho Celchu, Arien Cracken and many others were also defectors and traitors to the empire.
No. But it also doesn´t mean, that they are stupid, delusional or whacko-fanatics the way you picture them.So what? Does that change the fact that Thrawn's little cluster of loyal minions are traitors to either the Chiss (exiles; refused to be awknowledged by the ruling families--just like Thrawn) or to the Empire?
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Originally posted by FTeik:
Does this tell us something about their character or their competence?
In that case Thrawn´s powers of conviction as well as his arguments must have been enourmous, especially for people like Fel or Parck. And even despite their loyality to Thrawn, they were willing to consider other options, in case the returned Thrawn wouldn´t „cooperate“ the way they hoped. They weren´t looking forward to it, but they considered it, when asked by Mara. Not the behavior of men, who believe everything Thrawn does will be right.It tells me Thrawn built a movement out of fanatics who went traitor and live for him, according to Stent. Everything is for Thrawn, and you're telling me they're not fanatics?
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Originally posted by FTeik:
And how do you know, if they were called to Palpatines banner or allowed to stay on their posts in the UR?
I thought they went traitor? And „joining“ Palpatine´s war can also mean, that they simply acknowledged his sovereignity over the empire once he revealed himself.Because all Imperial forces were said to join Palpatine's war.
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Originally posted by FTeik:
And even if they were called and didn´t respond, i say right so: A force-whielding lunatic like the emperor, who keeps vast forces hidden in the deep core and allows his empire to crumble for five years doesn´t deserve better
Oh yes (sarcasm). And allowed them to waste desperatedly needed resources in ships and man-power. Not to forget, that he was breeding a new caste of possible competitors for power. And how could he have been Thrawn´s superior, if he was presumed to be dead for five years and never revealed himself?He purified the weak from the strong. And Palpatine is hardly a lunatic. He was Thrawn's superior and destroyed him.
Blablablah.And you're still skipping the fact. They're all fanatical traitors who want to support Thrawn's crusade to rule the galaxy.
You´re argument (which i have already argued) doesn´t become better by repeating it. And if they wouldn´t have turned traitors against Palpatine, they would support HIM in his crusade to rule the universe. Tell me in what way this would have been better?
quote:
Originally posted by FTeik:
We have several sources, including the ISB or the BFC, that the empire established shipyards in every sector it controlled. And even if there were only five or ten, that is still enough to build up sizeable forces over ten/twenty years.
My quotes from DarkJourney. The DFR-sourcebook. The knowledge how the empire worked. Even the Admonitor or the Iron Fist alone are more, than you are willing to grant them. The way you are trying to downsize them is ridiculous.More assumptions. Do you have any real evidence even though the Hand of Thrawn is castle filled with fanatics with hand guns and with a small cache of gunboats?
quote:
Originally posted by FTeik:
Not to forget Thrawn´s quote about the HoT ensuring the final victory of the empire.
Wow, the man must have had an ego as big as the galaxy. With information alone you can´t conquer worlds. You also can´t control them.Do you READ THE BOOK? It was the information in the Hand of Thrawn that was the key. And besides, it contained his clone--of course he thought it was the last hope of the Empire.
quote:
Originally posted by FTeik:
And even if Thrawn´s forces at their height consisted of only one augmented sectorfleet, that would still be more than 30,000 ships. Considering the empire doubeling its military forces between ANH and TESB, that is nothing.
It would almost increase their fleet by fourty percent. That is nothing to spit on. Not to forget, that NR-officials doubted it possible to assemble forces strong enough to engage the IR with its 200 ISDs at the time of HoT.I still see no evidence. And what difference would one augmented sector fleet make? It'd give the Imperial Remnant a little more wiggle room. Not much else though.
Considering the damage he was able to cause with 200 Dreadnoughts it should be obvious, that there would be a huge difference. And according to CTD fleets the size of augmented sectorfleets were used by the NR to patrol dozens of sectors.
You yourself said the following:
They look at the Dodonna calcs and the fact that the Death Star II was 60% constructed in six months with no dedicated shipyard facilities from raw materials and was worth the volume of 24 million ISD and conclude the ISD had to be mother of all warships, in coordinace with WEG.
24 million ISD in 6 months and in secret.
Only raw-materials.
No dedicated ship-yard-facilities.
In a backwater-system of the outer rim.
And you want to tell me, that the empire was incapable to support one of its best with not even a permille of this or that they were unable to establish some of this on their own?
quote:
Originally posted by FTeik:
Logic. At least something has to be there to controll that much space.
Would you please stop mixing the Chiss with Thrawn´s forces.Not really. We know from Force Heretic II that the Unknown Regions are part of the overall galaxy with only hundreds of thousands of stars. That volume if in the galaxy proper would contain 30 billion.
That's worse than a 1/30,000 star ratio between the Unknown Regions and a proportional percentage of the galactic disk.
Hell, the entire Unknown Regions has worse than a 1/300 star ratio to the Chommel Sector, a lightly populated Mid Rim sector.
Let's not stop there. There are no more than 29 inhabited Chiss Worlds.
Rounded down, that is one inhabited planet in the Chiss' sector, for every one thousand, three-hundred, and eighty inhabited worlds in the Chommel Sector.
And according to Galaxy Guide 8 there are billions of stars in the UR. Not hundreds of thousands. Puts your ratio on its head.
And with 36 major worlds and 40,000 colonies the Chommel Sector has 1,110 colonies per major world. Since there were only 50 million colonies in total, what gives us an average of 50 colonies per major world, there have to be sectors with a lot less colonies
quote:
Originally posted by FTeik:
It is unknown. We can´t be sure, if its underdeveloped, otherwise we would know. For all we know, the builders of the corellian system or other highly advanced civilisation could live there in happy, self-chosen isolation. But i´ll admit, that is nit-picking. And i never claimed they are as populated or industrialized as the core. I only asked to consider them to have a part of that abilities (with in official EU isn´t that much, too). And while i hate to quote Darksaber, the warlords of the resource-poor and artificially settled DeepCore were able to built sizeable fleets. Why not a force controlling thirty-thousand systems in the UR?
My mistake. I wanted to say thirty times the size of the IR. That is a lot of space for enemies to hide in.Because we saw the fleets, and they were left-overs recalled during Operation Shadow Hand, mostly. And where's the thirty thousand systems quote come from?
quote:
Originally posted by FTeik:
As for Thrawn not recalling those mapping-forces during his campeign: First he could still operate with one quater of the empire (the part he knew about), second, he wouldn´t have weakened his powerbase in the UR and as a third, he probabely couldn´t because there were still „unknown threats“ (that were suddenly dealt with at the time of DarkJourney.
Can you decide, what you really want? Not so long ago you claimed him to be only interested in his personal power and now this. And he wasn´t leaving willingly, he was banned. And what better way to protect his people, than finding a way to make the resources of the galactic empire available to them?Its directly stated that his primary mission was always the Chiss--if they had an immediate threat he was already putting them in danger by leaving. Therefore the threats had probably been fought aside at the moment. I don't imagine Thrawn leaving thousands of ships when he was so desperate to nab 200 dreadnoughts, and while Palpatine was still quietly syphoning off his forces.
And do you think he was really that desperate to nab 200 Dreadnoughts?
They can´t have been in his original battle-plan since he learned about their existance only in DFR and the clones to crew them or the other stolen ships wouldn´t have had a large impact if we only look at it from the hardware-point of view. And even the loss of the Mount Tantiss-depot would have only been a severe set-back, but no devastating defeat.
quote:
Originally posted by FTeik:
The re-emurgance of Palpatine is another matter: It might be possible, that at the time of TTT it would have been right for Thrawn to say, that his HoT-forces would „ensure the final victory“ of the empire and this wouldn´t be the case, if they were called back one year later.
No. But he made preparations in case of his death. He had his clone, he had his sleeper-cells (still around during HoT), we don´t know, if those forces were really called back and if so, if those forces commanded by Parck really returned and why everybody (Mara, Luke, Parck, Fel, Tierce) believed, that the HoT-forces would give the IR such a push.Yeah, because Thrawn's words are gospel and cannot be violated or the universe will self-destruct. Of COURSE he didn't know what was going to happen the next year. He was fucking dead.
And for all of "Thrawn's predictions must be right" he certainly foresaw Palpatine returning, eh?
quote:
Originally posted by FTeik:
Besides that, how do you call a shipyard back? And if there were several colonies for the families of the imperial crewers of those ships, wouldn´t they have returned with their ships after Palpatine´s final death in EE?
Oh yes, every ship damaged during that „mapping-mission“ had to return to the core.What shipyards and what colonies? Deepdocks are by nature mobile, and Palpatine managed to move populations to the Deep Core without them even knowing where they were. Byss' inhabitants don't know they live in the Deep Core.
And do you think Fel´s family was the only one brought to the UR? Those troopers and crewers must have really been tough to spent more than ten years alone in the UR.
And what have the inhabitants of Byss (who seem to be bad astronomers) to do with the colonists in the UR?
What would make more sense( and is cheaper in the long run): To keep a (by comparison to other regions) far away protectorate dependent on the support from home or to establish an infrastructure, so it becomes self-sufficient?
quote:
Originally posted by FTeik:
Absence of evidence isn´t evidence of absence (God, i like the sound of that).
Is that a creationist I here? You do not assume things exist without evidence to suggest such. Mara's Leap-in-logic notwithstanding. We don't give much credit to Trek characters that make stupid statements and illogical conclusions, so why Mara based on colored dots on a map. All that meant was those stars were cataloged.
We have no hard evidence, that there were huge forces in the UR. We also lack evidence to the contrary. And as i said more than once, it is not only Mara making assumptions based on colored dots on a map.
Mara is a former emperor´s hand, so she should now, how the organisation of her employer worked.
Luke is a former Rebel-Commander. He should also know, how his enemy operated.
Parck and Fel have been there for most of their live. Do you think they would try to make a bluff without substance, since this would be quickly discovered?
I provided numerous quotes and examples, that hint at more, than just a lone fortress.
We know, what the empire was capable of. If it can give somebody like Tarkin four sector-groups or double its forces in the time of three years, why is it so impossible to believe, that part of that was used to establish new properties by one of their best officers?
