M$ to integrate Windows with BIOS... dammit

PROMETHEUS · Post by **PROMETHEUS** » 2003-10-16 08:18pm

His Divine Shadow wrote:I dunno what Is is but forward slashes work in XP anyway.

ls = LIst files

It's basically the *nix equivalent of your DIR command.

Hethrir · Post by **Hethrir** » 2003-10-17 04:51am

Crazy_Vasey wrote:...I don't have the vertical bar either...

pipe?

Sarevok · Post by **Sarevok** » 2003-10-17 09:59am

Crazy_Vasey wrote:Yeah, forward slashes work for most things. I'd be knackered if they didn't as I have a US keyboard and with a UK mapping there's no backslash, which is a bit of a pain when you're programming. I don't have the vertical bar either, which makes programming in Haskell a little difficult.

Haskell ? What kind of language is it ?

Xon · Post by **Xon** » 2003-10-17 10:08am

linky

Gates says he isn't aware of Microsoft expanding its relationship with BIOS maker Phoenix Technologies in a deal designed to more closely integrate the basic building blocks of the PC with the Longhorn system, as suggested by ZDNET. Both Microsoft and Phoenix are involved in plans to integrate digital rights management (DRM) technology at the operating system and hardware level, according to sources in the US.

"To be honest, I haven't heard from Phoenix Technologies for over five years," Gates said. "Are they still in business? The BIOS will always be separated from the operating system. Actually, it's gotten out of date. If you run Windows XP, it calls very little of the BIOS."

Sure its from The Register, but thats a direct quote from Bill Gates there.

If anyone can come up with something else, please tell me.

Sarevok · Post by **Sarevok** » 2003-10-17 10:44am

Seriously there may some advantages if Windows was integrated with the BIOS. Few computer programs call BIOS functions because it is highly complicated and since BIOSes differ widely portability is a issue.

But if Windows encapsulated BIOS in an easy to use API then programmers could make system-independent calls to the BIOS to achieve things that are normaly clumsly or impossible to do otherwise. This could result in faster and more powerful programs.

Something similar happened during the early 3d revolution. During the DOS era programmers could directly access video hardware. This allowed writting fast, efficient games. But when Windows came this was no longer possible since Windows prevented direct access to hardware. Instead it required programs use an inefficient system called the GDI.

As a solution DirectX was created. DirectX provides a HAL(Hardware Abstraction Layer). This allows programs to make direct system independent access to hardware features such as 3d acceleration. If a feature is not present in a video card DirectX emulates it by software. Without DirectX system independent access to video hardware would not be possible since graphics cards differ widely.

Similarly if the BIOS is integrated with Windows programs could access low level BIOS features directly without worring about compatibility. This could result in faster and better software.

Crayz9000 · Post by **Crayz9000** » 2003-10-17 11:15am

Can you say "new virus causes widespread computer failures"?

Sarevok · Post by **Sarevok** » 2003-10-17 11:43am

Crayz9000 wrote:Can you say "new virus causes widespread computer failures"?

The BIOS does not need to be accessed to cause widespread computer failures. There many ways to do that.

Also it is possible to build security measures right into the BIOS. For example in Windows 2000 only service packs and programs that have right authorization can make changes to system critical files.

Even you could not delete system critical files like Kernel32.dll or user32.dll. Try deleting them. The system will confirm that they have been deleted but in reality Windows will immediatly replace them with a backup copy.

Crayz9000 · Post by **Crayz9000** » 2003-10-17 12:52pm

evilcat4000 wrote:The BIOS does not need to be accessed to cause widespread computer failures. There many ways to do that.

Also it is possible to build security measures right into the BIOS. For example in Windows 2000 only service packs and programs that have right authorization can make changes to system critical files.

Even you could not delete system critical files like Kernel32.dll or user32.dll. Try deleting them. The system will confirm that they have been deleted but in reality Windows will immediatly replace them with a backup copy.

I'm talking about the BIOS features. Remember the old adage, all security can be broken?

The problem is that with access to the basic input/output system, nastiness such as overriding the processor temp warning sensors is theoretically possible. Unlikely, yes, but it still may be possible depending on how it's set up.

There is a VERY GOOD reason to have the BIOS and operating system separate from each other.

Crazy_Vasey · Post by **Crazy_Vasey** » 2003-10-17 12:59pm

Hethrir wrote:
Crazy_Vasey wrote:...I don't have the vertical bar either...
pipe?

Err. I have no idea what it's called. It's just a straight, vertical line.

Haskell ? What kind of language is it ?

Functional.

phongn · Post by **phongn** » 2003-10-17 03:14pm

That's called a pipe.

aerius · Post by **aerius** » 2003-10-17 09:17pm

evilcat4000 wrote:The BIOS does not need to be accessed to cause widespread computer failures. There many ways to do that.

Also it is possible to build security measures right into the BIOS. For example in Windows 2000 only service packs and programs that have right authorization can make changes to system critical files.

"Microsoft" and "security" do not go in the same sentence unless it's something like "50 critical security holes found in MS product this week, and only 36 of them have patches". Given Microshit's past record on program security, a sieve will have fewer leaks than an MS integrated BIOS.

Sarevok · Post by **Sarevok** » 2003-10-19 10:21am

I'm talking about the BIOS features. Remember the old adage, all security can be broken?

The problem is that with access to the basic input/output system, nastiness such as overriding the processor temp warning sensors is theoretically possible. Unlikely, yes, but it still may be possible depending on how it's set up.

There is a VERY GOOD reason to have the BIOS and operating system separate from each other.

You have a very good point there. Something as complex as a BIOS or an operating system is sure to have bugs and security flaws that can be exploited by hackers.

However that alone does not justify seperation of the BIOS and the operating system. Remember the BIOS does not need to be accessed to cause serious damage to a computer. It is so ridiculasly easy to ruin a computer that even scripting languages like VB script are enough.

Since it is far easier to delete files, mess up the Windows registry or do other nasty things without ever accessing BIOS features why would a potential virus writter or hacker go through the pain of system programming ?

If someone was determined enough to use the BIOS capability for malicious purposes they would not need Windows. They can directly write their code for that.

Pu-239 · Post by **Pu-239** » 2003-10-19 12:05pm

win32.CIH... BIOS better have physical jumper or dip switch against improper reflashing.
Control of computer using bios can lead to physical damage, or hard to recover damage like this, or CPU frying due to overheating, or other things. At least with damage with standard viruses you can reinstall and restore backups... kind of more expensive to replace damaged hardware...

By your logic, it is OK to get rid of get rid of ignition keys because car thieves can hotwire.

Anyway, I'm more worried about the DRM aspect.