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My opinion is still that not all Jedi are capable of all abilities. Only Vader and Luke ever use Force Choke, and only Palpatine and Dooku use Force Lightning. If I were to form a preliminary guesstimate, it would be that Force Lightning is taught primarily as a Sith skill (particularly since it is appears to be a deliberately painful ability, which Jedi would not be philosophically comfortable with), and Force Choke may require a finer degree of telekinetic control than most Jedi are capable of. Remember that Anakin/Vader was considered a very high potential Jedi (the whole midichlorian crap), and that Luke was the only one in the OT able to best him. Even as a youth, Dooku only defeated Anakin because the young Jedi was impetuous and flamboyant in fighting style. It is my belief that not all Jedi are capable of all abilities, and that the Skywalker family should be considered to be near the pinnacle of what Jedi can accomplish. Your "average" Jedi would not be quite so capable, having less focus and strength behind their abilities (or are less attuned to the Force, to put it in a slightly more mystical way).

omegaLancer wrote:Wait Goku from Dragon ball Z is not a skill human.. He a from a race of Alien Supermen. Apparently his race has Power that are not normally associated with the common mortal, in a way he in the class of the Jedi a Paranormal.

A skill normal would be a great fencer, special forces or Martial artist. It doubt full that they could keep up with a Jedi with any standard weapon.

Bruce lee against Obi wan, Minus Obi wan Light saber, now that the what should be the standard. Can an Human like Bruce lee take on a jedi, Doubt it cause a Jedi can actually make those incredible jumps,withstand those massive blows and perform stunts that would come out of a Fictional Martial artist Bag of tricks. Arm now with a light saber, you need a small nuke to finish a jedi off.

Hey, moron, did you not hear Stravo? This is NOT the thread (nor the forum) for DBZ shit discussions. Let it fucking DROP.

My opinion is still that not all Jedi are capable of all abilities.

And you would be correct. Jedi Master Corran Horn, for example, cannot use telekinesis.

Only Vader and Luke ever use Force Choke, and only Palpatine and Dooku use Force Lightning. If I were to form a preliminary guesstimate, it would be that Force Lightning is taught primarily as a Sith skill (particularly since it is appears to be a deliberately painful ability, which Jedi would not be philosophically comfortable with), and Force Choke may require a finer degree of telekinetic control than most Jedi are capable of.

Well, in the EU, we see the Solo twins use Force Lightning (and according to Destiny's Way, force lightning need not be a dark side power in one of its iterations) and a technique called Force Grip that resembles Force Choke; it requires a good degree of telekinetic control, but it is not inherently aggressive (Jaina uses it at one point, IIRC, to hold a friend's body up).

And I wouldn't discount the telekinetic control of the average Jedi; in TPM, we saw Obi-Wan, a relatively inexperienced padawan, telekinetically screwfuck the inner components of battle droids.

I would go against the notion that any power is dark, good or light or ascribe any properties like that to them, rather the only use for force-lighting seems to be to hurt people, and as such can only be used for evil purposes, whilst not being evil itself though.

Durran Korr wrote:

My opinion is still that not all Jedi are capable of all abilities.

And you would be correct. Jedi Master Corran Horn, for example, cannot use telekinesis.
.

Nitpick:
Huh? since when was Corran a master?
He's always Credited as a knight as far as i know.

I'd disagree with the interpretation of Obi-Wan in TPM as being an 'untrained Padawan', his skill and strength in the Force seemed about equal to Qui-Gonn's, and both he and Qui-Gonn seemed to feel that he was ready to take the trials to become a full Jedi.

And keep the fucking Dbz in the fantasy forum.

Crazedwraith wrote:

Durran Korr wrote:

My opinion is still that not all Jedi are capable of all abilities.

And you would be correct. Jedi Master Corran Horn, for example, cannot use telekinesis.
.

Nitpick:
Huh? since when was Corran a master?
He's always Credited as a knight as far as i know.

I could easily be wrong, but I recall him being called a Jedi Master at some point in the NJO.

I'd disagree with the interpretation of Obi-Wan in TPM as being an 'untrained Padawan', his skill and strength in the Force seemed about equal to Qui-Gonn's, and both he and Qui-Gonn seemed to feel that he was ready to take the trials to become a full Jedi.

No, Obi-Wan is quite inferior to Qui-Gon. That's he was so quickly put out of commission during the fight with Maul. He was lucky as hell he made it out alive.

And I never said he was untrained, just relatively inexperienced. He isn't going to have as much knowledge of how to use the Force as the more mature Jedi will, and he still does impressive stuff.

Lightsaber combat with a force-user he may be rusty on, and we didn't see him try the jedi mind-trick(could be you need you Jedi license before your allowed to do that). Apart from that, he diced droids, parried blaster bolts, and ran really fast right alongside Qui-gonn. And Qui-Gonn had fought Maul before, and may have had more of a feel for his style, Obi was coming into the fight cold. Remember, that Quigonn looked like hell after that first skirmish.

Smiling Bandit wrote:

Step 1: assume that TK against inanimate objects is somehow a completely different ability than TK against living creatures. Not just easier, but actually requiring a whole different power. Sort of like thinking that punching a bag uses different muscles than punching a person.

Step 2: try to "prove" that the (presumably) distinct powers required for Force use against a living person must be related to the Dark Side, so Jedi cannot ordinarily use them.

Step 3: dismiss Luke's clear exception to this "rule" by simply babbling that he was teetering toward the Dark Side at the time, even though he was actually very calm and serene, not full of hate and anger.

Step 4: treat every incident of overconfidence or poor tactics as proof of your claims and your moronic assumption that Force TK somehow requires completely different powers when it's used against a human.

In the movies, they rarely appeared to use it in a combat situation. Apparently the novels contradict that. I don't read any Star Wars literature that includes Jedi characters, though.

TPM: User of force assisted movement in the lightsabre duel, force blows against droids
AOTC: Force blows against droids, use of force walls in lightsabre duel
ANH: Only time force has not been used in physical combat, however it was a also a contest of wills between the two similar to what Dooku was foing
ESB: Force assisted movement
ROTJ: Force movement, Luke uses TK to call his lightsabre to him from Vader.

And that is ignoring precog and the possibility that the huge slashes are a result of them trying to knock eachothers weapons out of their hands.

Oh yeah, we never see it in the movies in combat. Nope, nosiree.

It should be noted that TPM and script both indicate that Obi-Wan and Darth Maul engaged in hurling objects at one another with the Force (which the novel describes as "deadly missiles") during their lightsaber duel.

I'm not familiar with these force walls. How were they used?

Demiurge wrote:I'm not familiar with these force walls. How were they used?

In the AotC novellization, at one point, Dooku was manuevering to attempt to flee the fight with Anakin, who threw up a telekinetic barrier (Force wall) that Dooku couldn't pass through--and did so in the middle of an exchange of lightsaber blows, indicating both a great deal of control and the ability to "multitask" his Force skills on Anakin's part. The novellization also notes that Dooku was very surprised by that, and rather impressed.

In the NJO novel where Anakin Solo is returning to Yavin to try to rescue the students at the Jedi Academy from the Peace Brigade/Yuuzhan Vong, that Anakin also uses the Force to throw a number of humans to the ground simultaneously; in the next book, when he has the lambent crystal that allows him to affect the Vong directly with the Force (though weakly), he performs a similar attack that shoves a number of Yuuzhan Vong warriors off-balance and, according to that book, would have killed humans since they would be more vulnerable to the Force.

Kerneth wrote:SNIP

Grazie.

His Divine Shadow wrote:I would go against the notion that any power is dark, good or light or ascribe any properties like that to them, rather the only use for force-lighting seems to be to hurt people, and as such can only be used for evil purposes, whilst not being evil itself though.

A lightsabre can be used for evil purposes as well, depending on the person weilding it. Lightsabres are not inherintly evil however.
What counts is the person and use of their abilities.

Kerneth wrote:

Demiurge wrote:I'm not familiar with these force walls. How were they used?

In the AotC novellization, at one point, Dooku was manuevering to attempt to flee the fight with Anakin, who threw up a telekinetic barrier (Force wall) that Dooku couldn't pass through--and did so in the middle of an exchange of lightsaber blows, indicating both a great deal of control and the ability to "multitask" his Force skills on Anakin's part. The novellization also notes that Dooku was very surprised by that, and rather impressed.

In the NJO novel where Anakin Solo is returning to Yavin to try to rescue the students at the Jedi Academy from the Peace Brigade/Yuuzhan Vong, that Anakin also uses the Force to throw a number of humans to the ground simultaneously; in the next book, when he has the lambent crystal that allows him to affect the Vong directly with the Force (though weakly), he performs a similar attack that shoves a number of Yuuzhan Vong warriors off-balance and, according to that book, would have killed humans since they would be more vulnerable to the Force.

Also, Yoda was using the Force to physically immobilize Dooku (When Dooku tried crushing Obi-Wan and Anakin with that machinery, Yoda had to let Dooku go.) according to the novelization.

Ghost Rider wrote:
So a cop is not going to go for the kill when he KNOWS his life is on the line.

The point of these versus is not whether or not are they fighting to the death....the two parties already know this so answer the question.

The Jedi KNOWING that it's life is at stake is NOT going to go for the kill but mediate or try for a lesser method?

YES. In the movies it is the norm for them not to 'go for the kill' with TK even when their life is on the line. (of course, they were trying to win too, just not in the way you would prefer them to do it ) Just count the number of times their lives have been in danger against the number of times they actually force choked their opponents or TK'ed them into immobility in actual combat.

The 'movement restriction' acribed to the Jedi in the novelisations is a far cry from what the Jedi 'supporters' ascribe to them in most vs fights here.

Darth Wong wrote:HOW TO THINK LIKE A JEDI-HATER

Step 1: assume that TK against inanimate objects is somehow a completely different ability than TK against living creatures. Not just easier, but actually requiring a whole different power. Sort of like thinking that punching a bag uses different muscles than punching a person.

A couple of thoughts:
Since the force is derived from a mystical energy produced by living beings it might not be totally wrong to think that it may be more difficult to affect a living being with it than an inanimate object.

It may also be an issue of concentration. It apparently requires concentration to use the force, particularly more complex maneuvers like TK; and a light side jedi can actually feel the life draining out of his opponent as he crushes his trachea, which is a potential distraction. So perhaps it requires more psychological effort from a light-side jedi to maintain a killing TK move than it does to simply swipe the lightsaber through him. Whereas a sith, who doesn't really care who lives and who dies, wouldn't need to concentrate any more than if he was picking up a bottle of wine.

JodoForce wrote:YES. In the movies it is the norm for them not to 'go for the kill' with TK even when their life is on the line.

Yes, you fucking moron, because they are sure that they can get the job done without resorting to it, and they habitually try to use as little of the Force as they need. Their weakness is overconfidence, but that cannot be assumed against an arbitrarily powerful enemy, which is usually the case in these crossover comparisons.

Their weakness is overconfidence, but that cannot be assumed against an arbitrarily powerful enemy, which is usually the case in these crossover comparisons.

Right, and my point in my first post in this thread is that you can't find out how powerful your opponent is by appearances alone. If Luke faces Son Goku without foreknowledge of him Goku would just look like any other human to him, with neither blaster nor lightsabre. Why WOULDN'T he be overconfident?

Of course, Goku might become overconfident too, so the situation is not purely in his favour. But you can't say that Luke would TK his brain to mush and have done with it--as far as he can see he has no reason to go to such extreme measures, even if for some arbitrary reason he wants to defeat Goku. (never mind it is debatable whether it could be done if he wanted to)

If Luke's opponent were some completely evil fiend, say the original Buu, who attacks mercilessly with full power without provocation, Luke would be fried to atoms before he has a chance to reassess his opponent's strength.

If you stipulate foreknowledge of the opponent your point would be valid, but this is not the case in every debate and is in any case a far departure from in-universe situations, where information rarely comes for free.

JodoForce wrote:

Their weakness is overconfidence, but that cannot be assumed against an arbitrarily powerful enemy, which is usually the case in these crossover comparisons.

Right, and my point in my first post in this thread is that you can't find out how powerful your opponent is by appearances alone. If Luke faces Son Goku without foreknowledge of him Goku would just look like any other human to him, with neither blaster nor lightsabre. Why WOULDN'T he be overconfident?

Of course, Goku might become overconfident too, so the situation is not purely in his favour. But you can't say that Luke would TK his brain to mush and have done with it--as far as he can see he has no reason to go to such extreme measures, even if for some arbitrary reason he wants to defeat Goku. (never mind it is debatable whether it could be done if he wanted to)

If Luke's opponent were some completely evil fiend, say the original Buu, who attacks mercilessly with full power without provocation, Luke would be fried to atoms before he has a chance to reassess his opponent's strength.

If you stipulate foreknowledge of the opponent your point would be valid, but this is not the case in every debate and is in any case a far departure from in-universe situations, where information rarely comes for free.

I see...so Jodo decides that the fights in vs are not to the death?

They are just two combatants fighting to see who's superior but not to any sort of finality because of plot...right.

So are they going to dispute over economical knowledge, or perhaps a smattering of chess while they are at it.

...nice to see that you abide and use the same moronic tactics used by fanwhores and morons who think that plot elements have shit in an objective debate.

Fight to the death != pull out your trump card immediately. A Jedi can kill someone by force TK but he may choose to use his lightsabre instead for whatever reason, in fact, have chosen to do so 9 times out of 10 in combat situations (i.e. not counting Vader choking bridge officers for dramatic effect). Are you being deliberately silly or what?

Oh, so fight to the death doesn't mean to utilize all your resources and kill the opposing side?

I'm sorry, they must be oblige the rules of fair play

Are you being deliberatly stupid or what?

I have given my answer already--the Jedi have fought to the death many times before and they seldom 'utilized all their resources' as you imagined them to do.

Hmmm...and yet in a versus arena it's a sum total of their abilities, not this Golden Mean bullshit you seem to want it to display.

There are many kinds of possible vs arenas. If you want to assume it's one kind of arena first ask the TPer whether he agrees with you.