Was Yoda's Geonosis decision the right one?

[neoolong]

Was it ever said who was captured on Genosis?

[PainRack]

Mace Windu on the other hand royaly screwed the puppy. His deployments of the Jedi under his command was woefuly ineput and in the end cost many Jedi their lives needlessly.

I'm not so sure about that.

The scattered Jedi probably made for easy prey against the battle droids, however, note that the Jedi eventually concentrated themselves in the arena and were fighting in a somewhat supporting manner against the droids.

What probably doomed the Jedi was the lack of real teamwork on a large scale. Not surprising, considering that Jedi appears to be like vigilantes in the SWU. The Batmans and Spidermans of GL world.

[Lord Pounder]

I disagree. The Jedi started off scattered and in the end it cost them many lives in trying to group togeather. Mace Windu's desire to make a dramatic impact caused this. Mace should atleast have had a few Jedi with him as back up with the other Jedi gathered at the main choak points of the stadium to cut the shit out of the droids as they tried to enter the arena.

[Darth Wong]

Mace had his men scattered all over the arena even though the primary target (Dooku and the TradeFed leaders) was in a known location. He didn't even take a single man with him to go after Dooku.

In essence, he took a situation where he had the element of surprise and initiative, and totally squandered it by acting with no clear objectives. Given the vast numerical disparity, the only intelligent thing to do was to capture the leaders and force them to order a surrender. He actually could have done that, but chose not to.

He may be a Bad MotherFucker, but he's also a fucking bad leader.

[Ender]

Since one thermal detonator can take out either a huge palace on Couruscant, or blow kilometer diameter holes in icefields, I'd say really powerful. The only thing stopping him from that was saving Anakin.

Xixor's palace went boom when a Class-A thermal detonator exploded in (IIRC) a reactor.

A generic TD hit the basement and took out the structural support beams.

I don't know about the other incident, but it sounds like a starship variant, like in TESB when Tie Bombers were dropping blue balls into the asteriod's craters. Those were ship scale thermal detonators.

It's from Bacta War, and yes they were starship bombs.

[PainRack]

I disagree. The Jedi started off scattered and in the end it cost them many lives in trying to group togeather. Mace Windu's desire to make a dramatic impact caused this. Mace should atleast have had a few Jedi with him as back up with the other Jedi gathered at the main choak points of the stadium to cut the shit out of the droids as they tried to enter the arena.

You state that the Jedi started off scattered. Yet, once the battle droids marched in, we saw the Jedi were concentrated in the arena itself.

The battle against the droids came out poorly, but IMO, its easier to place bad tactics on the Seperatists themselves. A proper commander would have deployed his droids around the arena and poured massed fire in, instead of marching into the arena, increasing the odds of friendly fire.

Of course, its totally possible that the droids did attempt to do this, but the Jedi broke up the cordon, in which the droids responded by sending droid waves into the arena to swamp the Jedi under. This could explain why the Jedi appeared to have become scattered during the arena fight.

[PainRack]

Mace had his men scattered all over the arena even though the primary target (Dooku and the TradeFed leaders) was in a known location. He didn't even take a single man with him to go after Dooku.

In essence, he took a situation where he had the element of surprise and initiative, and totally squandered it by acting with no clear objectives. Given the vast numerical disparity, the only intelligent thing to do was to capture the leaders and force them to order a surrender. He actually could have done that, but chose not to.

He may be a Bad MotherFucker, but he's also a fucking bad leader.

Except that there were two primary objectives. Stop the Seperatists from going to war, and rescuing Amidala, Obiwan and Anakin. The show of force was probably intended to keep order in the arena and prevent them from being hurt.

As for Dooku, the Jedi used lightsabers, not blasters. Bringing up more than one man into the ledge could have been more dangerous, as it would have been more cramped. The lightsaber style Mace uses appears to be very expressive and certainly requires a lot of room.

Mace fucked up. But he fucked up by thinking like he was still working with Judical, on a paramilitary police mission, with the kind of directives, guidance and restrictions such operations place.

[neoolong]

The battle against the droids came out poorly, but IMO, its easier to place bad tactics on the Seperatists themselves. A proper commander would have deployed his droids around the arena and poured massed fire in, instead of marching into the arena, increasing the odds of friendly fire.

Of course, its totally possible that the droids did attempt to do this, but the Jedi broke up the cordon, in which the droids responded by sending droid waves into the arena to swamp the Jedi under. This could explain why the Jedi appeared to have become scattered during the arena fight.

If you watch it carefully you'll notice that the droids destroy each other intentionally as well. I remember one instance of super battledroid smacking the regular battledroid when it got in it's way.

[Sea Skimmer]

If you watch it carefully you'll notice that the droids destroy each other intentionally as well. I remember one instance of super battledroid smacking the regular battledroid when it got in it's way.

I believe it was damaged, and thus useless anyway. Its really no different then say pushing a disabled tank off the road to make way for the rest of the company.

[Darth Garden Gnome]

You state that the Jedi started off scattered. Yet, once the battle droids marched in, we saw the Jedi were concentrated in the arena itself.

Yes, right in the center of the arena where they could draw fire from all sides and decrease their chances of escape, should their attack fail.

The battle against the droids came out poorly, but IMO, its easier to place bad tactics on the Seperatists themselves. A proper commander would have deployed his droids around the arena and poured massed fire in, instead of marching into the arena, increasing the odds of friendly fire.

It really doesn't matter; the Seperatists took insignificant casualties to their droid army, as we can see when they deploy it in full against the Republic Army. Plus, I don't think we see a single instance (or read of such in any literature) of a droid striking down another with their blasters.

Of course, its totally possible that the droids did attempt to do this, but the Jedi broke up the cordon, in which the droids responded by sending droid waves into the arena to swamp the Jedi under. This could explain why the Jedi appeared to have become scattered during the arena fight.

From the time it took Mace to deflect the super battle droids lasers, jump away from Jango's flamthrower and land in the area--in those few seconds--I sincerely doubt that the Jedi broke up some droid attack in the arena stands above.

Regardless, that's no reason for them to file off into pairs and run wild between the droid lines--which is what they did--even if they did fend off attack from the arena stands, then go down into the arena for no reason when they should've been hunting Dooku in the nearby pressbox, and then face down the droid hordes.

Except that there were two primary objectives. Stop the Seperatists from going to war, and rescuing Amidala, Obiwan and Anakin. The show of force was probably intended to keep order in the arena and prevent them from being hurt.

It was not meant to make peace. As it was Yoda was going to show up with the Republic Army, but generally speaking making peace isn't streaming into the enemy encampment swords drawn.

As for Dooku, the Jedi used lightsabers, not blasters. Bringing up more than one man into the ledge could have been more dangerous, as it would have been more cramped. The lightsaber style Mace uses appears to be very expressive and certainly requires a lot of room.

They hardly needed to all hop up there. They could've cut the platform down and let the whole lot of them collapse to the arena below. Assuming any survived, they'd have much more room to fight it out.

Mace fucked up. But he fucked up by thinking like he was still working with Judical, on a paramilitary police mission, with the kind of directives, guidance and restrictions such operations place.

Then Mace was a moron. You don't waltz into the heart of the enemy encampment, draw your sword to the leader's well-armed bodyguard, and expect everything to run smoothly. Mace knew of Dooku's impressive abilities and expected him to be aware of his attack; he should've killed Jango, and took the Count hostage instead of threatening Dooku's bodyguard. Like Dooku would've given two shits if Mace lopped his head off right there anyways.

If you watch it carefully you'll notice that the droids destroy each other intentionally as well. I remember one instance of super battledroid smacking the regular battledroid when it got in it's way.

There is a single lone instance of a super battle droid tossing a damaged battle droid aside. That does not equate to massive casualties due to friendly fire.

[neoolong]

I never said that it that it was evidence of massive friendly fire casualties. Just that friendly fire wasn't the only issue.

[Slartibartfast]

You state that the Jedi started off scattered. Yet, once the battle droids marched in, we saw the Jedi were concentrated in the arena itself.

That is called "herding", and it's not done by the Jedi, but by the droids

[PainRack]

You state that the Jedi started off scattered. Yet, once the battle droids marched in, we saw the Jedi were concentrated in the arena itself.

That is called "herding", and it's not done by the Jedi, but by the droids

Right. We saw this just as the droids starts marching in. So somehow, there's an entire battle scene where the droids have herded the Jedi into the centre of the arena?

Yes, right in the center of the arena where they could draw fire from all sides and decrease their chances of escape, should their attack fail.

Bad choice of terrain, only worsened by the fact that the targets they have to protect, were in the centre of the arena. The Jedi were forced to deploy there. I agree on that, but I say it was because they needed to protect the Senator, not because the droids got them there.


[Q]It really doesn't matter; the Seperatists took insignificant casualties to their droid army, as we can see when they deploy it in full against the Republic Army. Plus, I don't think we see a single instance (or read of such in any literature) of a droid striking down another with their blasters.[/Q]
And insignificant or not, its still bad form. Sending your troops in like that was to invite friendly fire at worse. At best, you're obscuring your firing lanes. Especially since we saw that the droids were walking through each other firing lane to get at the enemy.

From the time it took Mace to deflect the super battle droids lasers, jump away from Jango's flamthrower and land in the area--in those few seconds--I sincerely doubt that the Jedi broke up some droid attack in the arena stands above.

No. The Jedi were concentrated in the arena, gave lightsabres to Ben and Anakin, then they broke up again. Some Jedi were fighting on the stands, a Jedi tried to attack Dooku and some of them were in the arena, fighting all over the place. The Jedi scattered right after they gave the lightsabres to Anakin and Obiwan.


Its not likely either, but its not impossible.

Regardless, that's no reason for them to file off into pairs and run wild between the droid lines--which is what they did--even if they did fend off attack from the arena stands, then go down into the arena for no reason when they should've been hunting Dooku in the nearby pressbox, and then face down the droid hordes.

Thus, me saying that Jedi don't believe in teamwork beyond the Master and Apprentice.

It was not meant to make peace. As it was Yoda was going to show up with the Republic Army, but generally speaking making peace isn't streaming into the enemy encampment swords drawn.

I said stop the Seperatists from going to war. Not make peace. As bush so amply shows, there are lots of ways to do that.

They hardly needed to all hop up there. They could've cut the platform down and let the whole lot of them collapse to the arena below. Assuming any survived, they'd have much more room to fight it out.

which scenario are we now talking about? Are we still discussing about Mace attempt to capture the Sepearatists leadership or the later attempt, which was foiled by Jango?

If its the first, the ROE binding the Jedi prohibits it. If its the later, they were too hard pressed to do it.

Then Mace was a moron. You don't waltz into the heart of the enemy encampment, draw your sword to the leader's well-armed bodyguard, and expect everything to run smoothly. Mace knew of Dooku's impressive abilities and expected him to be aware of his attack; he should've killed Jango, and took the Count hostage instead of threatening Dooku's bodyguard. Like Dooku would've given two shits if Mace lopped his head off right there anyways.

Then that would be ignoring the ethics problem, wouldn't it?

Let's say the Mafia now has some rich kid tied up in their pizza parlour. Does the police storm in, kill everyone on sight without any warning, or do they use a visible show of force, to intimidate the opponents into surrendering?















If you answer the first, you're watching way too many gangster movies.