Illuminatus Primus wrote:Ender wrote:When they design destroyers so that they already carry massive loads of fighters, yes it really is that easy. I chose my example for a reason, its essentially what they are doing.
The
Defender was part of a seperate project (the Defender Project, as opposed to the New Class), and later drafted into the New Class apparently as the
Nebula (?) as the
Endurance-class's counterpart. Point being that they apparently started off with the
Defender and shoehorned it into the
Endurance's "twin." At least that is what I gathered.
You gather that based off what exactly? the Author says it was always part of the New class series.
My point isn't that its impossible, but that a fleet carrier role and heavy destroyer role (esp. one that doesn't require the multi-roles that the ISD did or its range) would be better served and more effective with dedicated vessels and spaceframes.
My point is that it might not. I point back to my original example: While the Virginia class might have had some benefits going off a straight fast attack designed frame (speed primarily), basing it off a boomer means the things can carry more missiles, can carry a seal team for longer, and are even quieter and easier to run. And thats on top of the economic factors.
Ender wrote:You are making the claim, not me, therefore you must provide the backing. No shifting involved.
I'm saying the New Class didn't get implemented outside of the Fifth Fleet.
The New Class has only been seen in the Fifth Fleet from BFC to NJO. It hasn't been seen implemented anywhere outside of the Fifth Fleet, so why should it be assumed that the entire fleet was standardized along those lines?
Repitition of your conclusion in your reasoning.
Ender wrote:Care to point out a time we have not had more then a glib description merely saying "fleets" or "ships"?
Have the specified vessels in the NJO by-and-large been older designs, Star Destroyers (some with grav-wells, which suggests the
Dominator-class ships),
Negative, clearly not a Dominator style as they were older ships recently modified to have projectors that did not require external bumps. All it says is that they are "star destroyers" which gives no indication of class.
and newer ships like the KDY Republic-class Cruiser (based on descriptions probably fills the role of the Majestic-class Heavy Cruiser),
You think a cruiser fills the role of a frigate?
older Corellian Corvettes and Gunships, Ranger-class Gunships (the latter of which fill the Warrior-class's role),
The NJO has "gunships" that fall into the frigate/destroyer are. We also know that the Republic is famous for the name game (calling its star destroyers star cruisers and using Star defender instead of star battleship. Its the same ship modern governments pull calling ships cruisers and frigates instead of destroyers because they sound more peaceful). We lack any information about its weaponry or tonnage and only know that it appeared alongside an ISD2 at Heleska 4. In otherwords, we cannot classify it and show that it replaces the Warrior.
Star Defenders and Battlecruisers which run against the carrier-group tactics that I observed from BFC.
Your observation was shot down by Wilkins to be in error. In the BFC fighters carried special anti cap ship weapons to soften the targets so that star destroyers escorted by heavy cruisers could pound them into dirt. This is exactly what we see in the NJO era.
Ender wrote:You made the claim it was all gone, and rather then present new ships the fulfill the roles of the old ones (thus showing that it was failed and replaced) are trying to use the known ambiguity to prove your point.
Well, we have not seen the New Class presented anywhere since BFC. Why should we assume that the NRDF was further standardized by the New Class? [/quote]Because it was never said to be halted and we know that at the time of the Centerpoint situation that the bulk fo the fleet was being upgraded and replaced.
Ender wrote:What you are doing is akin to saying "The Navy bought an aircraft carrier, therfore submarines are failed designs".
I see older designs which the New Class was intended to replace due to logistical and training difficulties like the CC-7700 frigates (and ISDs and Interdictor SDs) in service.
Its called "phasing out".
I also see Star Defenders and Battlecrusiers which run against the carrier taskforce tactics I see the New Class as representing.
See above. I still think I am on target in my position that your dislike for parts of the books and the author have colored your preceptions as to what was in them.
Filling the small cruiser mold in lieu of the New Class Majestic-class Heavy Cruiser or older ships like the Dreadnought-class Heavy Cruiser is the new and larger KDY Republic-class Cruiser and Bothan Assault Cruisers.
I think I'm seeing the root of the problem here: You don't know how to classify ships.
Classification is basically based of 3 things: Role, weaponry, and tonnage. For example, see the proposed DDX. In terms of tonnage, is is a mere 400 tons less then a Missouri class battleship. But its weponry (relative to the modern day) and role are both that of a destroyer, hence its classification as such.
Majestic class: Tonnage is unknown, so that is out. But its weaponry is lighter then that carried by destroyers, and in battle its role was to escort them and fight. This points to the ship serving as a frigate. As an aside, if we go by length instead of tonnage, its also in the Firgate range as well.
Republic class: Tonnage again unknown. Its weaponry puts it in the cruiser range, as does its role. So its a cruiser.
Bothan Assault Cruiser: Tonnage unknown. Weapons loadout puts it in the Destroyer range, and was suppossedly designed to fill the role of the VSD (possible propaganda). Fulfills the multiple roles of flagship, carrier, escort, and combatant like destroyers do. But also appears to serve the primary role of convoy escort. That couples with its comparison to the VSD make it an Escort Destroyer.
We see older ISDs serving instead of Defender SDs, which are only slated for once a year for the New Class's run.
Of course we would still see ISDs, they are still extremely good ships and they would be being slowly phased out once the stuff like the Mon Cal type destroyers were gone. But unless we know more Imperial type ones are being produced it doesnt show.
And FYI I just fired off an email to K-mac trying to get more info about those things since all the published info is FUBAR.
Newer Ranger-class and older Corellian Gunships serve in that role in the place of the Warrior-class.
Ranger is unknown, Corellian Gunships lileky slowly being phased out. Its a big fleet, there will be alot of the suckers.
As for carrier duty, that's been assumed mostly by old Star Destroyers.
We've seen the Rogues operate out of a flagship, as they always have since the Admirals like to keep the high profile squadrons nearby, and we have seen the jedi squadrons operate from fixed bases. Other then that we have seen about nil as to how fighters are brought into the area.
At least half the roles of the New Class vessels (Gunships, Cruiser, Star Destroyer, and Carrier) have direct analogues (or at least ships who seem to be occupying the roles in the place of dedicated vessels),
Dealt with.
and some of those older designs that the New Class was supposed to phase out of the fleet.
The fact that the fleet is huge and that in a time of peace shipbuilding will slow doesn't let you accept the fact that there will still be a considerable number of older ships yet to be replaced doesn't let you account for that?
Short-range fighters are nowhere to be seen, and anti-capship roles that were to be filled by the K-Wing are served by new long-range space superiority/strike starfighters like the XJ X-Wing and Series II E-Wing.
So even though you say in your post they fulfill different roles, you claim the fill the same ones?
Ender wrote:K-wings have made appearances, Defenders were designed for local system defense so why the hell would they appear?
Where?
NEGVV says they "first appeared during the Black Fleet Crisis 16 standard years after the battle of Yavin, and have been mobilized for nearly every subseuent conflict." and I could swear I read about them somewhere else even if I can't find the passage right now.
And since almost the entire war up to Destiny's Way featured local system defense and combat, I don't see it as that far-fetched.
The sole time we saw local forces stand up to the Vong was at Duro, where the bulk of the combat was not scene as it focused on the Jedi. Rest of the time it was a Republic fleet facing them down.
Ender wrote:None of which replace the old ships, merely flesh out the fleet. Thus it does not show a thing. What part of this is so damn hard to grasp?
What's so hard to grasp that the Bothan Assault Cruiser and
Republic-class have replaced the
Majestic-class,
The fact that you think the role of a frigate would be filled by an escort destroyer and a cruiser would be my chief impediment.
the new Ranger-class has superceded the New Class Warrior-class Gunships, older Corellian Gunships also fill the role,
See above
Imperator-class and Dominator-class Star Destroyers instead of Defender-/Nebula-class Star Destroyers and
I have no problem with ISD hold-overs, you need to show that they were constructed instead of being phased out. And the Mon Mothma and her sisters were not Dominators.
Endurance-class Carriers, and heavy hitters like the Mediator-class Battlecruiser and Viscount-class Star Defender which are part of a "big-ship" philosophy that seems to run counter to the roles the New Class vessels occupy.
The statemrnt that the NR avoids and decommssions big ships is simply wrong as we know that they kept the Luysankya and had several multi km long ships. As we know it to be wrong, and you agree that it was, I cannot fathom why you are trying to use it to support yourself.
The anti-capship assault roles have been mostly taken over by long range space superiority fighters operating from fixed bases or Star Destroyers like the XJ, not short-range bombers like the K-Wing operating from in-theater carriers.
The X wing is a F. the Ewing is a F/A. The K-wing is a bomber. Yet they replace each others roles?
Ender wrote:The one shown to be in error and that the person thinking it was mistaken?
Exactly.
If you agree that the statement was wrong, why the hell are you using it to support your argument?
The New Class hasn't been seen outside the Fifth Fleet during the Black Fleet Crisis, and rather, the old fleet philosophy and Order of Battle has mostly remained intact, bolstered by new vessels (like the Bothan Assault Cruiser and Republic-class) occupying roles previously filled by the New Class vessels (Majestic-class)
See above.
and a large assortment of various older ships (Dreadnought-class),
Where?
and said constellation of lighter ships around a few heavy hitting leviathans, such as older Imperator-class or Dominator-class Star Destroyers,
See above
and MC80s and even new Mediator-class and Viscount-class ships.
I can't remember an 80, IIRC the ship at Ord Mantell was a 90. And Mediator and Viscounts don't prove a thing.
Ender wrote:No, their purpose was to standardize the fleet. Which is precisely what they did.
They standardized the Fifth Fleet. And thereafter, the New Class was not seen again. But the New Jedi Order shows us many fleets and armadas composed of the motely collection of older ships around a philosophy similar to pre-New Class ships.
No, the philosophy is identical. Fighters with heavy weapons soften up the targets, then cap ships come in and pound them. We saw this at Endor. We saw this in the Pre DE era. We saw this in the BFC. We see this in the NJO. The fighting style and philosophy hasn't changed.
Ender wrote:That book is so full of errors it isn't funny. any information it puts forth is highly suspect at the least. Is there an introduction to it similar to the one that appears in the Imperial Sourcebook?
Does it matter? Do you have contradictory evidence on the
Defender-class SD that isn't in itself flawed?
Awaiting email response.
Can you point out to me the Defender-class Star Destroyers throughout the post-BFC fleets that show it actually had much larger production?
We know the name of the ship is wrong. We know the weapons loadout is wrong. We know the statement that it could stomp an ISD head to head is wrong. But somehow the tiny tidbit that supports you is right?
Ender wrote:Why the hell would they buy it to justify the R&D, the R&D would be carried out by private corporations, same as how aircraft companies try to sell replacements for the space shuttle.
Why do you think we bought the B-2 Spirit for well over a billion plus per unit? We originally were going to buy hundreds, and thus the price was only the millions per unit.
Which doesn't explain at all why they would have to buy it to justify the R&D that they didn't have to pay for. Hell, there wouldn't even be any R&D, just designing.
