29th Century Federation vs. Galactic Empire(Split)

[septesix]

My 2 Cents:

There's Time-Travel, and then there's alternative universe. The Two can be seperate concepts, and one doesn't nessceary lead to another. Saying that Time-travel nessceary produce a alternative universe is BS , because you can't really prove that it does. (Everytime a person timetravel a new universe sprung into Beings ? I find that as hard to believe as the paradox induced by a "solid-timeline" time-travel).

And I also firmly believe that anything without timetravel will ultimatly lose to anything with time-travel, uber-tech aside.

[Evil Jerk]

My 2 Cents:

There's Time-Travel, and then there's alternative universe. The Two can be seperate concepts, and one doesn't nessceary lead to another. Saying that Time-travel nessceary produce a alternative universe is BS , because you can't really prove that it does.

It has been proved in Star Trek with numerous examples available.
Certain times when people THINK their old timelines have been erased do not disprove alternate universes as from their point of view they can't tell.

(Everytime a person timetravel a new universe sprung into Beings ? I find that as hard to believe as the paradox induced by a "solid-timeline" time-travel).

Tough. In Star Trek it happens.
New universes are created with different outcomes with or without temporal incursions, a time traveller wold be simply adding another outcome.
We've seen alternate universes in ST.
We've seen time travellers create alternate universes in ST with the old one still existing.
It might not make much sense in real life, but it's science fiction after all.

[David]

While at SD.net it is generally accepted that the Federation would have difficulty against the Galactic Empire, let's consider a different matchup. How well would the 29th century Federation fare against the Galactic Empire? This is the Federation involved in the "Temporal Cold War". I believe it is the 29th century Federation. If I am wrong let me know.

I'd say the 29th century Feds get their panties handed to them pretty quick.


The 29th Borg on the other hand.....

[David]

You know, this really belongs in SWvsST.

[Mr Bean]

The 29th Borg on the other hand.....

Are dead thanks to Janeway

[Ender]

Time Travel is a concession, plain and simple. All you are doing is saying "Sure, we would loose to you, but if we go back to when you were a bunch of bacteria in mud, then we can beat you!"

It is an admission of defeat. Nothing more.

And how does tonights Enterprise factor in to the time travel stuff? I missed the ep, but I know it showed a devestated bit of future earth.

[Alyeska]

Time Travel is a concession, plain and simple. All you are doing is saying "Sure, we would loose to you, but if we go back to when you were a bunch of bacteria in mud, then we can beat you!"

It is an admission of defeat. Nothing more.

And how does tonights Enterprise factor in to the time travel stuff? I missed the ep, but I know it showed a devestated bit of future earth.

Actually given that time travel is the only thing combat wise we DO know about the 29th century Federation, its about no other known options.

Then again, when all people do in a ST vs SW debate is claim BDZ every Federation planet, that is also a concession. They don't bother debate how the politcal aspect might work out, who might do what, how the technologies would interact.

In other words, in total war, victory is everything. If time travel can assure an easy victory, then that is victory.

[Evil Jerk]

Actually given that time travel is the only thing combat wise we DO know about the 29th century Federation, its about no other known options.

It's not anybody's fault but theirs if their only option is garbage, you know.

Then again, when all people do in a ST vs SW debate is claim BDZ every Federation planet, that is also a concession. They don't bother debate how the politcal aspect might work out,

What political aspect? The Empire has done it before and it'd do it again, and if anybody questions it they die.
With regards to the Trek races.. the Klingons butcher people in hospitals, the Federation uses bioweapons, the Dominion poison worlds, the Breen bomb civilian targets. They're nobody to be judgemental.

In other words, in total war, victory is everything. If time travel can assure an easy victory, then that is victory.

Again, it's not any sort of victory, it's running away to a new universe while the old one gets trampled.
Assuming that time travel achieves their desired results in any case, 90% of the time it goes awry.

[septesix]

Again, it's not any sort of victory, it's running away to a new universe while the old one gets trampled.
Assuming that time travel achieves their desired results in any case, 90% of the time it goes awry.

It's NOT running away to a new universe, if they can return to the future where everything is still there except the Empire (And they can). In THAT universe, They win. and If you think that's cop-out or cheating, well, TOO BAD THE EMPIRE IS TOO PREMITIVE TO DO ANYTHING ABOUT IT!

As for tonight's enterprise epsiode.

It more or less confrim that they are actually a Solid-Timeline Time-travel, more than anything else.

[Master of Ossus]

It's spelled "primitive." Your brain is too primitive to spell words that you wish to emphasize properly.

[septesix]

It's spelled "primitive." Your brain is too primitive to spell words that you wish to emphasize properly.

So I spell bad, big deal, I don't speak english as a native language anyway. Care to actaully Refute my point?

[Master of Ossus]

Okay:

First of all, the future Federation does not appear to exist. Why would they have a monument to a living culture?

Second and more importantly, you seem to imply that because we have seen them move through time they must be able to do so at will and to any point in time. This is incorrect. We have not seen them move more than a thousand years backwards and forewards through time, and even then they could only do so with difficulty (though they could communicate much more easily). As they said, "It's not that simple." The Federation cannot move backwards in time far enough to wipe out the Star Wars universe's technology before it existed. More importantly, even if it could, we have never seen even a scrap of evidence that indicated even indirectly that it could move across the galactic distances required to do anything of merit against the Empire. More importantly than that, they have never shown the ability to move anything other than people and their clothes. Captain Archer did not even bring a weapon backwards and forewards in time, though a simple club would have helped to reduce the risk involved in his mission, as would a knife or a rock. He had literally all the time he needed to craft a primitive weapon, yet he did not. This indicates that their ability to transport material across time is extremely limited. Basically, without a ship, there isn't a whole hell of a lot that the Federation can do against the Empire. They can't even bring weapons with them. That's pretty lousy, when you think about it.

[Alyeska]

Okay:

First of all, the future Federation does not appear to exist. Why would they have a monument to a living culture?

Second and more importantly, you seem to imply that because we have seen them move through time they must be able to do so at will and to any point in time. This is incorrect. We have not seen them move more than a thousand years backwards and forewards through time, and even then they could only do so with difficulty (though they could communicate much more easily). As they said, "It's not that simple." The Federation cannot move backwards in time far enough to wipe out the Star Wars universe's technology before it existed. More importantly, even if it could, we have never seen even a scrap of evidence that indicated even indirectly that it could move across the galactic distances required to do anything of merit against the Empire. More importantly than that, they have never shown the ability to move anything other than people and their clothes. Captain Archer did not even bring a weapon backwards and forewards in time, though a simple club would have helped to reduce the risk involved in his mission, as would a knife or a rock. He had literally all the time he needed to craft a primitive weapon, yet he did not. This indicates that their ability to transport material across time is extremely limited. Basically, without a ship, there isn't a whole hell of a lot that the Federation can do against the Empire. They can't even bring weapons with them. That's pretty lousy, when you think about it.

In VGR Relativity they were beaming through time with sabatoge devices and hand held weaponry. We already know that they can send spacecraft back in time. We also know they can cross the Milky Way in 5 minutes time, that is far faster then SW Hyperdrive.

Do you have proof about how far back in time they can go? Besides, just far enough to kill Palpy is plenty.

[septesix]

Okay:

First of all, the future Federation does not appear to exist. Why would they have a monument to a living culture?

Which is why the monumento wasn't there.

Second and more importantly, you seem to imply that because we have seen them move through time they must be able to do so at will and to any point in time. This is incorrect. We have not seen them move more than a thousand years backwards and forewards through time, and even then they could only do so with difficulty (though they could communicate much more easily). As they said, "It's not that simple."

That quote was refering to the different implication of TimeTravel, not just how difficult to move far away backward or forward in time. We never see them moving anymore than 1000 years because that's all the character in the shows ever see, not because they can't do it.

The Federation cannot move backwards in time far enough to wipe out the Star Wars universe's technology before it existed. More importantly, even if it could, we have never seen even a scrap of evidence that indicated even indirectly that it could move across the galactic distances required to do anything of merit against the Empire. More importantly than that, they have never shown the ability to move anything other than people and their clothes. Captain Archer did not even bring a weapon backwards and forewards in time, though a simple club would have helped to reduce the risk involved in his mission, as would a knife or a rock. He had literally all the time he needed to craft a primitive weapon, yet he did not. This indicates that their ability to transport material across time is extremely limited. Basically, without a ship, there isn't a whole hell of a lot that the Federation can do against the Empire. They can't even bring weapons with them. That's pretty lousy, when you think about it.

That time portal was constructed as an extermly tempoaray (sp?) measure. It's our equvlent of putting together 4 wheels around a wooden box and call it a "Car". Sure it works , but it can hardly compare to the normal tools that are available.

If you want to see them moving something, in "Relativity" the guy (Braxtoon or something) planted a bomb on Voyager without the need of taking a ships to do it.

Also, time-travel is a stratergic weapon. How it can be used to win the war is upt to debate. Come to think of it, I don't even really know if Time-travel alone can accompished it. However, I really hate people saying Trek are taking the easy way out just because they bring up time-travel, instead of debating how that would actucally affect the debate.

So maybe in the end you'd be right, cuz the whole Old Republic/Empire are quite a nature process of a galatic society, that they almost become a Seldon's Plan, and nothing 29th Century Fed can do will distrupt it.

But if it is possbile for the Fed to bring enought technology, and ships to completely eliminated the early Old Republic (please don't say that they can't travel that far back in time.), then Emprie can be really screwed.

[Evil Jerk]

It's NOT running away to a new universe, if they can return to the future where everything is still there except the Empire (And they can). In THAT universe, They win.

I cite the DS9 hologram example again.
The guy has his new planet, but the old one is fucked, same thing here.

and If you think that's cop-out or cheating, well, TOO BAD THE EMPIRE IS TOO PREMITIVE TO DO ANYTHING ABOUT IT!

Too primitive because they don't rely on a useless gimmick that's the temporal equivalent of lying to yourself?

As for tonight's enterprise epsiode.

It more or less confrim that they are actually a Solid-Timeline Time-travel, more than anything else.

Oh, please don't cite an examples so that people who haven't seen it can't detirmine this for themselves.

[Master of Ossus]

1. You people don't get what happened in the episode, do you? When Archer was pulled into the future, he could not be in the past. Since Archer was not in the past, the Federation was never founded. That is why the monument was not there. The UFP had never existed in the alternate timeline. However, in the REAL timeline (the one that Daniels came from), the UFP did exist, and a monument to it had been constructed on the road to the library. However, that is pretty clear evidence that the UFP no longer existed at the time that Daniels was from--it HAD existed in the past, but it no longer did.

2. The fact that ships travelled in time during Voyager is irrelevent. Do we know that the entity existing in the Temporal War can transport a ship back? Of course not. They don't even appear to be able to send clubs and such back in time (though, in all honesty that could easily be seen as stupidity on Archer's part and of his moronic time-friend, both of which have been well established). Also, Braxtoon planted a bomb. He did not take a ship with him. He could have constructed the bomb on board Voyager.

3. I have NO idea how a ship, or a group of ships, from ST could possibly destroy the Old Republic. Seriously.

4. Alyeska, you imply that killing Palpatine is an easy job for a time traveller. In fact it would be exceedingly difficult. Palpatine has a character shield a mile thick (Hello? He's DESTINED to rule the Galaxy.). He is surrounded by guards. He is a Sith Lord. There is really not a lot that a time traveller could do to kill him quickly and easily.

[SirNitram]

I'm just going to ask, while there is evidence some timestreams are locked in place(What is it.. Time Squared with the shuttlecraft and two Picards?), I don't recall any information that's how the 29th or 31st Feds do it. Future's End states it clearly that there are seperate timelines. That Seven Of Nine isn't bumping into herself in Relativity is a good hint there.

While rifts and spinning around the sun might preserve the timeline in one piece, 29th Century technology does not cause such from evidence.

Finally, your lofty plans of killing the Empire prove you didn't watch Year Of Hell(Which is a pity, I liked that one.). It is a vivid reminder that time travel isn't that simple.. Things happen you can't know of. When would you kill Palpatine, exactly? Well, the Federation probably can't know of his manipulations pre-Clone Wars, and to avoid the Seperatists, who are probably loathsome to the Federation(Without touching the Communist argument, the Federation is about bettering yourself and others out of the goodness of your heart. The Seperatists are mostly greedy merchants.), they'd have to do it post-military buildup, when either Dooku or another politician can seize the reigns.

[Ted]

Let's see.

A Timeship, in Future's End, attacks Voyager. Is beaten back by Voyager. Ergo, we can safely assume the technological advancement is as massive as Trekkies might want to claim.

LOL. Good one. They've got a great technological advancement curve going there don't they.

Yeah, it curved so much, itm ended up where they started.

[SirNitram]

Let's see.

A Timeship, in Future's End, attacks Voyager. Is beaten back by Voyager. Ergo, we can safely assume the technological advancement is as massive as Trekkies might want to claim.

LOL. Good one. They've got a great technological advancement curve going there don't they.

Yeah, it curved so much, itm ended up where they started.

To be fair, they did pack enough firepower in a shuttle to threaten a much larger ship. However, the same can be said of the Defiant. To get a better idea of the technological advancement, the episode with the futuristic Borg is a better measuring stick.

[septesix]

It's NOT running away to a new universe, if they can return to the future where everything is still there except the Empire (And they can). In THAT universe, They win.

I cite the DS9 hologram example again.
The guy has his new planet, but the old one is fucked, same thing here.

[/quote]

Is that so? those hologram aren't real, but everything in the "New Universe" is. There's a vast difference between some fake hologram that doesn't existed before a certin events, and a whole universe that was, is and will always be there , even though it seems to be branching off from another universe. Remember , if time-travel does create an alternative timeline, that timeline will have to be equally long as the original one. In Fact, it need to be exactly the same as the old one up until the point where time-travel happened. (At least that is how I see alternative time-line could happen)

but then, that's all assume that time-travel created a new timeline, which I really don't subscribe to.

and If you think that's cop-out or cheating, well, TOO BAD THE EMPIRE IS TOO PREMITIVE TO DO ANYTHING ABOUT IT!

Too primitive because they don't rely on a useless gimmick that's the temporal equivalent of lying to yourself?

[/quote]

too preimitive to be able to stop the timetravel or jump to the new timeline to prevent it. It's not a useless gimmick.

As for tonight's enterprise epsiode.

It more or less confrim that they are actually a Solid-Timeline Time-travel, more than anything else.

Oh, please don't cite an examples so that people who haven't seen it can't detirmine this for themselves.

[/quote]

I though I'd keep it pretty vauge already. I don't want to post a spoiler.

but since someone else did it...

1. You people don't get what happened in the episode, do you? When Archer was pulled into the future, he could not be in the past. Since Archer was not in the past, the Federation was never founded. That is why the monument was not there. The UFP had never existed in the alternate timeline. However, in the REAL timeline (the one that Daniels came from), the UFP did exist, and a monument to it had been constructed on the road to the library. However, that is pretty clear evidence that the UFP no longer existed at the time that Daniels was from--it HAD existed in the past, but it no longer did.

Actaully, it make sense that when Archer was pulled through the timeportal, the timeline was CHANGED, not branched into a new one. That is why Deniels was surprised that he was still here and not disappeared like all his friend and co-workers. Later on Archer finally get back into his time, and the timeline was CHANGED , possbily back to as normal as possible (we wouldn't know since we didn't see Deniels and the future).

I think the key is that while most of the people (here) believe that timeline is something solid and can't be changed, and any difference must therefore be considered a branch of the original one, I consider timeline more like liquid. It's always going to be that much volume in it. but the shape of it will not always be the same. hence I can accept the single-timeline (solid is a very misleading term here, sorry about using it) better than most people.

[SirNitram]

That Daniels still exists is proof the timeline shifted, not the original was changed. The phrase is Grandfather Paradox.

[Slartibartfast]

Time Travel isn't just DUMB, it's a concession. To demonstrate why it is a concession:

"Hey, the Federation can beat the Empire if it was at the technological level lower than it is!"

Does anyone else see what an utterly stupid point that is?

The Enterprise NX-01 would blow the Death Star if it were made of cheese.

[Zoink]

Last TNG episode:

Captain Picard exists in three seperate timelines at the same time: old enterprise with current captain, current enterprise with current captain, and future enterprise with current captain. This would seem to imply that timelines are in fact seperate. If not, these three seperate timelines could not have existed concurrently.

"Fixing" timelines is probably the requirement for returning to your own original timeline.

Either that or Q is a fake and Picard's time travel was an illusion.

[Alyeska]

Last TNG episode:

Captain Picard exists in three seperate timelines at the same time: old enterprise with current captain, current enterprise with current captain, and future enterprise with current captain. This would seem to imply that timelines are in fact seperate. If not, these three seperate timelines could not have existed concurrently.

"Fixing" timelines is probably the requirement for returning to your own original timeline.

Either that or Q is a fake and Picard's time travel was an illusion.

The time traveling had nothing to do with reality. The entire last episode of Star Trek was just something that Q cooked up to test Picard. Didn't you bother and pay attention? The anomoly was formed by Enterprises from 3 different time frames having fired the deflector dish thing at the exact same point. That is a paradox in two ways, first it was only 2 Enterprises and the Pasteur, second because the Enterprises would not have fired if the anomoly had not existed, yet the anomoly existed because of what the Enteprises had done. It is EXTREMELY obvious that Q set up the entire thing. That is how Picard was able to time shift, remember EVERYTHING, yet time shift again and remember what he "missed" while he was actively in another time, yet no one else remembers what had been going on.

[Evil Jerk]

Last TNG episode:

Captain Picard exists in three seperate timelines at the same time: old enterprise with current captain, current enterprise with current captain, and future enterprise with current captain. This would seem to imply that timelines are in fact seperate. If not, these three seperate timelines could not have existed concurrently.

"Fixing" timelines is probably the requirement for returning to your own original timeline.

Either that or Q is a fake and Picard's time travel was an illusion.

The time traveling had nothing to do with reality. The entire last episode of Star Trek was just something that Q cooked up to test Picard. Didn't you bother and pay attention? The anomoly was formed by Enterprises from 3 different time frames having fired the deflector dish thing at the exact same point. That is a paradox in two ways, first it was only 2 Enterprises and the Pasteur, second because the Enterprises would not have fired if the anomoly had not existed, yet the anomoly existed because of what the Enteprises had done. It is EXTREMELY obvious that Q set up the entire thing. That is how Picard was able to time shift, remember EVERYTHING, yet time shift again and remember what he "missed" while he was actively in another time, yet no one else remembers what had been going on.

Not to say it wasn't an illusion, but pointing out that Picard's whole trip was full of inconsistencies doesn't prove it, if that were so, most of TNG and ALL of Voyager and Enterprise would be fake... not that this doesn't have a certain appeal..