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Posted: 2002-10-01 12:32am
by Enlightenment
Raoul Duke, Jr. wrote:Original Constitution-class bridge. Modular (the whole bridge can be swapped out) clean, simple and function-dictates-form, the way it should be done.
The Enterprise (all era) bridges are some of the most inefficient and error prone command centers in scifi. Their only redeeming value is to point out how a bridge should not be designed.
Why? Think about which way the commander is facing and where most of his information comes from and who carries out most of his orders. Recieving data from behind ones' back is hardly the most efficient and least error prone arrangement possible.
Posted: 2002-10-01 01:45am
by Robert Treder
Spanky, thanks for the heads up. Post edited.
Jabba the Hutt employs bounty hunters and body guards, not soldiers or sailors. There may still be a sociological disinclination for these aliens to enlist as regulars, or they may simply be relegated to same-species units which have not been depicted onscreen.
The point remains that onscreen, the Rebel Alliance exclusively employs humans in its starfighter corps and its ground troops. Furthermore, evidence of unit segregation is evident in the fact that Mon Cals are the only visible crew of the Mon Cal capships.
Regarding the Neimoidians: they serve only as very high-ranking officers. The same goes for the other members of the Confederacy, except for the Geonosians.
So, if you choose to not accept the "demographics" explanation of Dr. Saxton, the other two still apply.
Posted: 2002-10-01 11:07am
by Larz
Wow, true arguement in a topic I man, I'm so proud
Anyway, not to troll up my own topic, though the Empire scores high on the sleek look and efficincy, their score falls to the ground on modularity. Only droids and smaller biped species with opposable thumbs can work in on them which, though maybe not for the empire, can be a draw back.
Star trek interiors on the other hand are very luxorious. However, their consoles are very hazardous and they are meant only for biped species with opposable thumbs too (no droids, but of course there doesn't seem to be an alien species in star trek that ISN'T a biped, opposable thumb species that would want to be on a star fleet vessel.)
An add on for those Anime fans out there: What do you people think of the Bebop interior (from Cowboy Bebop) and maybe the Gundam universe interiors (Moble Suit Gundam, 0080 Gundam, 0083 Gundam, Gundam Wing, any or all)- If it so pleases the public to discuss such things.
Posted: 2002-10-01 11:13am
by Cpt_Frank
Larz wrote:Wow, true arguement in a topic I man, I'm so proud
Anyway, not to troll up my own topic, though the Empire scores high on the sleek look and efficincy, their score falls to the ground on modularity. Only droids and smaller biped species with opposable thumbs can work in on them which, though maybe not for the empire, can be a draw back.
Well humans are the dominant species in the SW galaxy so it's not all too bad for them.
Star trek interiors on the other hand are very luxorious. However, their consoles are very hazardous and they are meant only for biped species with opposable thumbs too (no droids, but of course there doesn't seem to be an alien species in star trek that ISN'T a biped, opposable thumb species that would want to be on a star fleet vessel.)
I absolutely hate the interiors of ST ships. The Klingon ones are ok, but all the others absolutely suck. Especially the 80s living room bridge in pastel colors (urgh). Just my personal bias.
Posted: 2002-10-01 11:14am
by Kuja
Robert Treder wrote:
The point remains that onscreen, the Rebel Alliance exclusively employs humans in its starfighter corps and its ground troops. Furthermore, evidence of unit segregation is evident in the fact that Mon Cals are the only visible crew of the Mon Cal capships.
Don't forget, the Moncals designed their own ships while starting their own fight against the Empire, then brought them over to the big Rebellion. The MC90-class cruisers are designed to accompany as large a variety as possible.
Gundam: OK
I like the way the Bebop looks.
Posted: 2002-10-01 04:46pm
by Raoul Duke, Jr.
Enlightenment wrote:Raoul Duke, Jr. wrote:Original Constitution-class bridge. Modular (the whole bridge can be swapped out) clean, simple and function-dictates-form, the way it should be done.
The Enterprise (all era) bridges are some of the most inefficient and error prone command centers in scifi. Their only redeeming value is to point out how a bridge should not be designed...<snip>
Which explains why the U.S. Navy liked it...
Posted: 2002-10-01 06:01pm
by IRG CommandoJoe
Raoul, ya beat me to it.
Jabba the Hutt employs bounty hunters and body guards, not soldiers or sailors. There may still be a sociological disinclination for these aliens to enlist as regulars, or they may simply be relegated to same-species units which have not been depicted onscreen.
Yes, but bounty hunters and body guards are essentially soldiers for hire. The question was whether or not aliens actually are as "militarily inclined" as humans are in the SW universe. Humans very well are bounty hunters and body guards as well in the SW universe. And also you forget about the Gamorreans. They are a very warlike species. Their tradition is to be warriors of all sorts.
The point remains that onscreen, the Rebel Alliance exclusively employs humans in its starfighter corps and its ground troops. Furthermore, evidence of unit segregation is evident in the fact that Mon Cals are the only visible crew of the Mon Cal capships.
That is NOT true. You only see human pilots in starfighters in space, but when you look at the bridge of the
Home One where the Rebels were briefed, you'll see many aliens. At least two Sullustians piloted starships in the Battle of Endor. One was Nien Numb, Lando's co-pilot, and the other was Ten Numb, which is always mistaken as Nien Numb in the briefing scene. And the reason why only Mon Cals were operating their controls was because they were not modified to be operated by humans yet. And even looking at the Jedi Knights, the overwhelming majority of them were aliens. They all fought like bloody hell. Aliens apparantly have the same tendencies to fight as humans do in Star Wars.
Regarding the Neimoidians: they serve only as very high-ranking officers. The same goes for the other members of the Confederacy, except for the Geonosians.
Except for the Geonosians? That still contradicts the fact that you are arguing aliens are not as "militarily inclined" as humans are. And besides, "militarily inclined" can mean anything from being a grunt to a commander. ALL of those aliens of the Separatists were "militarily inclined."
So, if you choose to not accept the "demographics" explanation of Dr. Saxton, the other two still apply.
Well, I just explained my reasons why I object to the "demographics" reason.
Posted: 2002-10-01 07:12pm
by Enlightenment
Raoul Duke, Jr. wrote:Which explains why the U.S. Navy liked it...
An urban legend to that effect has being going around since the days of TOS, but unless you can cough up some hard evidence to support your position, it's nothing more than an urban lengend.
For a more elaborate deconstruction of just what's wrong with Trek bridges, go here:
Google groups. Suffice to say that with these kind of problems the USN would have to be nuts to 'like' the designs.
Posted: 2002-10-01 07:46pm
by Raoul Duke, Jr.
So far, this is the best a Google search rendered (which doesn't say much)
Caps? CAPS!!
By Spockjaw () at 01:59:29 on August 04
URL: | User Info
Just to add my thoughts, I think the ballcaps are way cool! They remind me of when I was a crewman on the U.S.S. Enterprise (CVN-65),--and I try to think of the GOOD things about those days.
And to reiterate a reply to what someone said before who said they served no purpose any more because the sun won't be in the eyes of space travellers, we wore the caps when we were on watch wherever we were on watch, whether it was on the bridge or in CDC or Engineering (where the sun don't shine).
And also something else I was thinking. It looks to me that the helm on NX-01 is single person design. Not that things don't change back and forth in design, but I was hoping for the classic t-table style since in the Combat Direction Center on CVN-65, that's the way it's set up. The t-table has stations for the Tactical Action Officer as well as the Assistant TAO (I think), and they are positioned in front of two huge tactical display screens (w/ a bunch of little screens around them), and there is a single raised chair behind them for the Ops Officer or, during General Quarters, the Captain or Exec. This setup is ringed with radar stations, and everything together looks VERY familiar. But maybe this wouldn't be consistent w/ Star Trek, since I've heard that the military actually studied the TOS bridge design to come up with a feasible CDC setup, like on CVN-65.
Anyway, sorry to go off on a tangent like that. Got a little carried away.
I will find more as time and opportunity permit.[/quote]
Posted: 2002-10-01 07:48pm
by Doomriser
Larz wrote:Wow, true arguement in a topic I man, I'm so proud
Anyway, not to troll up my own topic, though the Empire scores high on the sleek look and efficincy, their score falls to the ground on modularity. Only droids and smaller biped species with opposable thumbs can work in on them which, though maybe not for the empire, can be a draw back.
Star trek interiors on the other hand are very luxorious. However, their consoles are very hazardous and they are meant only for biped species with opposable thumbs too (no droids, but of course there doesn't seem to be an alien species in star trek that ISN'T a biped, opposable thumb species that would want to be on a star fleet vessel.)
Do you have any idea what modularity means? Imperial bridges and other facilities are the most modular starship sections in SCI-FI. According to the SW Sourcebooks, the hangars, garbage compactors, security stations, etc... on the Death Star, for example, are the exact same components found on Imperial bases, Star Destroyers, etc... Imperial sections and structures are as modular and standardized as possible.
Posted: 2002-10-01 08:01pm
by Raoul Duke, Jr.
Do you have any idea what modularity means? Imperial bridges and other facilities are the most modular starship sections in SCI-FI. According to the SW Sourcebooks, the hangars, garbage compactors, security stations, etc... on the Death Star, for example, are the exact same components found on Imperial bases, Star Destroyers, etc...
That's
standardization, not modularity.
Posted: 2002-10-01 08:11pm
by Larz
Doomriser said...
Do you have any idea what modularity means? Imperial bridges and other facilities are the most modular starship sections in SCI-FI. According to the SW Sourcebooks, the hangars, garbage compactors, security stations, etc... on the Death Star, for example, are the exact same components found on Imperial bases, Star Destroyers, etc... Imperial sections and structures are as modular and standardized as possible.
I do know what it means..
Modular- usage around the board. Can a 10' lizard with spider legs and no hands use it. Not STANDARDIZATION. Thus the Imperial Fleet is standardized against modularity. Two words, two different meanings
Posted: 2002-10-02 05:12am
by Robert Treder
So even if we disregard the "demographics" portion of Saxton's argument, perhaps we should look at why one would value "modularity" in the first place. Why is it one of the three aspects initially offered for consideration?
As I see it, the more accessible an interface is to a wider variety of physiologies, the less efficient the interface is likely to be. Just because the bridge of an Imperial starship doesn't accomodate 10-ft high, eight-legged spider monsters, is it less effective at what it does?
I should think that intratextually, efficiency would be the number one factor for consideration. The emphasis on "modularity" here is misplaced.
Furthermore, it limits the competition among other sci-fi series, by hampering the 'scores' of those ships from series without diverse populations. For example, the Bebop has an awesome interior, but it cannot accomodate 10' lizards, considering only humans inhabit that society.
In fact, the whole 'modularity' thing doesn't really apply to Star Trek, either, seeing as how the political powers in those series are divided along racial lines, and even between those various races, there are precious few phyisical distinctions.
Posted: 2002-10-02 11:27am
by Larz
Modularity came about due to an arrant thought that maybe in a sci-fi universe where their may be aliens it would be a nice thing to have a ship to accomidate them. Anyway, this would be rather boring if it were just efficency, we all know that the Empires interiors would win hands down. No fun having a one answer topic, basically modular design throughs a new dynamic into the equation to think about. I know efficency is most important. If it helps one can think of the modular design as which vessel interior doesn't seem like a whore to fix or replace parts of (which happens to narrow the broadness of the topic severaly to that one answer I figured I was going to only get). Thats why modular was part of the criteria, for the soul fact that it doesn't leave things black or white.