When the US goes to war, citizen-soldiers get the shaft.

Solid Snake · Post by **Solid Snake** » 2003-09-15 07:33pm

Well, i signed up aware this might happen. If i do get called up, it'll probably blow ass and i'll hate it badly.. But that makes the homecoming so much better.

Durandal · Post by **Durandal** » 2003-09-15 08:07pm

Wicked Pilot wrote:Plans can change and they change often. The Pentagon doesn't have a crystal ball. Moreover, it is not the Pentagon who signed the order to invade Iraq, that was the civilian administration's doing.

There was no plan. The plan was to wave The Magic Democracy Wand and Iraq would be liberated. I reiterate, not once during the pre-war hoopla did anyone ever present anything even remotely resembling an optimal time line for the reconstruction of Iraq. Hell, there wasn't even a time line. There was barely even a budget projection. We had "Shock and Awe" with a hint of, "We's gonna kick dem sand niggers' asses!"

And now the soldiers are paying for the administration's incompetence. I'm sorry, but the administration's inability to see and plan for more than a week in advance is not a license to treat the troops like shit.

Jon Stewart hit it right on the money when covering Bush's "I Need $87 Billion Out Of Your Pocket" speech. Bush proudly stated that he'd received a letter from a soldier stationed in Iraq, in which the soldier said he was grateful to be there and doing something good for those people. Stewart commented, "That letter, of course, had to be sorted out from the other 129,999 ones that said, 'GET ME THE FUCK OUT OF HERE!!!!'"

Raptor 597 · Post by **Raptor 597** » 2003-09-15 08:31pm

Durandal wrote:
Wicked Pilot wrote:Plans can change and they change often. The Pentagon doesn't have a crystal ball. Moreover, it is not the Pentagon who signed the order to invade Iraq, that was the civilian administration's doing.
There was no plan. The plan was to wave The Magic Democracy Wand and Iraq would be liberated. I reiterate, not once during the pre-war hoopla did anyone ever present anything even remotely resembling an optimal time line for the reconstruction of Iraq. Hell, there wasn't even a time line. There was barely even a budget projection. We had "Shock and Awe" with a hint of, "We's gonna kick dem sand niggers' asses!"

And now the soldiers are paying for the administration's incompetence. I'm sorry, but the administration's inability to see and plan for more than a week in advance is not a license to treat the troops like shit.

Jon Stewart hit it right on the money when covering Bush's "I Need $87 Billion Out Of Your Pocket" speech. Bush proudly stated that he'd received a letter from a soldier stationed in Iraq, in which the soldier said he was grateful to be there and doing something good for those people. Stewart commented, "That letter, of course, had to be sorted out from the other 129,999 ones that said, 'GET ME THE FUCK OUT OF HERE!!!!'"

It's fucking 1861 all over again. Atleast this time we had a large professional force. i honestly expected tese numbers, and to think Drunkard Rumsfeld and Bush want to expand to other countries. Way to fuck over everybody. With these guys on charge West Point isn't looking too bad noow. The Army'll need officers.

TrailerParkJawa · Post by **TrailerParkJawa** » 2003-09-15 11:35pm

It makes sense that they changed things after Vietnam to make sure if any large scale war happens it comes home to most Americans. However, the downside of this policy combined with lots of deployments have had an unintended side effect.

Reservists and National Guardsmen are being deployed more and often and longer than they would have expected. Some like my friend are lucky. His employer will pay him for a certain amount of time ( I think its 2 months.) After that unless the military allows a COLA adjustment its forclosure time.

This is a big problem. Telling people they should not join if they cant afford to be deployed basically means nobody should stay in the Guard/Reserves past E-4. I think a good idea would be if you are called up for more than 30 days you get an immediate COLA adjustment to your salary. Otherwise we end up sending a message to the Guard/Reserve: Serve your country, lose your home.

Or we could simply reduce the amount of Reserve units in expensive areas like NYC, SF, San Diego, Boston, etc.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-09-15 11:53pm

It's a lot easier for a single guy to shrug off the consequences of such long deployments than a man with a wife and children who will end up being thrown out in the street because of this.

Having said that, it's true that they agreed to this, and I suspect that the majority of the people who are now grousing about this situation were solidly in favour of this war at the beginning of the year.

Stravo · Post by **Stravo** » 2003-09-15 11:55pm

Darth Wong wrote:It's a lot easier for a single guy to shrug off the consequences of such long deployments than a man with a wife and children who will end up being thrown out in the street because of this.

Having said that, it's true that they agreed to this, and I suspect that the majority of the people who are now grousing about this situation were solidly in favour of this war at the beginning of the year.

Curious: Why does who's in favor of the war matter when it comes to the treatment of soldiers? Whether you were for or against I think no one wants to see soldiers being treated poorly nor were the pro war people presceint enough to see that the administration was jacking off to fantasies of a peaceful post war Iraq. I go on teh record as being pro the war and we needed to go in there, still support the action but am not happy with the way the occupation is being handled.

TrailerParkJawa · Post by **TrailerParkJawa** » 2003-09-16 12:03am

Stravo wrote: Curious: Why does who's in favor of the war matter when it comes to the treatment of soldiers? Whether you were for or against I think no one wants to see soldiers being treated poorly nor were the pro war people presceint enough to see that the administration was jacking off to fantasies of a peaceful post war Iraq. I go on teh record as being pro the war and we needed to go in there, still support the action but am not happy with the way the occupation is being handled.

I think he was refering to the military folks who supported the war, but I could be wrong.

I personally went on the record against the war, but think the troops should get the best treatment and pay possible.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-09-16 12:15am

Stravo wrote:Curious: Why does who's in favor of the war matter when it comes to the treatment of soldiers?

The soldiers are not being treated as well as they should be, but the fiscal consequences of extra-long deployments were basically unavoidable once the nation committed to the war. If they supported the war, then they contributed to the decision to go ahead and prosecute it. George Bush may be an idealogue but he's not totally insane; if the American public was solidly against the war, do you think he still would have done it?

Whether you were for or against I think no one wants to see soldiers being treated poorly nor were the pro war people presceint enough to see that the administration was jacking off to fantasies of a peaceful post war Iraq.

Actually, a lot of people saw how stupid it was to assume that all Iraqis would instantly love America once Saddam was gone. However, such objections were usually shouted down.

I go on teh record as being pro the war and we needed to go in there, still support the action but am not happy with the way the occupation is being handled.

You can't support the action unless you're prepared to deal with the consequences.

Tsyroc · Post by **Tsyroc** » 2003-09-16 12:22am

Wicked Pilot wrote:You sign the form, you go.

Damn straight.

Of course on the next presidential election feel free to vote against the bastard that sent you away for a long time if you happen to disagree with his reasoning.

Considering that the US has called up a lot of reservists twice in the last 10 years I think they are going to have a harder time keeping the reserves full in the near future.

I know someone who was a reserve Army medic that got out 6 months or so before Iraq round II. He and his family are thanking their lucky stars. His brother is currently an Army medic serving in Iraq and he is seeing nasty shit pretty much every day. The worst case had to do with some guy who ate a bunch of C-4 and was puking up glood and parts of organs.

And ocassionally he gets stuck on shit burning detail, literally.

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2003-09-16 12:30am

Actually, a lot of people saw how stupid it was to assume that all Iraqis would instantly love America once Saddam was gone. However, such objections were usually shouted down.

That's true. And I'll admit that I while I didn't expect them to love it, I was overly optomistic. But US blunders have made the resentment far greater than it would have been.

But Bush clearly hasn't thought this out or organized this as well as it should have been. Their plan seems to have been based on that fantasy with no role effort made to address what happened afterward. To say the least I'm disappointed since I expected him to have actually made some plans rather than just crossed his fingers.

You can't support the action unless you're prepared to deal with the consequences.

Which is supposed to mean what? I'm not suggesting running nor am I suggesting we shrink from paying to rebuild Iraq.

The administration hasn't been prepared, that's clear now. And instead of dealing with it they're trying to escape it. I'm not pleased in the least.

Uraniun235 · Post by **Uraniun235** » 2003-09-16 12:48am

Tsyroc wrote:The worst case had to do with some guy who ate a bunch of C-4 and was puking up glood and parts of organs.

What the FUCK?

Why?!?

Tsyroc · Post by **Tsyroc** » 2003-09-16 01:04am

Uraniun235 wrote:
Tsyroc wrote:The worst case had to do with some guy who ate a bunch of C-4 and was puking up blood and parts of organs.
What the FUCK? Why?!?

I'm not entirely sure. I heard this second hand and the guy who told me wasn't sure if it was a soldier trying to go home or if it had been an Iraqi. I think it was likely a guy trying to go home.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-09-16 01:45am

Tsyroc wrote:
Uraniun235 wrote:
Tsyroc wrote:The worst case had to do with some guy who ate a bunch of C-4 and was puking up blood and parts of organs.
What the FUCK? Why?!?
I'm not entirely sure. I heard this second hand and the guy who told me wasn't sure if it was a soldier trying to go home or if it had been an Iraqi. I think it was likely a guy trying to go home.

He was hoping for a nice ride home in a pine box?

Tsyroc · Post by **Tsyroc** » 2003-09-16 01:50am

Darth Wong wrote: He was hoping for a nice ride home in a pine box?

That's probably what he evenually got. I think he got evact to Germany first.

Stuart Mackey · Post by **Stuart Mackey** » 2003-09-16 07:38am

Ahh, the glorious results of piss poor planning or PPP for short.
While it is true that you have to expect deployment while in your nation armed service that is no excuse for being ignorant of the living conditions of your troops, living conditions affect troops performance. I seem to recall that this is part of basic officer training, shame the generals forgot this.

It is also interesting to note that the pentegon has no concept of unit rotation unit in for 6 months out for 6-8 or a year then back in. I wonder how the US army will like a wee retention problem after this kind of shit.

Post by **Vympel** » 2003-09-16 07:55am

Stuart Mackey wrote:Ahh, the glorious results of piss poor planning or PPP for short.
While it is true that you have to expect deployment while in your nation armed service that is no excuse for being ignorant of the living conditions of your troops, living conditions affect troops performance. I seem to recall that this is part of basic officer training, shame the generals forgot this.

It is also interesting to note that the pentegon has no concept of unit rotation unit in for 6 months out for 6-8 or a year then back in. I wonder how the US army will like a wee retention problem after this kind of shit.

The retention problem has been there for some time already I hear- this will only make it worse.

Stuart Mackey · Post by **Stuart Mackey** » 2003-09-16 08:00am

Vympel wrote:
Stuart Mackey wrote:Ahh, the glorious results of piss poor planning or PPP for short.
While it is true that you have to expect deployment while in your nation armed service that is no excuse for being ignorant of the living conditions of your troops, living conditions affect troops performance. I seem to recall that this is part of basic officer training, shame the generals forgot this.

It is also interesting to note that the pentegon has no concept of unit rotation unit in for 6 months out for 6-8 or a year then back in. I wonder how the US army will like a wee retention problem after this kind of shit.
The retention problem has been there for some time already I hear- this will only make it worse.

Yep, you would think they would have learned this lesson by now.

TrailerParkJawa · Post by **TrailerParkJawa** » 2003-09-16 10:51am

I think the bad economy is making it easier on the Reserves/Guard. For quite a few of them, they dont have a civilian job anymore and it is hard to find a new one. Had the economy been a little better I think the outcry would have been louder.

Personally, I think every soldier, Marine, airmen, sailor, coast guardsmen, active duty or not, should have expected to be in Iraq for a year. We did conquer an entire country after all. But, when it comes down to it, the commander in chief should have set the expectation of how long deployments might get. They just left it up in the air.

Enforcer Talen · Post by **Enforcer Talen** » 2003-09-16 10:52am

oh, this looks like a fun year to sign up.

suits my irony, anyway

Post by **RogueIce** » 2003-09-17 10:11pm

Tsyroc wrote:And ocassionally he gets stuck on shit burning detail, literally.

We got a Marine reservist in our unit who went over there (remember that LAV repair vehicle that brought down Saddam's statue? He knew the guy, and IIRC, he was in that unit), and he has plenty of "shit" stories to tell.