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So the Rebellion seems more like a guerilla organisation. Does that explain why small starfighters with hyperdrives like the X-Wing are so important to them ?

Darth Wong wrote:

Crazedwraith wrote:Thread Hi-Jacking in process.
How could Tarkin "crush the rebellion with one swift stroke"? Surely it should have been a cell-like organisation. So that attacking one small piece of the webb would'nt unravel the whole dam thing. Was Tarkin being overly-optimistic or was the rebellion ao badly organised that blowing up a single base would crush it?

He was being optimistic. The Americans thought they could crush Al-Quaeda by blowing up some training camps in Afghanistan too.

Not in this case. Whether by design or sheer good fortune, the ANH novelisation states that a significant portion of Senators, Generals and other prominent, important rebel leaders were at Yavin IV.

The destruction of Yavin IV would not only have sent a message to wavering worlds, it would also have logically crippled the Rebels logistical, finanicial and maybe even recruiting networks, thus negating the Rebels ability to function as a united organisation.


Also, note that in the opening scenes for the Death Star, in the novel, the Rebels were described as having a safe and secure base to hide and rest their pilots before venturing forth into battle. It might be possible that the HQ at Yavin IV represented the sole, operating military base the Rebels then had.

He was being optimistic. The Americans thought they could crush Al-Quaeda by blowing up some training camps in Afghanistan too.

The Americans would never defeat Al-Queda untill they eliminate the root causes of terrorism.

Where is it stated that the Rebels had Cruisers arround Yavin. As far ask i knew Ackbar was rescued from Tarkins tender care just before Yavin. He then joined the Rebellion becoming one of it's top commanders and he convinced the Mon Cal goverment to assist/join the alliance and convert the Star Liners into Star Cruisers. However that required an eqtensive refit for each ship becaise of the unique design of each individual ship and the fact they they where built transparent and not very heavily armoured.

One thing to remember is that there was ongoing Imperial expansion in this period into the region broadly called as "Wild Space", consolidating the minor polities there into the Galactic Empire. Many of these governments which chose to resist attempted to gain the support of the Rebel Alliance in some fashion or another; and various fleet bases in the extreme outer sectors probably briefly existed, flickering from one pocket of resistance to another. Some of the rag-tag ships in the Rebel fleet might also have been remnants of the defensive forces of these systems, for that matter.

evilcat4000 wrote:So the Rebellion seems more like a guerilla organisation. Does that explain why small starfighters with hyperdrives like the X-Wing are so important to them ?

Small Starfighters with Hyperdrives are a helluva lot cheaper and easier to get than a capital ship. They can perform a wide variety of operations on their own, their small size makes them more covert, and with Hyperdirve they could escape from Imperial forces better.

I think the Rebels place more or just as much importance in the X Wings Shields. Allowing pilots to survive missions and engagements so that they can improve. For an organization like that experienced pilots are a hot commodity. Better pilots help eliminate that numerical advantage.

Only a handfull worlds supported the rebellion (on government level) at the time of BoY. The novelisation mentions that during the briefing there were senators and generals from worlds supporting the rebellion secretly or openly. (This means at least one world supported the rebellion openly.)
The prolog of the ANH novelisation (the first legend of the Whill chronicle) is quite clear that a few worlds rebelled and they were in oppressive disadvantage. And later Motti (I think) said that the rebellion was only dangereous as long as they had a secret base.
However on the other hand, the rebells succesfully attacked the imperial fleet just prior to ANH for the first time, and both Motti and Tagge agreed that the rebels were well equipped and dangereous (at least to the imperial starfleet).

The Rebels were small, with few ships and resources pre-ANH, but after they destroyed the DS, it showed that maybe they could bring the Empire down. This would've gotten them alot of support and needed ships and resources.

Of course, this is just one newbies opinion.

PainRack wrote:Also, note that in the opening scenes for the Death Star, in the novel, the Rebels were described as having a safe and secure base to hide and rest their pilots before venturing forth into battle. It might be possible that the HQ at Yavin IV represented the sole, operating military base the Rebels then had.

You mean except for the support structure for all of the Fleet? If we use Hoth as a model for the whole "secret Rebel base" concept, Yavin IV was a HQ and High Command base, and it doesn't appear to me they kept that much materiel centred on these bases in case they fell. Of course the decentralization around Hoth could have been a reaction to Yavin IV and we simply didn't see a lot of the base and resources there.

Some small but canon notions of the scale of the Rebellion.

A New Hope Novelisation, page 179. wrote: " You all know these people," he intoned with quiet power. "They are the Senators and Generals whose worlds have given us support, whether open or covert. They have come to be with us in what may well prove to be the decisive moment."

REturn of the Jedi novelization, page 71 wrote: "In a remote and midnight vacuum beyond the edeg of the galaxy, the vast Rebel fleet stretched, from its vanguard to its rear echelon, past the range of human vision. Corellian battle ships, cruisers, destroyers, carriers, bombers, Sullustan cargo freighters, CAlamarian Tankers, Alderaanian gunships, Kesselian blockade runners, Bestinian skyhoppers, X-wing, Y-wing, A-wing fighters, shuttles, transport vehicles, manowards. Every Rebel in the galaxy, soldier and civilian alike, waited tensely in these ships for instructions. They were led by the largest of the Rebel Star cruisers, the Headquarters Frigate."

Also note that prior to its destruction in ROTJ, the radio drama mentions the Baji (which IIRC they called Bajic) shipyards, which were indicated to have been a severe blow to the Rebellion. OFficially, GG5 made mention of "Corellian battleships" participating in Endor as well.

WE know the Rebels had to have held or used at least 1000 worlds, if not more, based on the mention of "Sector commands" for the REbellion in the RASB.

Edit: We can speculate the possible existence of a third shipyard in the Airam Sector (comparable to, or nearly so, to the Mon Cal yards.) based on the X-wing "Balance of Power" game.

Connor MacLeod wrote:We can speculate the possible existence of a third shipyard in the Airam Sector (comparable to, or nearly so, to the Mon Cal yards.) based on the X-wing "Balance of Power" game.

What proof is there that the Rebels actually held Mon Calamari?

Illuminatus Primus wrote:

Connor MacLeod wrote:We can speculate the possible existence of a third shipyard in the Airam Sector (comparable to, or nearly so, to the Mon Cal yards.) based on the X-wing "Balance of Power" game.

What proof is there that the Rebels actually held Mon Calamari?

What the bloody FUCK does ownership have to do with whether or not the Alliance had access to other shipyards, particularily in Airam? Or for my original point that matter?

Connor MacLeod wrote:What the bloody FUCK does ownership have to do with whether or not the Alliance had access to other shipyards, particularily in Airam? Or for my original point that matter?

I thought you were implying in addition to the Rebels' shipyards at Mon Cal, not just that the shipyards were comparable to those the Mon Calamari had constructed.

Illuminatus Primus wrote:

Connor MacLeod wrote:What the bloody FUCK does ownership have to do with whether or not the Alliance had access to other shipyards, particularily in Airam? Or for my original point that matter?

I thought you were implying in addition to the Rebels' shipyards at Mon Cal, not just that the shipyards were comparable to those the Mon Calamari had constructed.

Uh, right.

The only planets they "hold" are those they establish bases on, which by definition are sparsely inhabited or uninhabited. Planets that they can basically hide oin without detection. There are also the various "Safe Worlds" established by the Alliance as well (some of which in fact also serve as manufactuing facilitieS)

The Airam yards (probably), the Mon Cal yards, and the Baji yards (owned by Tenloss IIRC Shadows of the Empire) are examples of resources owned by people allied with the Rebellion. That qualifies as "held by the Rebellion" - the Mon Calamari were a substantially active component of the Rebellion, even canonically. (The New Republic could be a vastly different matter.)

Yeah I know, but I'm unconvinced that Rebel sympathizers owned the shipyards on Mon Calamari until after Endor. I would've expected the Imperials to leave a garrison within a hyperjump away and leave a puppet group of collaborators in charge of Mon Cal and the shipyards after their occupation ended.

Not doubt that the Calamarian government-in-exile, her fleet, and any outlier shipyards or bases were probably alligned with the Rebellion, though.

Illuminatus Primus wrote:

PainRack wrote:Also, note that in the opening scenes for the Death Star, in the novel, the Rebels were described as having a safe and secure base to hide and rest their pilots before venturing forth into battle. It might be possible that the HQ at Yavin IV represented the sole, operating military base the Rebels then had.

You mean except for the support structure for all of the Fleet? If we use Hoth as a model for the whole "secret Rebel base" concept, Yavin IV was a HQ and High Command base, and it doesn't appear to me they kept that much materiel centred on these bases in case they fell. Of course the decentralization around Hoth could have been a reaction to Yavin IV and we simply didn't see a lot of the base and resources there.

We know that after the debacle at Yavin IV, the Rebels further decentralised their bases. Remember, despite the victory at Yavin IV and IIRC, days before the Empire sent a task force to investage what happened to the Death Star, General Dodonna was still on Yavin IV to coordinate the evacuation , suggesting that the base at Yavin contained significantly larger amounts of supplies, men and equipment than the Hoth base.

Illuminatus Primus wrote:Yeah I know, but I'm unconvinced that Rebel sympathizers owned the shipyards on Mon Calamari until after Endor. I would've expected the Imperials to leave a garrison within a hyperjump away and leave a puppet group of collaborators in charge of Mon Cal and the shipyards after their occupation ended.

But if the Mon Cal had enough of their bigger ships at Calamari, they could hold their world since the EMpire was already stretched trhoughotu the galaxy both keeping its other systems under control and also seeking out the Rebellion. At that point the Empire probably couldn't spare the ships for a large fleet engagement, especially with the defection of SoroSuub (and effectively Sullust itself).

IIRC Sullust and Mon Cal are close. the Alliance may have been able to hold that area of space around the time of Endor.

Alos, mon Calamari was towards the top of the list in terms of worlds to be annhilated by the Death Star, why waste resources pacifying the planet all over again if the Death Star will handle everything upon completion?

Darth Fanboy wrote:But if the Mon Cal had enough of their bigger ships at Calamari, they could hold their world since the EMpire was already stretched trhoughotu the galaxy both keeping its other systems under control and also seeking out the Rebellion. At that point the Empire probably couldn't spare the ships for a large fleet engagement,

I don't think so. If the Mon Cal fleet present at Endor is any indicator, it's that the Calamari couldn't spare any ships for a fleet engagement. A handful of Mon Cal cruisers would be smashed all to hell and back by something as small as, say, Darth Vader's Death Squadron, which was detailed to hunt down a light frieghter in TESB. I think they could repsond to something more important like overrunning a large shipyard defended by less than 20 cruisers.

especially with the defection of SoroSuub (and effectively Sullust itself).

SoroSuub did not defect to the Rebellion. Sullustians like Nien Numb joined the Alliance because SoroSuub was under the Empire's sway; Numb and groups of other unruly pirates raided SoroSuub supply lines but couldn't cause significant harm to the business. Sullust too did not defect to the Rebellion; the Rebels just used it as a jump-off point to Endor (it's quite possible they were no where near the actual planet but just in the solar system).

Alos, mon Calamari was towards the top of the list in terms of worlds to be annhilated by the Death Star, why waste resources pacifying the planet all over again if the Death Star will handle everything upon completion?

It was not. The Imperials held Calamari as of ROTJ because they wanted to use their shipyards; just because a few pleasure cruisers escaped into Rebel hands is hardly reason to obliterate the planet with the Death Star and its vast and powerful shipyard.

Darth Garden Gnome wrote: don't think so. If the Mon Cal fleet present at Endor is any indicator, it's that the Calamari couldn't spare any ships for a fleet engagement. A handful of Mon Cal cruisers would be smashed all to hell and back by something as small as, say, Darth Vader's Death Squadron, which was detailed to hunt down a light frieghter in TESB. I think they could repsond to something more important like overrunning a large shipyard defended by less than 20 cruisers.

Darth Vaders Death Squadron was searching for the Millenium Falcon indeed, but your forget that they had to blast their way for an asteroid belt as well as hunt down the Falcon.

Its possible they could respond, but since Emperor Palpatine wanted to sMash the Rebellion in its entirety at Endor, he wouldnt want to fragment the Rebels any further than necessary.

SoroSuub did not defect to the Rebellion. Sullustians like Nien Numb joined the Alliance because SoroSuub was under the Empire's sway; Numb and groups of other unruly pirates raided SoroSuub supply lines but couldn't cause significant harm to the business. Sullust too did not defect to the Rebellion; the Rebels just used it as a jump-off point to Endor (it's quite possible they were no where near the actual planet but just in the solar system).

Are you sure? I recall that the reason the Rebel Fleet was even able to mass near Sullust (RoTJ) was due to the defection of SoroSuub. I'll have to look it up.

It was not. The Imperials held Calamari as of ROTJ because they wanted to use their shipyards; just because a few pleasure cruisers escaped into Rebel hands is hardly reason to obliterate the planet with the Death Star and its vast and powerful shipyard.

Mon Calamari WAS at the top of that list according to the EU. Check out Dark Empire , Calarmari was at the top of that list for the Death Star hence the reason that the Reborn emperor sent the world devastators to that world.

vakundok wrote: snip
However on the other hand, the rebells succesfully attacked the imperial fleet just prior to ANH for the first time, and both Motti and Tagge agreed that the rebels were well equipped and dangereous (at least to the imperial starfleet).

Given what they were after, namly the DS plans, its possible that they used their resources to amush the ships that held the plans. They may well have had a numerical advantage over the imp force in question, and this was the first action that the rebels showed that they could bring down an imperial force. Untill then it may have been was thought the rebels to be quite unable to handle the imps in battle, hence "they are better equipped than you think".
This does not however mean that the rebels could seriously challange the Imperial navy in open warfare.
Just my opinion.

Small Starfighters with Hyperdrives are a helluva lot cheaper and easier to get than a capital ship. They can perform a wide variety of operations on their own, their small size makes them more covert, and with Hyperdirve they could escape from Imperial forces better.

I think the Rebels place more or just as much importance in the X Wings Shields. Allowing pilots to survive missions and engagements so that they can improve. For an organization like that experienced pilots are a hot commodity. Better pilots help eliminate that numerical advantage.

I was also considering another theory. Since Rebel fighters are equipped with hyperdrives Rebel ships can launch their fighters from a distance. The fighters can then hyperspace to their target, complete their mission and hyperspace back to their ship. That way the Rebels would not have to expose their capital ships to the mighty Imperial Star Destroyers.

Darth Fanboy wrote:But if the Mon Cal had enough of their bigger ships at Calamari, they could hold their world since the EMpire was already stretched trhoughotu the galaxy both keeping its other systems under control and also seeking out the Rebellion. At that point the Empire probably couldn't spare the ships for a large fleet engagement, especially with the defection of SoroSuub (and effectively Sullust itself).

IIRC Sullust and Mon Cal are close. the Alliance may have been able to hold that area of space around the time of Endor.

Alos, mon Calamari was towards the top of the list in terms of worlds to be annhilated by the Death Star, why waste resources pacifying the planet all over again if the Death Star will handle everything upon completion?

Before you debate this with me, please read this: More proof the Empire is seriously undermilitarized...

The fact that the Empire was severely undermilitarized is supported bu the Truce at Bakura. At the beginning of the Ssi-Ruuk invasion Han Solo says himself that the nearest available Imperial Fleet (Death Squadron) was in dry dock. This means that quite a few sectors where undefended, meaning that the Imperial fleet was very under strength.

Lord Pounder wrote:The fact that the Empire was severely undermilitarized is supported bu the Truce at Bakura. At the beginning of the Ssi-Ruuk invasion Han Solo says himself that the nearest available Imperial Fleet (Death Squadron) was in dry dock. This means that quite a few sectors where undefended, meaning that the Imperial fleet was very under strength.

What the...?

How does the fact that the local fleet was under drydock mean the whole Imperial fleet was under-strength?

And Bakura was a minor colony, not a member world, AND Palpatine had willingly allowed the Ssi-ruuk to invade some outlying colonies in exchange for entechment technology.

Darth Fanboy wrote:Darth Vaders Death Squadron was searching for the Millenium Falcon indeed, but your forget that they had to blast their way for an asteroid belt as well as hunt down the Falcon.

My point is that if a massive fleet like Death Squadron can be detailed to do something a trivial as hunt down a light freighter, than a fleet of equal or larger size could easily be used to overrun a large shipyard.

If the Rebels had controled Mon Calamari and its shipyards, they would've had more than a dozen Mon Cal cruisers to throw at the largest and most important attack in the Alliance's history.

Are you sure? I recall that the reason the Rebel Fleet was even able to mass near Sullust (RoTJ) was due to the defection of SoroSuub. I'll have to look it up.

The NEGTC describes Nien Numb having to run an Imperial blockade to join the Rebels just before the Battle of Endor. Clearly they did not defect if this were so.

Mon Calamari WAS at the top of that list according to the EU. Check out Dark Empire , Calarmari was at the top of that list for the Death Star hence the reason that the Reborn emperor sent the world devastators to that world.

The events of Dark Empire took place TEN YEARS after the Emperor's death at Endor. Pre-Endor, the Rebels were able to make away with a few pleasure cruisers from Calamari's docks--powerful ships yes, but hardly a reason to lose such a valuable resource--ten years later Mon Cal was one of the NRs largest and well-defended planets. Why start a massive campaign to just re-aquire the docks (especially intact) when it would be easier to strip the planet itself of the resources that make it so powerful? This required weapons previously unavailible to the Empire: World Devastators.