Power of Antimatter

[Spanky The Dolphin]

since Imp ships are powered by "hypermatter"

yes, godamned Science-Fiction writers making things up .

Heh, next thing you know they'll be traveling faster than light and have shields, too!

[Asst. Asst. Lt. Cmdr. Smi]

Well, what do they mean by "destroy"? Destroy could be just something like "Break in two", or perhaps even "block the sun out". You're being too general. You're thinking all moons have the same size ss ours, and that all planetary explosions have similar power.

Bad plot device it is, but it's better than "An ounce of antimatter will blow the crust off the planet!"

[Oddity]

People here seem to think that Federation ships simply can't generate the power to take on Imp ships, since Imp ships are powered by "hypermatter" , and Federation ships are powered by antimatter. But in one of the Star Wars books, one of Han Solo's friends at the Imperial Academy blows up a whole moon with a small antimatter bomb. It took the whole death star to blow up a planet. If hypermatter is so powerful, why didn't they jsut use a small hypermatter bomb to blow up Aldeeran?

The trolls must have taken the hint from AotC and began cloning themselves.

[EmperorMing]

People here seem to think that Federation ships simply can't generate the power to take on Imp ships, since Imp ships are powered by "hypermatter" , and Federation ships are powered by antimatter. But in one of the Star Wars books, one of Han Solo's friends at the Imperial Academy blows up a whole moon with a small antimatter bomb. It took the whole death star to blow up a planet. If hypermatter is so powerful, why didn't they jsut use a small hypermatter bomb to blow up Aldeeran?

The trolls must have taken the hint from AotC and began cloning themselves.

Must. Destroy. Darkstar. Template. Quickly...

[NecronLord]

How do you know the size of said moon, it may have been about the size of Phobos

oh and maybe Hypermatter doesn't go BANG!!!

[Patrick Ogaard]

Were I to design a mascot moon, to be placed in geostationary orbit above a military academy and to be decorated with the crest or emblem of the academy, I know what I would do:

Make the moon a relatively thin disk or similarly flat structure, essentially a giant pizza in space: it saves on mass and construction time, and the reduced mass means the moon can have a useful size without becoming too massive to comfortably tractor into the proper orbit with something like a cargo lighter.

Place a single gram of antimatter near the center of the moon's disk and you might well crack the disk apart: the parts may stay near each other and would eventually coalesce into a fresh moon over the course of millenia, but just try to paint the school emblem on that new structure.

Another option is to take a small asteroid and place it in geostationary orbit as nothing more than an anchor for a large projection screen structurally analogous to a solar sail. A ground-based projector could easily shoot the school's emblem onto the screen, or substitute inspirational messages.

Neither option requires anything particularly huge in the moon department.

[Andrew Joshua Talon]

(Scene of Federation fleet engaging a Super Star Destroyer. The Sovereign dramatically flies by.)

"This is Captain Talon of the Sovereign, I'm taking command of the fleet! Target all of your weapons onto the following coordinates: Fire on my command."

"Sir? The coordinates you have indicated do not appear to be a vital system."

"Trust me, Musey."

"The fleet's responded sir, they're standing by."

(Waits for a moment while watching a Sabre and a Steamrunner explode from the turbolaser fire)

"FIRE!"

(The Sovereign fires it's powerful phasers and torpedos into the select spot. The Enterprise, Thunderchild, Yeager, Endeavor, Appalachia, Budapest, and Akira all follow suit. The weak spot flares into an plume of ignited gas as explosions begin turning the surface of the SSD into a raging inferno. The main fusion reactors finally blow, destroying the SSD in a massive blast which the Federation fleet narrowly escapes.)

[Ghost Rider]

SSD Commander: What the hell are these Savages trying to do?

Ensign: I don't know sir, but I believe they think we have the same unstable engine cores their own ships have.

In the end all ship dead, SSD commander goes back to playing his Sega Dreamcast he captured on a raid.

[Smalleyjedi]

thin disk doesnt work......he was trying to blow the emblem off but leave the moon intact. A thin disk would just cruch under enough to remove the middle of it.

[Evil Jerk]

(Scene of Federation fleet engaging a Super Star Destroyer. The Sovereign dramatically flies by.)

"This is Captain Talon of the Sovereign, I'm taking command of the fleet! Target all of your weapons onto the following coordinates: Fire on my command."

"Sir? The coordinates you have indicated do not appear to be a vital system."

"Trust me, Musey."

"The fleet's responded sir, they're standing by."

(Waits for a moment while watching a Sabre and a Steamrunner explode from the turbolaser fire)

"FIRE!"

(The Sovereign fires it's powerful phasers and torpedos into the select spot. The Enterprise, Thunderchild, Yeager, Endeavor, Appalachia, Budapest, and Akira all follow suit. The weak spot flares into an plume of ignited gas as explosions begin turning the surface of the SSD into a raging inferno. The main fusion reactors finally blow, destroying the SSD in a massive blast which the Federation fleet narrowly escapes.)

Crewman: Captain! That's a Super Star Destroyer, not a Borg Cube! Quit daydreaming!

Captain: Well I.. uh.. er..

Crewman: They're firing on us!!

*Sovereign goes KABOOM, quickly followed by the rest of the cute little Feddie fleet*

[THEHOOLIGANJEDI]

(Scene of Federation fleet engaging a Super Star Destroyer. The Sovereign dramatically flies by.)

"This is Captain Talon of the Sovereign, I'm taking command of the fleet! Target all of your weapons onto the following coordinates: Fire on my command."

"Sir? The coordinates you have indicated do not appear to be a vital system."

"Trust me, Musey."

"The fleet's responded sir, they're standing by."

(Waits for a moment while watching a Sabre and a Steamrunner explode from the turbolaser fire)

"FIRE!"

(The Sovereign fires it's powerful phasers and torpedos into the select spot. The Enterprise, Thunderchild, Yeager, Endeavor, Appalachia, Budapest, and Akira all follow suit. The weak spot flares into an plume of ignited gas as explosions begin turning the surface of the SSD into a raging inferno. The main fusion reactors finally blow, destroying the SSD in a massive blast which the Federation fleet narrowly escapes.)

Crewman: Captain! That's a Super Star Destroyer, not a Borg Cube! Quit daydreaming!

Captain: Well I.. uh.. er..

Crewman: They're firing on us!!

*Sovereign goes KABOOM, quickly followed by the rest of the cute little Feddie fleet*

A more accurate portrayal of that battle. I don't think the Empire is as Stupid as the Borg to have weaknesses that are that easy to target.

[Alyeska]

(pops in thread for the first time, compeltely ignores the entire contents except the first post)

Nice pic in your sig, stupid thread.

[SPOOFE]

Some possible ideas:

-Han was being a bit exaggerative about the amount of antimatter. Perhaps it was more than just one gram of antimatter, and he simply said "one gram" to mean "a small amount"?

-The moon itself wasn't destroyed, just the Imperial emblem on the surface (or a significant part of it, destroyed or obscured by debris from the explosion)?

-That the antimatter explosion accidently torched off some other volatile object or substance - such as a power plant or some such - nearby?

[Spanky The Dolphin]

Mako Spince (or something like that) intended to just blow up the seal on Carida's Mascot Moon, but he blew up the entire moon by accident.

[Connor MacLeod]

Actually, it's something more like 1.80E+14 joules, since the gram of antimatter annhilates an equal quantity of matter (the total amount is two grams total.) This is something like 43 kT. This bumps up the size of the asteroid moon to around 350 meters in diameter. This makes it 10X bigger than our ISS, but it's angular size is still only 0.0097 degrees (0deg33'25.51".) For reference, the Moon has an angular size of 0.5 degrees. You'd need a telescope that could magnify up to 51X in order for it to look as 'big' as the Moon. In order to actually see anything on it, you'd need a telescope that could magnify 510 - 765X (Assuming 10 - 15 times beyond the basic value . . . like looking at the Moon with a pair of binoculars.) So you'd need really hefty visual enhancement gear. Short story, the writer of the book is an effing idiot.

I see no reason to assume the writer is an idiot.

1.) Given the required distance for an earthlike planet and geostationary orbit (which is also needed if the moon is to remain where it is), one would probably not WANT all that massive an object because of the potential influence of gravity on the surface. As to how massive would be "too massive" I don't know, but a moon a few hundred meters in diameter probably owuld not cause much in the way of problems.

2.) We know nothing of how big the "emblem" of the Academy is relative to the moon itself. It must be pretty large if the accident could result in shattering the moon, yet that same amount was intended to simply blow off the seal.

3.) You obviously have no knowledge of SW binocular technology:

http://www.starwars.com/databank/techno ... rs/eu.html

A simple pair of handheld electrobinoculars (like the ones Luke used on Tatooine) can provide up to 500x magnification. Larger versions can be significantly more powerful (electrotelescopes, similar but much larger than electrobinoculars) can measure things up to several light-minutes away.

4.) Remember that its only ASSUMED that the Academy's symbol be visible to the naked eye.. that may not be true (it may not even be required to be seen from the planet.. that is simply assumed.)

[Kuja]

If I were making a 'mascot moon' it would be pretty damn small, just a rock big enough to hold the seal, not a damn Yavin 4.

[Connor MacLeod]

Here's the incidetn as put forth in Han's Memory from "The Hutt Gambit"

*****

"That night, while Han plotted orbits and worked on ihs "Economics of Hyperspace Troop Movmeent" presentation, Mako broke into Professor Cal-Meg's physics lab. He stole a gram of antimatter, then a small, one-man shuttle and a spacesuit from the Academy shuttle hanger, and took off.

Landing on the small planetoid that was Carida's nearest of three satellites, Mako planted the antimatter capsule in the middle of the huge Academy Seal that had been laser-carved into the satellite decades ago, back when Carida was still a training planet for the troops of the now-vanished Republic. Mako triggered the antimatter explosion from a safe distance in spac, intending to blast the seal right off the face of the little moon.

But Mako had underestimated the power of the antimatter he'd stolen. The entire satellite blew up in a cataclysmic diplay that Han and the otehr cadets witnessed from the planet's surface.

Mako was immediately one of the prime suspects. He'd pulled so many pranks in his time, caused so much mayhem, that the officers began checking on him alomst before the debris from the shattered satellite had either plunged planetward or drifted into alignment, forming a disjointed ring around Carida."

The Hutt Gambit, page 55-56.

*****

Really, I don't see what is so "pseudoscientific" about it.

[Kuja]

hmmm....

[greenmm]

Here's the incidetn as put forth in Han's Memory from "The Hutt Gambit"

*****

"That night, while Han plotted orbits and worked on ihs "Economics of Hyperspace Troop Movmeent" presentation, Mako broke into Professor Cal-Meg's physics lab. He stole a gram of antimatter, then a small, one-man shuttle and a spacesuit from the Academy shuttle hanger, and took off.

Landing on the small planetoid that was Carida's nearest of three satellites, Mako planted the antimatter capsule in the middle of the huge Academy Seal that had been laser-carved into the satellite decades ago, back when Carida was still a training planet for the troops of the now-vanished Republic. Mako triggered the antimatter explosion from a safe distance in spac, intending to blast the seal right off the face of the little moon.

But Mako had underestimated the power of the antimatter he'd stolen. The entire satellite blew up in a cataclysmic diplay that Han and the otehr cadets witnessed from the planet's surface.

Mako was immediately one of the prime suspects. He'd pulled so many pranks in his time, caused so much mayhem, that the officers began checking on him alomst before the debris from the shattered satellite had either plunged planetward or drifted into alignment, forming a disjointed ring around Carida."

The Hutt Gambit, page 55-56.

*****

Really, I don't see what is so "pseudoscientific" about it.

Not really difficult to explain:

The author has very little physics knowledge, and thinks that antimatter is a really powerful explosive. His theory is that Mako assumed he was getting the equivelent of TNT, but picked up a Super C-4/Octol combination.

At best, assuming 100% of the antimatter reacted with matter, we're talking about an absolute maximum reaction equivelent to a 43.2 kT warhead.

So, what really happened?

-- he misread the capsule label/readout, and actually had a lot more antimatter (likely since the majority of the bulk should have been in the housing and field generators, so he wouldn't be able to necessarily tell by heft alone). If he'd had, say, 1 kg of AM, that would be a max yield of 43.2 MT.
-- he got the wrong capsule, and actually picked up hypermatter. Granted, 1 g of hypermatter will still release just as much energy as 1 g of antimatter... but if the hypermatter sample had the same volume as 1 g of normal antimatter, and the capsule was fitted with an antigrav/repulsor system so that its apparant weight/mass was equivelent to 1 g of AM, then there would have been a lot more mass to create the reaction. Assuming you had 1 ton of hypermatter in the capsule, that would give you a max yield of 43.2 GT.
-- he not only had more AM/hypermatter in the capsule, he was aware that he had more. The writer simply screwed up on the amount used. Mako's mistake, perhaps, was in underestimating how much of the AM/hypermatter would react with the moon's surface.

Any other thoughts?

[Connor MacLeod]

Ummm.. No. You appear to be missing the point. Its a gram of antimatter. It supposedly causes a 43 kt explosion at most. This is enough to fragment (as the quote describes) a moon several hundred meters in diameter (lets say 250-300 meters) at roughly 30% to about 60% efficiency, by my estimates. I fail to see how this is inconsistent with what we know (which is, to my knowledge, the references I myself have posted.) We know the distance the moon was at, we know the yield, we can approximate the effect.. we do not know how big the moon was.

So where exactly does the contradiction exist, again? Is there some compelling reason that the moon MUST be tremendously larger than several hundred meters in diameter? If so, please provide the proof to validate this. To my knowledge (and my not inconsiderable database) no such contradiction exists.

[Publius]

The incident was originally described in passing in the Dark Empire Sourcebook, on page 45, as such:

That average cadet just happened to be Han Solo and the two of them became great friends, horsing around and pulling pranks of all kinds. Of course, one of those pranks got Mako into enough trobule to put him where he is today. Stealing a gram of antimatter from the physics lab, he had intended to blast the Academy Seal off the surface of the "mascot moon," a rocky planetoid in high orbit. Instead, the blast destroyed the planetoid.

Page 46 of the same text features an excerpt from the transcript of the final session of the expulsion hearings against Cadet Spince. Attendant are Cadet Spince; Chief Technical Proctor Gandl Vorkosigge; Physics Professor Lucinta Cal-Meg, Student Adviser; Academy Dean Horace Wyrmyr; and The Honourable Simon Greyshade, Imperial Senator for Vorzyd V, president:

Greyshade: What's the prognosis on the planetoid fragments anyway?

Cal-Meg: Not very good. The orbit still isn't stable either, so we don't know how much will burn up on reentry.

Wyrmyr: Gone! The very symbol of the Academy is gone! Fifty centuries --

Greyshade: Thank you Dean Wyrmyr, we've seen the reports.

Cal-Meg: The placement was very precise if I say so myself...

Wyrmyr: Enough, of this. He blew up a moon!

Greyshade: Well, that's what this proceeding is all about. Cadet Spince, do you have anything to say for yourself?

Spince: (pause) That I'm really sorry ... and that I'll never do it again.

Greyshade: (Stifling laugh) That I'll believe.

Vorkosigge: Now listen here young man. This is your future at stake...

Spince: I guess I miscalculated....

Cal-Meg: You realize you could have vaporized the whole orbital lab when you did this, don't you?

Spince: Well, not really. I collected only a few nanograms at a time -- the antimatter was scheduled for detonation any --

Vorkosigge: Detonation at the armaments range. Anything could have gone wrong!

Spince: -- anyway. I took precautions.

Summarised, this conclusively demonstrates (a.) that Cadet Spince knew precisely how much antimatter he had, as he quietly collected it in small installations of a few nanogrammes each; (b.) that Cadet Spince was using antimatter, not hypermatter, as he and the Academy's chief technical proctor specifically refer to it as such, and further demonstrated by the fact that Cadet Spince collected it meticulously and with great care; and that (c.) the planetoid was of such small mass as to be shattered by detonation of a gramme of antimatter, and that the explosion caused some fragments to assume decaying orbits.

Note that Dean Wyrmyr's statement suggests that the Seal on the moon is significantly older than The Hutt Gambit states, although the age is implicitly given, and not explicitly.

Comparing this text with that from The Hutt Gambit, it appears clear that whilst Cadet Spince carefully collected and placed the antimatter, he miscalculated the damage it would cause the planetoid. It appears that the force of the explosion caused more structural damage than he had anticipated. There is nothing scientifically offensive about the text as it is, and there exists a corresponding lack of need for an ad hoc justification of the event.

Publius

[greenmm]

Several hundred meters?

And just how was this "moon" staying in orbit, or even high enough to be visible? The whole point of a "mascot" moon would be to have it visible without extensive amplification, right? So, show me an object that is only several hundred meters long, but can easily be detected andhave the details easily seen at a few hundred kilometers above the surface of a planet..

[Publius]

That the mascot moon's features were easily visible from the ground is an unsubstantiated assumption on your part.

Publius

[Ghost Rider]

Pfft I chalk it up to something along the line of STORYLINE...serioulsy have the times when one just uses it that way it explains so much more, than to try to scientifically understand when a writer with almost no real basis is trying to sound larger than he/she is.

[greenmm]

That the mascot moon's features were easily visible from the ground is an unsubstantiated assumption on your part.

Publius

as is your assumption that the planetoid was only several hundred meters in diameter.

In fact, try pluggin that size into Wong's asteroid calculator on his site.

1.5g of antimatter would have enough energy to fall nearly midway between the granite and nickel-iron levels for cratering a 300m diameter asteroid. To melt said asteroid would take 20.8 to 33.9 MT, and vaporizing it 103.8 to 202.1 MT.

Granted, that doesn't rule out a flat, thin disc, but if it's being referred to as a planetoid, then it's probably closer to being a sphere than a disc or an irregular lump.

Definition of planetoid (per The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language: Fourth Edition. 2000):

planetoid

SYLLABICATION: plan·e·toid
PRONUNCIATION: pln-toid
NOUN: See asteroid (sense 1).

asteroid

SYLLABICATION: as·ter·oid
PRONUNCIATION: st-roid
NOUN: 1. Astronomy Any of numerous small celestial bodies that revolve around the sun, with orbits lying chiefly between Mars and Jupiter and characteristic diameters between a few and several hundred kilometers. Also called minor planet, planetoid.

At a conservative estimate, then, a planetoid needs to be at least 2-3 kilometers in diameter, not several hundred meters. That bumps the cratering energies to MT values, and melting and vaporization energies to GT values.... none of which can be generated unassisted with 1.5g of antimatter.