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Posted: **2003-09-03 06:48am**

You're drawing wildly overblown conclusions from the actions of a single individual, Marina. Her acceptance does not harm anyone apart from bruising some sensibilities, but that is not objective harm. We don't live in the age of mercenary armies anymore, not in the West anyway. Those times are far into the past. And as much as it might offend you, many of the people who join the US armed forces do so in order to get education benefits and other such, which you would probably classify as mercenary behavior. But they do love their country, and if an opportunity comes their way that they can take advantage of, and that does not involve betraying their country, why should they not take it?

The media made Lynch into a phenomenon, and this offer is a result of that. I'm not going to count her taking advantage of it against her, unless she lies about what happened. If she does that, then I'll condemn her. Being a soldier these days is just a job, not the shining higher calling you make it out to be. Soldiers, aside from the common respect due for someone who risks his life to protect others, should not be put on an additional pedestal.

Edi

Posted: **2003-09-03 06:57am**

Edi wrote:You're drawing wildly overblown conclusions from the actions of a single individual, Marina. Her acceptance does not harm anyone apart from bruising some sensibilities, but that is not objective harm. We don't live in the age of mercenary armies anymore, not in the West anyway.

Actually, we're rapidly entering one. All the signs are there; the technology favours small, professional armies--and what, exactly, makes a professional army different from a mercenary force? Well, in theory it is nationally homogenous. But in many cases this is not true. Then you have love of country as the primary guide, either among those from the central nation, or ingrained in those joining from other nations; love of country, combined with the camraderie of the unit. This may very well be sufficient, but the problem is that the idea of the Nation-State is becoming less important, and is becoming less pressed in society; we are less interested in nationalism and less caring of countries.

And if one does not love one's nation--Twenty billion dollars for Washington D.C.? What's to stop our divisions from someday responding to the highest bidder? Purely a moral foundation of principle within their own ranks, which may be eroding. Indeed, I could draw to much from one example--but I could also use this singular example to make light of the potential future dangers of the phenomenom. I don't think we need to fear it now, I do not think the Republic is much threatened yet. But the future always looms.

The media made Lynch into a phenomenon, and this offer is a result of that. I'm not going to count her taking advantage of it against her, unless she lies about what happened. If she does that, then I'll condemn her. Being a soldier these days is just a job, not the shining higher calling you make it out to be. Soldiers, aside from the common respect due for someone who risks his life to protect others, should not be put on an additional pedestal.

Edi

I would submit that the failure to properly respect soldiers by society is a symptom of a wider failing of the current societal outlook, and the fact that even a soldier disdains that respect is a sign of how thoroughly certain aspects of western civilization have become enervated by specious theories and excessive indulgence. Lo! That the Germans had won at the Marne! We need some steel in our veins, yet!

Posted: **2003-09-03 07:04am**

The Duchess of Zeon wrote:I would submit that the failure to properly respect soldiers by society is a symptom of a wider failing of the current societal outlook, and the fact that even a soldier disdains that respect is a sign of how thoroughly certain aspects of western civilization have become enervated by specious theories and excessive indulgence. Lo! That the Germans had won at the Marne! We need some steel in our veins, yet!

I don't disdain the proper respect due soldiers. Having been one myself, I have a good understanding of what is involved, and I respect those who wear the uniform for what they do, and I also appreciate the respect given to soldiers, having been in the position to have it. Hell, my best friend is a professional soldier. What I disdain is putting soldiers on a pedestal above and beyond the due proper respect, and giving them mindless, hero-worship adulation. You're somewhat guilty of the latter sometimes.

Edi

Posted: **2003-09-03 07:35am**

Edi wrote: I don't disdain the proper respect due soldiers. Having been one myself, I have a good understanding of what is involved, and I respect those who wear the uniform for what they do, and I also appreciate the respect given to soldiers, having been in the position to have it. Hell, my best friend is a professional soldier. What I disdain is putting soldiers on a pedestal above and beyond the due proper respect, and giving them mindless, hero-worship adulation. You're somewhat guilty of the latter sometimes.

Edi

I would hardly call it mindless; and I don't apply it merely to soldiers. I quite simply think that anyone who is willing to sacrifice themselves for their country is worthy of adulation.

And, yes, this is an off-topic thread and I was intentionally being melodramatic, I confess. As I wrote my first post I was thinking "hrmm, can I get a Cato The Elder effect going here?" -- If you want me to be serious with the news, post it to N&P.

Posted: **2003-09-03 07:51am**

The Duchess of Zeon wrote: I would hardly call it mindless; and I don't apply it merely to soldiers. I quite simply think that anyone who is willing to sacrifice themselves for their country is worthy of adulation.

I give such people the respect they are due, which is more than the average citizen merits usually. Still falls short of adulation, though.

The Duchess of Zeon wrote:And, yes, this is an off-topic thread and I was intentionally being melodramatic, I confess. As I wrote my first post I was thinking "hrmm, can I get a Cato The Elder effect going here?" -- If you want me to be serious with the news, post it to N&P.

This started as a serious enough thread, despite being in OT. I treat all serious threads equally, regardless of what forum they are in. Now if a thread is not intended to be serious or is somewhat serious but was posted with another intent (such as the Whale Flatulence thread; serious content, yes, but that more of a side benefit), they get dealt with accordingly too. I'll keep this in mind for future reference, though.

Edi

Posted: **2003-09-03 09:15am**

Isnt mercenary grabbing for ones own betterment and rights the joyful basis of the american dream?
You seem to think what she has done is deplorable, I however do not. She did not ask for this attention and is simply making the best of the situation she is in, perhaps even something that military training aided her in realising

. Its very easy to say she is dishonouring those that fell in combat, but is it not also the media that have dishonoured them and those that sent them out there to fight in another country to depose a dictator that america placed in a position of power in the first place?

Posted: **2003-09-03 10:25am**

The Duchess of Zeon wrote: It affects her comrades and her service, both of whom she is dishonouring, and the relatives of those of her comrades whom died in that action and did not receive any recognition at all for it.

Hey, if my humvee crashed 5 seconds into the fight and I ended up a national hero, and got a 1 million book deal offer, I'd have to be braindead
not to accept it. If I recall, there's a new book out by Mike Durant:

And I just finished reading a book by John Peeters and
John Nichol, who became celebrities in Britain after their
Tornado was shot down after they royally fucked up their
bomb run and ended up in a climb right into a SAM zone, with
iron bombs still hanging on their plane.

Posted: **2003-09-03 10:43am**

This reminds me of that fairy tale Andy McNab told in 'Bravo Two Zero'. If an SAS soldier can do it, I'd be very surprised if Lynch didn't spruce up her capture into a story of heroism triumph blah blah blah make me vomit.

Asher, fluent in Arabic and familiar with the ways of the desert Arabs, travelled to Iraq 10 years after the Gulf War and re-traced the steps of the SAS patrol, finding Bedouin eyewitnesses to events. There is an almost comical disparity between McNab and Ryan's version of the mission and the version Asher reports. According to McNab, when the patrol was discovered, it was by Iraqi soldiers and a furious firefight ensued with the SAS men downing a dozen or more men before fleeing. According to Asher, the mission was "compromised" by three Arab locals, one of them a man in his 70s, and the SAS wisely decided that discretion was the better part of valour and withdrew. According to Ryan, on his lonely journey to the Syrian border, he was obliged to kill two Iraqis, one with his bare hands. According to Asher's sources, he omitted to mention this at his initial de-briefing. One of Asher's aims in his book is to rehabilitate the reputation of Vince Phillips, one of the dead. Most readers of this book and of the tale told by the Arab who discovered Phillips's body will probably decide that he has done so. Yet Asher does not seem motivated by a desire to denigrate the heroism of McNab and Ryan. We get the heroes we want and Asher understands that the Rambo-like exploits they reported were what we, and the media, demanded of them. Their real heroism, respected by both Asher and the Bedouins to whom he spoke, lay in their powers of endurance and determination when utterly isolated and alone, hundreds of miles inside enemy territory. In The Real Bravo Two Zero Asher has written a far better and more humane book than either of the two he deconstructs, but he still seems to understand why McNab and Ryan produced the books they did

Posted: **2003-09-03 07:26pm**

MKSheppard wrote:
CmdrWilkens wrote: Sometime around where people who showed two cents more worth of tactical sense than her died but didn't get the recognizition they deserved since she had to get captured, stupid girl.
If I recall, she got taken out early, and wasn't able to contribute to the fight.

Part of the problem here, as I understand it, is that this unit was basically completely unprepared in any way shape or form to take fire. Their weapons were malfunctioning (or they weren't firing them back because they were shaking in terror). Thus her capture is the direct result of either gross incompetence (on both her part and her superior's part) or gross cowardice with goes directly against the Code of Conduct.

Now let me clarify that once taken prisoner she lived up to the expectaitons and I have no right to even begin to comment on what that is like HOWEVER the circumstances which landed her there rightly deserve chastisement.

Posted: **2003-09-03 07:43pm**

Marina... not everyone has your high moral standards. While we WVian's are the first to say we've seen enough of her, there's not one of us who'd 'Pillor her out of town", because she's accepted a book deal.

Personally, I'd take the money and run, too. Why? Because even $550k after taxes not only would buy a house (trailers are cheap) it would buy the land to put it on, the pipes to connect it to 'town water', all the furniture, and a car to boot!

And where the hell'd you get the idea that we're a Drafted Army? Lynch, like many young WVians joined for two reasons.
1. We're patriotic that way. Just go compare our percentage of military service to any other states, you'll see per capita, we've got the largest.
2. Money for College. Yea, it's mercenary, but when it's a couple thousand a month for college, and you're lucky to find a minimum wage part-time job in this state, that military college fund look REAL nice, especially for anyone fresh outta high school with no job skills or idea what they want to do with their life.

Which takes me back to the $1mil. Lynch's basically crippled, just got an Honorable Discharge to. She can't work for right now, but that money could really help her out if she's unable to get any use out of those legs. It'll help the medical bills too.

So, Marina, while I respect your right to state your opinion, I'm exercising my right to tell you you're wrong.

Posted: **2003-09-03 08:44pm**

To Marina:

The US Military might seem like a purely mercenary force, but mercenaries do not get tried for treason whenever they switch sides.

As for Lynch: Blah. Who cares. If she lies, she'll just be doing herself in.

Posted: **2003-09-03 09:54pm**

Edi wrote: This started as a serious enough thread, despite being in OT. I treat all serious threads equally, regardless of what forum they are in. Now if a thread is not intended to be serious or is somewhat serious but was posted with another intent (such as the Whale Flatulence thread; serious content, yes, but that more of a side benefit), they get dealt with accordingly too. I'll keep this in mind for future reference, though.

Edi

Any thread dealing with "Celebrity Crime" as I lump things like the Kobe Bryan case, the Elizabeth Smart kidnapping, the Peterson murder trial, etc, or even, yes, the Jessica Lynch POW story--they're all totally worthless, being:

1. Of absolutely no value or interest to anyone except the vapid, as they elevate a single person and turn them into the sole attraction where these sorts of incidents happen constantly and deserve attention as broad trends.

2. So over-reported in the regular media that I rarely watch the regular media, preferring the internet. It infuriates me to see people post this worthless and inane trash on message boards, particularly ones where there might be some intelligent discourse.

Yes, the Jessica Lynch story is broadly in the same category, a "sweetheart" story existing solely to elevate a single person into a media darling and ignore all the other POWs of the conflict, or hostages taken by terrorists, or POWs of other conflicts, etc--just like the elevation of certain murder cases because of the people involved in them. It's utterly disgusting and totally inane.

I nearly held by tongue, deleting the post like I sometimes do others--but realizing how pointless and vapid the issue was, and, indeed, knowing that the gist of it was true--that she'd sold out--I just decided to let loose a nice, good rant on the disgusting commercial culture which assuaged myself but was really quite overblown in every respect, I fully grant. I consider the subject worthy of nothing more, however, so I have no regrets in doing so.

In conclusion I wish all such threads would be posted in the HOS, because they are material worthy only of a sewer.

Posted: **2003-09-03 10:00pm**

Note, I did not say that we have a draft army--quite the contrary, we do not. I just think that we have an army which is a professional army and thus verges on the brink of being mercenary. This is something I do very much believe, and do indeed think is a potential problem for the future. Love of country must always be higher than anything else in the hearts of soldiers, or else that other thing they care about more, might become their lure. And we have started to lure in soldiers with money; thus the problem. Tradition, of course, sustains, but can only endure for so long.

Posted: **2003-09-04 01:45am**

The Duchess of Zeon wrote:
Edi wrote: This started as a serious enough thread, despite being in OT. I treat all serious threads equally, regardless of what forum they are in. Now if a thread is not intended to be serious or is somewhat serious but was posted with another intent (such as the Whale Flatulence thread; serious content, yes, but that more of a side benefit), they get dealt with accordingly too. I'll keep this in mind for future reference, though.

Edi
Any thread dealing with "Celebrity Crime" as I lump things like the Kobe Bryan case, the Elizabeth Smart kidnapping, the Peterson murder trial, etc, or even, yes, the Jessica Lynch POW story--they're all totally worthless, being:

1. Of absolutely no value or interest to anyone except the vapid, as they elevate a single person and turn them into the sole attraction where these sorts of incidents happen constantly and deserve attention as broad trends.

Mostly true. I went *yawn* when I saw the thread but decided to take a look anyway. I only decided to take part when the issue of mercenary vs patriotic citizen issue came about, because that is a serious issue, above and beyond the case of Pvt. Lynch. Ironic as it is, you made this thread worthy of further attention. *grin*

The Duchess of Zeon wrote:2. So over-reported in the regular media that I rarely watch the regular media, preferring the internet. It infuriates me to see people post this worthless and inane trash on message boards, particularly ones where there might be some intelligent discourse.

Well, those less seriously minded than us two need the lighter stuff sometimes, and I don't begrudge them that. As an aside, I think you would love the Finnish news format applied to the American media, though most of your countrymen wouldn't. When there's news, report the facts, and leave it at that. Talking heads can spin the events in their own shows afterward. That way you can just tune in when there is something you know will be concise and worthwhile instead of needing to slog through all the sewage.

The Duchess of Zeon wrote:Yes, the Jessica Lynch story is broadly in the same category, a "sweetheart" story existing solely to elevate a single person into a media darling and ignore all the other POWs of the conflict, or hostages taken by terrorists, or POWs of other conflicts, etc--just like the elevation of certain murder cases because of the people involved in them. It's utterly disgusting and totally inane.

I do believe this has been made eminently clear on several occasions already, both here and in N&P.

Lady Tevar wrote:And where the hell'd you get the idea that we're a Drafted Army?

She didn't say anything of the kind, Lady T. Marina's comment was...

The Duchess of Zeon wrote:
Edi wrote:

Marina, you're overreacting. A lot.

Edi
The luxurious words of someone who's country still has a draft army. <snip>

...and that's absolutely correct in the way of facts, as Finland does have a draft army. You probably misread her statement or forgot I where I'm from. Just to clear up the confusion.

Edi

Posted: **2003-09-04 01:47am**

So I suppose we should ban any books by former military personel cause they are violating some code most of them dont subscribe to anyway?

As for poo-pooing money, get real. An oppurtunity to be able to buy a home free and clear should not be passed up lightly. Purchasing a home is usually the biggest purchase a person will make there entire lives. It is one of the few ways people can be reasonably sure to provide for their own retirement. Not to mention providing a home for children.

Posted: **2003-09-04 03:25am**

Edi wrote:

Marina, you're overreacting. A lot.

Edi

Homer Mode.
"Yeah she'll do that!"
/Homer Mode.

Posted: **2003-09-05 08:13am**

Would there be a problem if Pvt Lynch wrote a book exclusively for letting the world know what realy happened and not for money ?

Posted: **2003-09-05 10:54am**

it would be one thing if she was a career soldier who ranted and raved about keeping the integrity of military values and about her principles of fighting for honor and duty and not for money. If she spoke aout about this and then accpeted the book deal, then yes, she would be a disgraceful hypocrite, and i can see how you would be very upset with her. But she doesnt. She was never General Patton. She was never a figurehead for military principles--she was just a young girl, probably in the service mainly to reap its financial benefits like most people, who was involved in some very bad stuff, worse than most soldiers will ever endure, and the media turned her story into a sensation. She doesnt care about people debating the morality of military principles vs financial gain--shes a cripple now, shes been through hell and she been offered a deal that will ensure that she never has to worry about anything again. If Patton was in the same position, then i can see how some would be upset. She is not Patton.

Posted: **2003-09-05 11:00am**

zombie84 wrote:she was just a young girl, probably in the service mainly to reap its financial benefits like most people, who was involved in some very bad stuff, worse than most soldiers will ever endure, and the media turned her story into a sensation. She doesnt care about people debating the morality of military principles vs financial gain--shes a cripple now, shes been through hell and she been offered a deal that will ensure that she never has to worry about anything again.

She was in a vehicular accident. She broke her leg.

20 year old girls break their legs in car accidents all the time.

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Book Deal for Private Lynch