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But it does. The Emperor trust Thrawn implicitly.

Thrawn is the only person in the galaxy who has refused to follow the Emperor's Naval plans several times and lived to tell about it. The Emperor trust what he says because he's nearly always right.

When the shuttle arrives at Endor Thrawn would order it captured and Luke presented to the Emperor. Even if Vader turns at the very least the rebel fleet would be crushed, it's main leadership killed, and the DS protected due to there beng no rebel strike team to blow up the sheild generator.

That doesn't mean that the Emperor will actually listen and change the way the battle is conducted. Remember, this is his big convoluted plan and he's not likely to change it so easily.

Thrawn could not have done better than Piett did. He still would have had to follow the Emperor's orders and not engage the Rebels until the Death Star had made its demonstration, he would not have been able to prevent the destruction of the shield, and his fighters would not have been more successful at silencing the tunnel run.
The failure at Endor was not Piett's; it was Palpatine's.

Darth Garden Gnome wrote:And, IP, I honestly have no idea what you just said. I'm not sure some of those sentences were grammatically correct...

Which sentences, specifically, did you not understand? They all made perfect sense to me.

Robert Treder wrote:

Darth Garden Gnome wrote:And, IP, I honestly have no idea what you just said. I'm not sure some of those sentences were grammatically correct...

Which sentences, specifically, did you not understand? They all made perfect sense to me.

Well I just did revise a couple because I misused the verb tense and outright omitted a few "that"s or "them"s about...I need to sleep.

One should of course keep in mind that there was a grand admiral present at the Battle of Endor. Grand Admiral Osvald Teshik continued to fight for hours after the illegal retreat order issued by Captain Pellaeon, and was captured (along with the Star Destroyer Eleemosynary). Admiral Ackbar -- the fleet commander whom Grand Admiral Thrawn would be facing in this scenario -- also defeated and killed Grand Admiral Syn at Kashyyyk, making him the most accomplished naval tactician in the galaxy, having beaten two of the Emperor's chosen, something even Admiral Thrawn cannot claim.

Incidentally, Prince-Admiral Krennel's "Death Star" construction project was not the same as the Star Tours Death Star III (although that story is also tentatively in continuity, as elements from it have been referenced in passing from time to time), but rather refers to a maskirovka perpetrated by Director of Imperial Intelligence Isard in Isard's Revenge (Mr. Michael A. Stackpole, 1999). The project was never undertaken, as it was not actually the Prince-Admiral's, but the New Republic implicitly believed that he possessed the resources to realize it.

PUBLIUS

Okay, everytime someone mentions Thrawn the board divides and starts trying to kill each other.

First, Thrawn was not a imbecile. Granted, he COULD have courted the other warlords, etc.. he COULD have used a larger commander staff. But at least according to the Zahn books he was doing a fine damn job of steam-rolling and sending the NR into a complete destructive frenzy only stopped by the damn rebel luck.

Second, I don't believe Thrawn was loyal to the Empire per se. Thrawn saw the Empire as a means to an end. Remember, Thrawn was evidently setting up for some big baddies to come around and they evidently had him scared that he even set up contingencies if those unknown enemies defeated him.

Third, IF Thrawn had elected to court the warlords and a larger command staff.. he would have been bogged down like the New Republic was. Remember, Thrawn was a warlord himself. "Bitch, do what I say!"

Illuminatus Primus wrote:EDIT: Krennel and Kaine were definitely NOT traitors. They defected following a wholely illegal and illegitimate siezure of power by the Director of Intelligence, and rightfully resisted. Kaine particularly, was loyal to Palpatine, and gladly returned to his Master when he revealed himself. He had no loyalty for usurpers.

Krennel and Kaine were both traitors. Krennel killed Sate Pestage who was the rightful heir to the Empire in Palpatine's passing. Although Pestage was fleeing to surrender the Empire, he was doing so because Isard had set him to have the Ruling Council kill him. If Krennel wasn't a traitor he would've allowed Pestage to live and used the Ciutric Hegemony's resources to overthrow Isard.

After the supposed death of Isard at Thyferra there was no one to rule the Empire, even if Isard wasn't the legitimate ruler (no one was, AFAIK. Pestage was the only heir to Palpatine's Empire after Vader). The warlords Harrsk and Teradoc fled to the Deep Core mere days after Endor, meanwhile Kaine formed the Pentastar Allignment in the Outer Rim. All of them had fled before Isard had even put a death mark on Pestage, and were traitors for forsaking Pestage's rule.

Enter Thrawn. He hears the Empire is dying and returns from the Unknown Regions. The squabbling warlords have done little in the way of stopping the Rebels expansion into Imperial territory, so long as their wardlord kingdoms are safe. Even if Thrawn wanted to deal with these traitors, he was in a position of disadvantage against the Rebels; splitting his forces and fighting the warlords and Rebels on two different fronts would've been suicide. He takes up arms with Pellaeon who is trying to hold the former Empire together.

Thrawn dies. Palpatine contacts the warlords from the Deep Core and demands fealty through fear of death. Isard went so far as to try to steal the Lusankya to escape Palpatine's wrath. He wants their ships and their territory and he is in a position of advantage against the Rebels because they don't know of him yet and because they have pulled much of their navy away from the Core Worlds to battle the warlords.

While Thrawn was not in a position to deal with these warlords, Palpatine was. They were traitors for forsaking Pestage, but Palpatine can see past this if it means the warlords' ships and expertise.

Or at least that's my take on it.

Stormbringer wrote:Unless Thrawn replaces the Emperor things don't change much. It was Palpy rather moronic plan that doomed the Imperials to defeat on Endor and Thrawn wouldn't have been able to do more than simply carry it out.

Not too moronic. Only two things happened that saved the rebel fleet.

1. A wookie captured a AT-ST that was used to send a fake transmission to the sheild bunker.

2. Vader turned on him which he did not expect. This can possibly be blamed on the Force and not on Palpy himself.

If Thrawn were in Jerjerrod's place, he would have used the superlaser on the most important targets first, rather than simply targeting ships at random. This means Home One goes down immediately, and the Rebel fleet has just lost its flagship. He will then take out other vessels in sequence, thus making Palpatine's trap far more effective.

If Thrawn were in Piett's place, he probably would have been taken some kind of aggressive action when the Rebels charged into the midst of his fleet. Piett apparently held back and allowed his ships to freelance defensively, with no real co-ordinated plan. Thrawn might have either co-ordinated some kind of attack on the most important Rebel ships first or ordered his ships to scatter in order to disperse the action and clear the fire lanes for the DS2 superlaser.

The Rebel success hinged on chance. Only two Rebel craft managed to make it into the DS2 reactor chamber alive even with all of the things that went wrong. Even a small shift in fortunes would have turned it the other way, and produced an Imperial victory even if the shield generator were taken down and the Emperor killed.

I say that if Thrawn is in either Piett's place or Jerjerrod's place, the Empire walks away with a victory.

Darth Garden Gnome wrote:

Illuminatus Primus wrote:EDIT: Krennel and Kaine were definitely NOT traitors. They defected following a wholely illegal and illegitimate siezure of power by the Director of Intelligence, and rightfully resisted. Kaine particularly, was loyal to Palpatine, and gladly returned to his Master when he revealed himself. He had no loyalty for usurpers.

Krennel and Kaine were both traitors. Krennel killed Sate Pestage who was the rightful heir to the Empire in Palpatine's passing.

Bullshit. Sate Pestage was an advisor who illegally seized the throne--there was no legal method of succession, ipso facto there can be no legitimate successor to His Imperial Majesty, the Emperor--who was, by the way, not deceased.

Krennel was not obligated to obey the commands of Sate Pestage, a traitor to the Empire. In fact, as we observe in Isard's Revenge in the dialogue between Krennel and Isard's clone that he actually was quite close and held dear the precepts and principles of the Empire, including but not limited to: High Human Culture, the Tarkin Doctrine, and other important parts of the New Order.

Likewise with Kaine, who recognized that the Empire was full of pretenders once Palpatine was out of contact, and preserved his fiefdom in the model of Palpatine, and the only legimitate state he envisioned was a New Galactic Empire, and rightfully so: there was no Galactic Empire without Emperor Palpatine.

Darth Garden Gnome wrote:Although Pestage was fleeing to surrender the Empire, he was doing so because Isard had set him to have the Ruling Council kill him.

Bullshit. He was going to negotiate the surrender of Coruscant in exchange for asylum and concessions from the New Republic. He was a treasonous fool.

Darth Garden Gnome wrote:If Krennel wasn't a traitor he would've allowed Pestage to live and used the Ciutric Hegemony's resources to overthrow Isard.

And cooperated with a man who was willing to surrender Imperial Centre to the New Republic? A man who'd been impotent and incompetant to hold together the Empire and fight the Galactic Civil War?

Darth Garden Gnome wrote:After the supposed death of Isard at Thyferra there was no one to rule the Empire, even if Isard wasn't the legitimate ruler (no one was, AFAIK. Pestage was the only heir to Palpatine's Empire after Vader).

Incorrect. None of these individuals were designated or legitimate successors. Including the traitor Pestage. After Isard's disappearance (she lost her throne long before supposed-death at Thyferra), there was no single Imperial leader, but a de facto council of Moffs, surviving members of the Emperor's Ruling Circle, and various High Command officers, etc.

Darth Garden Gnome wrote:The warlords Harrsk and Teradoc fled to the Deep Core mere days after Endor, meanwhile Kaine formed the Pentastar Allignment in the Outer Rim. All of them had fled before Isard had even put a death mark on Pestage, and were traitors for forsaking Pestage's rule.

[i]The Essential Chronology[/i] by Kevin Anderson, pg. 70 wrote:Knowing Isard had sold him out, Pestage made preparations to defect. On Axxila, he held a secret meeting with Councilor Leia Organa to discuss terms. In exchange for leaving Coruscant undefended against a New Republic assault, he asked for twenty-five planets he could rule as he pleased. Realizing Coruscant was the key to the war effort, Organa agreed to Pestage's offer, despite her own misgivings. (emphases mine)

Darth Garden Gnome wrote:Enter Thrawn. He hears the Empire is dying and returns from the Unknown Regions. The squabbling warlords have done little in the way of stopping the Rebels expansion into Imperial territory, so long as their wardlord kingdoms are safe.

The warlords are obviously not obligated to protect anyone but themselves--and the lack of New Republic gains against any of them accept Zsinj, which required efforts of the New Republic, the Empire, and the Hapan Consortium suggest the warlords are more competant at retaining their share of former Imperial territory than the actual Empire is at theirs.

Darth Garden Gnome wrote:Even if Thrawn wanted to deal with these traitors, he was in a position of disadvantage against the Rebels; splitting his forces and fighting the warlords and Rebels on two different fronts would've been suicide. He takes up arms with Pellaeon who is trying to hold the former Empire together.

Pelleaon is a lowly captain, and a mediocre officer at best who took three generations to reach the rank Piett in one. He's not the protege or right-hand everyone makes him out to be. Think sidekick.

Furthermore, you're totally forgetting a whole possibility: rather than trying to conquer the warlords (which wouldn't be a two-front war, if you read the Chronology you'd realize that the New Republic was as deprived of warships as the Empire, and couldn't afford any offensive combat at that time), why not negotiate, ally, or in anyway enlist their aide? Thrawn instead marginalizes them, which is strategically imbecilic.

Darth Garden Gnome wrote:Thrawn dies. Palpatine contacts the warlords from the Deep Core and demands fealty through fear of death.

Oh well damn, this must mean they didn't want to rejoin! What was he supposed to do? Offer them cake on their way out if they didn't join? Let them inform the Rebels?

Darth Garden Gnome wrote:Isard went so far as to try to steal the Lusankya to escape Palpatine's wrath.

As well she should: she failed him over and over again.

Darth Garden Gnome wrote:He wants their ships and their territory and he is in a position of advantage against the Rebels because they don't know of him yet and because they have pulled much of their navy away from the Core Worlds to battle the warlords.

While Thrawn was not in a position to deal with these warlords, Palpatine was. They were traitors for forsaking Pestage, but Palpatine can see past this if it means the warlords' ships and expertise.

Grand Vizier != Heir Apparent to the Throne.

He was the greatest traitor of them all, and deserved to die. And was there a magic wall preventing any diplomatic gestures by Thrawn? He betrayed many of principles of the New Order and was himself an illegitimate usurper. There's a reason why His Imperial Majesty the Emperor had him eliminated.

Darth Garden Gnome wrote:Or at least that's my take on it.

The Essential Chronology will be your friend, friend.

Illuminatus Primus wrote:Bullshit. Sate Pestage was an advisor who illegally seized the throne--there was no legal method of succession, ipso facto there can be no legitimate successor to His Imperial Majesty, the Emperor--who was, by the way, not deceased.

Pestage was more than just an advisor. By TESB Pestage was running the Empire while the Emperor delved deeper into his dark side sorcerey. If anyone truly new the Emperor it was him, which is why it was assumed he would continue to reign in the name of the Emperor (who he apparently new was still alive but was not to contact, lest Palpatine's new plans for domination be spoiled) when he died. The coalition of Moffs--governors, politicians, but most certaintly not leaders--and the Director of Intellegence did not share his views.

Krennel was not obligated to obey the commands of Sate Pestage, a traitor to the Empire. In fact, as we observe in Isard's Revenge in the dialogue between Krennel and Isard's clone that he actually was quite close and held dear the precepts and principles of the Empire, including but not limited to: High Human Culture, the Tarkin Doctrine, and other important parts of the New Order.

Pestage was anything but a traitor. Had he let the Empire disintegrate right there on the spot the Emperor's attacks from the Core would've been a disaster. He tried to hold the Empire together in Palpatine's name while the Emperor recuperated from his spirit switcho-chango ordeal in the Deep Core but was betrayed by crafty politicians.

Likewise with Kaine, who recognized that the Empire was full of pretenders once Palpatine was out of contact, and preserved his fiefdom in the model of Palpatine, and the only legimitate state he envisioned was a New Galactic Empire, and rightfully so: there was no Galactic Empire without Emperor Palpatine.

True as it may be, Pestage could not let the Empire dissapear; he had to preserve it for his Master. He would've accomplished that much better had not Isard and the Moffs hunted him down and killed him. Meanwhile Kaine, Krennel, Teradoc ect. went out on their own to gobble up the remains of the Empire and drive down its size to a mere 25% of the galaxy.

Darth Garden Gnome wrote:Bullshit. He was going to negotiate the surrender of Coruscant in exchange for asylum and concessions from the New Republic. He was a treasonous fool.

He did so because of Isard's treachery. As it was the Rebels were not prepared for the Palpatine's assualt on Coruscant years later, so its loss wouldn't have been substantial.

Darth Garden Gnome wrote:And cooperated with a man who was willing to surrender Imperial Centre to the New Republic? A man who'd been impotent and incompetant to hold together the Empire and fight the Galactic Civil War?

Pestage knew of Palpatine's ressurection on Byss, the loss of Coruscant meant nothing. The only reason Pestage didn't hold the Empire together was greedy political schemers stabbing him in the back. Palpatine's affinity to the Force could prevent such situations (except for the embarrasing Zaarin incident); Pestage was just a man. But he had been running the Empire for a year. Had it not been for the warlords who left after Endor the loss of the Death Star would be nil. Had they flocked to Pestage's banner they could still use their massive fleet to subdue the Rebels. They did not, and the Empire crumbled because of it.

Incorrect. None of these individuals were designated or legitimate successors. Including the traitor Pestage. After Isard's disappearance (she lost her throne long before supposed-death at Thyferra), there was no single Imperial leader, but a de facto council of Moffs, surviving members of the Emperor's Ruling Circle, and various High Command officers, etc.

It doesn't seem to be that way, because that's not how it went down. The Interim Ruling Council obeyed Pestage, until Isard back-stabbed him. At that point the Ruling Council put a death mark on him.

[i]The Essential Chronology[/i] by Kevin Anderson, pg. 70 wrote:<snip>

I am aware of Pestage's surrender. But he knew something Leia didn't: The Emperor was alive. He would come, and there was no way the Coruscant Defense Fleet could possibly be prepared for it. Had Krennel teamed up with Pestage and too learned of the Emperor's returned they could've used their resources to actually fight the Rebels instead of letting the Empire crumble.

The warlords are obviously not obligated to protect anyone but themselves--and the lack of New Republic gains against any of them accept Zsinj, which required efforts of the New Republic, the Empire, and the Hapan Consortium suggest the warlords are more competant at retaining their share of former Imperial territory than the actual Empire is at theirs.

They also conquered much of Teradoc's territory also. The foolish ambitions of Zsinj and Teradoc led to the loss of much Imperial territory, and inadvertently the other warlords who had weakened the Empire's fleet were also at fault.

Pelleaon is a lowly captain, and a mediocre officer at best who took three generations to reach the rank Piett in one. He's not the protege or right-hand everyone makes him out to be. Think sidekick.

Ok.

Furthermore, you're totally forgetting a whole possibility: rather than trying to conquer the warlords (which wouldn't be a two-front war, if you read the Chronology you'd realize that the New Republic was as deprived of warships as the Empire, and couldn't afford any offensive combat at that time), why not negotiate, ally, or in anyway enlist their aide? Thrawn instead marginalizes them, which is strategically imbecilic.

They are traitors. No Imperial commander of the remaining Empire would be caught dealing with traitors.

Oh well damn, this must mean they didn't want to rejoin! What was he supposed to do? Offer them cake on their way out if they didn't join? Let them inform the Rebels?

I'm sure they wanted to join: the Emperor had the element of surprise to a Rebel fleet far from the Core. They would be fools not to; but they were in it for themselves, not any Emperor. They slaughtered each other in the Imperial Mutiny once Coruscant was theirs: some loyal soldiers they were.

As well she should: she failed him over and over again.

I doubt she felt she held any obligation to Palpatine. She illegally seized the throne in his passing (whether or not Pestage was the rightful leader). She did what she did because she didn't want to die.

Grand Vizier != Heir Apparent to the Throne.

Let's see: he was running the Empire since TESB, the Inner Rim Ruling Council obeyed him, and the rest of the Empire obeyed him. There was just one scheming Director of Intellegence that screwed it all up.

There's a reason why His Imperial Majesty the Emperor had him eliminated.

Palpatine killed neither Thrawn or Pestage.

The Essential Chronology will be your friend, friend.

Don't worry, I have read it many times.

Thrawn couldn't have changed the outcome... it wasnt the fault of the tacticians that made the imperials lose, it was the loss of the executor, and far more important the loss of the Death Star. as Thrawn tells Pellaeon, the Emperor strenghtened his men with the force will the battle took place. when he did, the fighters got out of control, the cannoniers didnt shoot well anymore. and the rebels were clearly encouraged by the DS destrucution

Durran Korr wrote:Regardless, Krennels's territory (which included Tarkin's territory) contained resources that would have helped the campaign against the NR, and Thrawn did not take advantage of this. Idiotic.

Actually, he might have in the case of Krennel. In Isard's Revenge, Krennel talks about Thrawn. But apparently, Thrawn doesn't like Krennel. Krennel was assigned to Thrawn shortly pre-Endor, and reading the data stream past the text, Krennel apparently disobeyed one of Thrawn's orders, preferring to use "ruthless conduct" which he felt was more effective. (I suspect that means Krennel destroyed a world.)

Thrawn made Krennel go home.

Five years later, apparently Thrawn tried to claim authority over "all Imperial assets." Krennel even gave a little help.

Honestly, I never suspected that a Grand Admiral was at Endor. One wonders why HE wasn't in command - I mean, shouldn't a Grand Admiral be higher on the Fleet Command hierchary? And what kind of name is that ISD he had anyway?

As for Thrawn, I think I was one of those who complained about his lack of staff. In some ways he was fairly brilliant, in other ways...

Pellaeon - well, I'm very anti-Pellaeon. Anyone that takes 45 years to get to Captain has a problem (and that only because the old Captain got fragged.)

(Cool, I just got a 5th Star!)

Anyway, I think that anybody that was just a little more aggressive than Piett has a chance at Endor. What they need is a better, less "politically restained" (by the Emperor) fire plan that actually allows the capships to start engaging the Rebs sooner with serious firepower sooner. I really don't think ships dying in conventional battle significantly reduces the shock effect of the superlaser.

Kazuaki Shimazaki wrote:

Durran Korr wrote:Regardless, Krennels's territory (which included Tarkin's territory) contained resources that would have helped the campaign against the NR, and Thrawn did not take advantage of this. Idiotic.

Durran Korr appears to be confusing the Prince-Admiral Krennel with the Grand Moff Kaine. The Ciutric Hegemony of the former comprehends some 25 systems (possibly more, an he has aggressively pursued conquest), while the Pentastar Alignment of the latter comprehends a very large portion of the Outer Rim Territories. Kaine represents possibly the second most powerful rogue warlord state, after the Imperial Warlord Zsinj's Quelii Sector.

Honestly, I never suspected that a Grand Admiral was at Endor. One wonders why HE wasn't in command - I mean, shouldn't a Grand Admiral be higher on the Fleet Command hierchary? And what kind of name is that ISD he had anyway?

Grand Admirals Miltin Takel, Nial Declann, and Osvald Teshik were present aboard the Death Star as observers. Admiral Takel fled before the Death Star was destroyed, Admiral Declann was rushing to the Emperor's throne room when it exploded, and the cyborg Admiral Teshik escaped in time to return to his flagship, HIMS Eleemosynary, and continue the fight for three hours before capture.

Essentially, Fleet Admiral Firmus Piett was the senior officer present and afloat until his death, whereupon command should have devolved to the next senior flag officer (including Admiral Harrsk) until Admiral Teshik raised his flag aboard the Eleemosynary, at which point he was the senior officer present and afloat. Had not the majority of the fleet illegally abandoned the battle after the unlawful usurpation of command of Captain Gilad Pellaeon, the Empire might have made a better showing.

"Eleemosynary" is a somewhat outmoded word meaning "charitable" or otherwise of or relating to charity. Dartmouth College, for example, was founded as an eleemosynary school to provide a modern education for Indian students (on first enrolling there, many of the other students actually thought that Daniel Webster was one such Indian due to his swarthy complexion).

PUBLIUS

Durran Korr wrote:

...did you just refer to Grand Admiral Thrawn as a "strategic imbecile"?

Yeah, he was...rather than trying to court other imperial warlords that would have helped the campaign against the rebels, he tried to do it all by himself. IP is much better at this than I am, by the way, he can go on for paragraphs about it.

Yes, but unlike IP you evidently don't have all the evidence onhand. he did have all the warlords under him, getting supplies from all of them

Durran Korr wrote:

I don't think so. The surviving Imperial warlords in the Deep Core were too busy killing each other to put up any sort of fight against the Rebels. The only time the Core World's forces were ever under control is when Daala killed all of them.

And Thrawn made no overtures to ally himself with any of them. Prince Admiral-Krennel, for example, had a large territory enough territory to support construction of a DS, but Thrawn isolated him.

No and No. Did you even read Isard's revenge? Krennel was supporting Thrawn even though he wanted him dead, and Krennel MIGHT have been able to build a baby death star, but not the real deal.

Durran Korr wrote:Source?

Regardless, Krennels's territory (which included Tarkin's territory) contained resources that would have helped the campaign against the NR, and Thrawn did not take advantage of this. Idiotic.

No, Krennels territory was something like 40 worlds in the inner rim. Tarkin was outer rim.


And he was getting supplies and aid from Krennel

Ender wrote:

Durran Korr wrote:

I don't think so. The surviving Imperial warlords in the Deep Core were too busy killing each other to put up any sort of fight against the Rebels. The only time the Core World's forces were ever under control is when Daala killed all of them.

And Thrawn made no overtures to ally himself with any of them. Prince Admiral-Krennel, for example, had a large territory enough territory to support construction of a DS, but Thrawn isolated him.

No and No. Did you even read Isard's revenge? Krennel was supporting Thrawn even though he wanted him dead, and Krennel MIGHT have been able to build a baby death star, but not the real deal.

Agreed. He himself tells that he doesnt have the resources for a death star, neither a pulsar station. Question: Did clon Isard real mean to elect Krennel as Emperor, orwas this a trick?

Ender wrote:No and No. Did you even read Isard's revenge? Krennel was supporting Thrawn even though he wanted him dead, and Krennel MIGHT have been able to build a baby death star, but not the real deal.

For real? I had no idea Thrawn dealt with traitors. I suppose it could be suspected; he has dealt with the unsavory likes of starship theives after all (Niles Ferrier). For the greater glory of the Empire, I suppose.

Ender wrote:

Durran Korr wrote:

...did you just refer to Grand Admiral Thrawn as a "strategic imbecile"?

Yeah, he was...rather than trying to court other imperial warlords that would have helped the campaign against the rebels, he tried to do it all by himself. IP is much better at this than I am, by the way, he can go on for paragraphs about it.

Yes, but unlike IP you evidently don't have all the evidence onhand. he did have all the warlords under him, getting supplies from all of them

But Thrawn still failed to do any of the following: actually ally, enlist, or possibly coordinate campiagns with the warlords (au contraire, he in fact marginalized them, according to the Essential Chronology), he was a failure as a statesman, and like Palpatine before him failed to leave behind a real second-in-command, a method of succession, political reform that could've resulted in a stable Imperial state.

These things show Thrawn's lack of long-term foresight. He's a tactical genius, of that there is no doubt....but he has shortcomings.

EDIT: And Ender, care to back up that he had support from ALL of the other warlords, a claim you just made?

Darth Garden Gnome wrote:Pestage was more than just an advisor. By TESB Pestage was running the Empire while the Emperor delved deeper into his dark side sorcerey.

President Woodrow Wilson was incapacitated by a stroke and it is believed his wife assumed many of the decisions of office for a few months, if Wilson were to die or disappear before his term was up, by your logic First Lady Wilson would be in her rights to become President.

But its wrong, because that'd be a coup'd'etat and unconstitutional.

In fact, your statement is a red herring and totally irrelevent because it does not change the fact that unless you can prove that Palpatine instructed Pestage to sieze control after his death it is still an illegal and illegitimate siezure of power regardless of Vizier Pestage's political power and administrative duties before Emperor Palpatine's physical death aboard Death Star II.

There was no legal method of succession: therefore, it is not possible for their to be a legal successor following Palpatine's death in the Galactic Empire. The most legal solution would probably be a meeting of the Imperial member states to amend the Imperial Charter to allow for a successor.

Doesn't matter since Pestage was a traitor who sold out the Empire.

Darth Garden Gnome wrote:If anyone truly new the Emperor it was him, which is why it was assumed he would continue to reign in the name of the Emperor

Bullshit. Justify this assumption.

Darth Garden Gnome wrote:(who he apparently new was still alive but was not to contact, lest Palpatine's new plans for domination be spoiled) when he died.

Unjustified Assumption. The New Essential Guide to Characters suggests that whichever Pestage (clone or real) that knew about Palpatine's plans joined him at Byss, the other one betrayed the Empire to Leia Organa.

Darth Garden Gnome wrote:The coalition of Moffs--governors, politicians, but most certaintly not leaders--and the Director of Intellegence did not share his views.

Because he had become incompetant.

The Dark Empire Sourcebook suggests Palpatine left NO will or testament; no instructions on how the Empire would be administrated in his leave. There was no legal method of succession, according to Dark Empire, because Emperor Palpatine had no intention of ever being succeeded.

Darth Garden Gnome wrote:Pestage was anything but a traitor. Had he let the Empire disintegrate right there on the spot the Emperor's attacks from the Core would've been a disaster. He tried to hold the Empire together in Palpatine's name while the Emperor recuperated from his spirit switcho-chango ordeal in the Deep Core but was betrayed by crafty politicians.

Illuminatus Primus wrote:

[i]The Essential Chronology[/i] by Kevin Anderson, pg. 70 wrote:Knowing Isard had sold him out, Pestage made preparations to defect. On Axxila, he held a secret meeting with Councilor Leia Organa to discuss terms. In exchange for leaving Coruscant undefended against a New Republic assault, he asked for twenty-five planets he could rule as he pleased. Realizing Coruscant was the key to the war effort, Organa agreed to Pestage's offer, despite her own misgivings. (emphases mine)

Darth Garden Gnome wrote:True as it may be, Pestage could not let the Empire dissapear; he had to preserve it for his Master. He would've accomplished that much better had not Isard and the Moffs hunted him down and killed him. Meanwhile Kaine, Krennel, Teradoc ect. went out on their own to gobble up the remains of the Empire and drive down its size to a mere 25% of the galaxy.

Alright, friend, I'm really trying to be understanding, but you're nearing total stupidity. He was going to sell out Coruscant to the New Republic.
The Pestage who knew about Palpatine's plans was WITH Palpatine at Byss, the Pestage that ruled the Empire and then was eliminated, a traitor, is not the same individual.

Darth Garden Gnome wrote:He did so because of Isard's treachery. As it was the Rebels were not prepared for the Palpatine's assualt on Coruscant years later, so its loss wouldn't have been substantial.

Do you care to back anything up?

Isard held the Empire together pretty well--the warlord defections were during Pestage's incompetant holding of power.

Since we know that Pestage-that-knew-of-Palpatine's-plans was at Byss, and the other one was betraying the Empire, you're going to have to do better than hand-waving to make it all be a set-up.

The truth is simple: Pestage was selling the Empire out to Leia Organa. He defines a treasonous traitor.

Darth Garden Gnome wrote:Pestage knew of Palpatine's ressurection on Byss, the loss of Coruscant meant nothing.

Wrong. Pestage-at-Byss knew about Palpatine's resurrection. Pestage-at-Coruscant was busy selling out the Empire.

Prove it was a set-up.

Darth Garden Gnome wrote:The only reason Pestage didn't hold the Empire together was greedy political schemers stabbing him in the back. Palpatine's affinity to the Force could prevent such situations (except for the embarrasing Zaarin incident); Pestage was just a man. But he had been running the Empire for a year. Had it not been for the warlords who left after Endor the loss of the Death Star would be nil. Had they flocked to Pestage's banner they could still use their massive fleet to subdue the Rebels. They did not, and the Empire crumbled because of it.

Because he was incompetant. Zsinj, Teradoc, Harrsk, Kaine, Drommel, Krennel--they all broke away before Isard took power. Who broke away from Isard?

Darth Garden Gnome wrote:It doesn't seem to be that way, because that's not how it went down. The Interim Ruling Council obeyed Pestage, until Isard back-stabbed him. At that point the Ruling Council put a death mark on him.

What kind of rebuttal is that? My points were none of the successors were legitimate, since no legal solution was available to replace Palpatine.

And on my other point, after Isard, what was left of the Emperor's Ruling Circle (NOT the same thing as the post-Onderon Interim Ruling Council) ruled with the remnants of the CENTCOMIT ruled the Empire.

Nothing you say refutes that. My post wasn't about the Ruling Circle before Isard.

Darth Garden Gnome wrote:I am aware of Pestage's surrender. But he knew something Leia didn't: The Emperor was alive. He would come, and there was no way the Coruscant Defense Fleet could possibly be prepared for it. Had Krennel teamed up with Pestage and too learned of the Emperor's returned they could've used their resources to actually fight the Rebels instead of letting the Empire crumble.

The Pestage who aided Palpatine's campiagns was at Byss, with him. The other Pestage was betraying the Empire.

Darth Garden Gnome wrote:They also conquered much of Teradoc's territory also. The foolish ambitions of Zsinj and Teradoc led to the loss of much Imperial territory, and inadvertently the other warlords who had weakened the Empire's fleet were also at fault.

No. Teradoc was involved in the battles over Zsinj's former domain. He didn't suffer territorial losses.

Darth Garden Gnome wrote:They are traitors. No Imperial commander of the remaining Empire would be caught dealing with traitors.

Yet the Emperor himself still saw them as worthy of recruitment, while Palpatine precipitated Thrawn elimination. That's odd.

Darth Garden Gnome wrote:I'm sure they wanted to join: the Emperor had the element of surprise to a Rebel fleet far from the Core. They would be fools not to; but they were in it for themselves, not any Emperor. They slaughtered each other in the Imperial Mutiny once Coruscant was theirs: some loyal soldiers they were.

They weren't all traitors: that was the whole point of the Imperial Mutiny. To cull the weak from the strong. And the participants of the Imperial Mutiny were unaware of Palpatine's return: he was killing off the weak before he revealed himself and reestablished his throne.

Darth Garden Gnome wrote:I doubt she felt she held any obligation to Palpatine. She illegally seized the throne in his passing (whether or not Pestage was the rightful leader). She did what she did because she didn't want to die.

In Isard's Revenge her last painful thought is how she failed her Emperor. Wrong again.

Darth Garden Gnome wrote:Let's see: he was running the Empire since TESB, the Inner Rim Ruling Council obeyed him, and the rest of the Empire obeyed him. There was just one scheming Director of Intellegence that screwed it all up.

Hm, a pity that nearly all the mutinies and warlords broke off during Pestage's reign? And do you even know what heir apparent means? Do you understand that none of that is red herrings before the fact that Palpatine left no legal method of succession, therefore there CANNOT BE A LEGAL SUCCESSOR?

Darth Garden Gnome wrote:Palpatine killed neither Thrawn or Pestage.

Dark Empire Sourcebook explains that Palpatine arranged for Thrawn's elimination.

Darth Wong wrote:If Thrawn were in Jerjerrod's place, he would have used the superlaser on the most important targets first, rather than simply targeting ships at random. This means Home One goes down immediately, and the Rebel fleet has just lost its flagship. He will then take out other vessels in sequence, thus making Palpatine's trap far more effective.

If Thrawn were in Piett's place, he probably would have been taken some kind of aggressive action when the Rebels charged into the midst of his fleet. Piett apparently held back and allowed his ships to freelance defensively, with no real co-ordinated plan. Thrawn might have either co-ordinated some kind of attack on the most important Rebel ships first or ordered his ships to scatter in order to disperse the action and clear the fire lanes for the DS2 superlaser.

The Rebel success hinged on chance. Only two Rebel craft managed to make it into the DS2 reactor chamber alive even with all of the things that went wrong. Even a small shift in fortunes would have turned it the other way, and produced an Imperial victory even if the shield generator were taken down and the Emperor killed.

I say that if Thrawn is in either Piett's place or Jerjerrod's place, the Empire walks away with a victory.

But Palpatine would still be dead, Vader would still have turned, and Luke would still be alive.

Can Luke take on the entire DS II in order to get out, this time without the panic caused by Executor ramming the station?

Once it's been determined that the shield generator base has been taken over, stormtroopers can be dispatched to clean up on Endor. Or better yet, chemical weapons. Or if Thrawn is feeling lazy, an HTL.

Result: Thrawn is the new Emperor.

[quote="Illuminatus Primuslike Palpatine before him failed to leave behind a real second-in-command, a method of succession, political reform that could've resulted in a stable Imperial state.[/quote]

Got any good candidates that we are sure actually exist (listed somewhere?) He DID kind of have a second-in-command. Too bad it was Pellaeon.

Of course, we all know he SHOULD have a huge staff... which would make it easy to find successors

Pelleaon was NOT his second-in-command. Pelleaon was the commander of his flagship.

Illuminatus Primus wrote:Pelleaon was NOT his second-in-command. Pelleaon was the commander of his flagship.

I don't know. In HTTE, he handles many of Thrawn's errands. He's the closest to it I know of... unless you know someone else...