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Yeah, it's always a good sign when you find yourself rooting for the bad guys (Ex. Agent Smith)

Solauren wrote:As to the end of the NJO;

The planet (Zoma Sekot, I know that is spelt wrong) that might be the Vong homeworld will take the Shamed ones and Vong that turn against the Vong hiearcy as it's new citizens and depart

Coruscant will be rebuilt by the GFFA

Shimira will be revealed to be under the control of his Shamed one.

Anakin Solo might be resurrected by Tahiri using Vong cloning and the Lambiant Crystal in his lightsaber (its Crystal Anakin).
I doubts that last part, but I can see it happening to avoid a massive fan fueled assault on Del Ray books

..................


That sucks. That REALLY sucks.

Kuja wrote:

Solauren wrote:As to the end of the NJO;

The planet (Zoma Sekot, I know that is spelt wrong) that might be the Vong homeworld will take the Shamed ones and Vong that turn against the Vong hiearcy as it's new citizens and depart

Coruscant will be rebuilt by the GFFA

Shimira will be revealed to be under the control of his Shamed one.

Anakin Solo might be resurrected by Tahiri using Vong cloning and the Lambiant Crystal in his lightsaber (its Crystal Anakin).
I doubts that last part, but I can see it happening to avoid a massive fan fueled assault on Del Ray books

..................


That sucks. That REALLY sucks.

Except for the 'crystal Anakin' part, that, or some variant/permutation seems most likely.

OR

Lady Lumiya will show up, Sith the Vong's asses, kill Mara, take Ben and tell Luke 'I promised to spit on your grave when you had lost all hope and all you held dear was taken from you. All you hold dear has been destroyed, and I have your son. Come and climb into your grave"

I hope he bites the dust. He HAS to die. There has been so much wrong in this series that he has to or it will just be all shitty.





I just got done with Final Prophecy

(spoilers)














Why in the FUCK didn't they let Tahiri hack him down on the escape ship, and THEN get tossed out?!?

Well, if anyone should kill him, it should be Mara. And if Shimrra is also going to die, please let it be Luke that goes one on one with the Supreme Overlord.

Anyone want to PM major spoilers and plot points when the finish with the novel? I have a thesis to write up, and I really don't have time to read the book, and I am even less possesed by the inclination.

Crown wrote:Anyone want to PM major spoilers and plot points when the finish with the novel? I have a thesis to write up, and I really don't have time to read the book, and I am even less possesed by the inclination.

Don't worry; I intend to. Probably won't be up until Thursday, maybe even Friday. Why? Because on 11/05, I'm seeing Matrix 3! Ahah!

Lady Lumiya will show up, Sith the Vong's asses, kill Mara, take Ben and tell Luke 'I promised to spit on your grave when you had lost all hope and all you held dear was taken from you. All you hold dear has been destroyed, and I have your son. Come and climb into your grave"

Why do people keep fucking bringing up Lumiya? She was an obscure character in the old comics and to bring her into the storyline in this way would be UTTER BULLSHIT.

While we are at it, perhaps a fleet of Nagai and Tofs could arrive to fight the vong too or something? Hmmmm? NO. Fuck that.

Why is Lumiya brought up?

Force Wielding Babe with Force powers and a LightWHIP

Besides that, she's also the most underated character

Solauren wrote:Why is Lumiya brought up?

Force Wielding Babe with Force powers and a LightWHIP

Besides that, she's also the most underated character

I beg to differ. Shes not underrated shes right where she belongs, doomed to obscurity in a series of comics that DOES NO EXIST WITHIN THE EU. For Lumiya to exist within the SW universe would be to completely fuck up the established timeline.

Besides, do you not understand that ht epoint of the NJO was to have a large story arc that didnt involve a Sith/Dark Jedi as the enemy? Shut up, back to your hole cretin.

Darth Fanboy wrote: Why do people keep fucking bringing up Lumiya? She was an obscure character in the old comics and to bring her into the storyline in this way would be UTTER BULLSHIT.

While we are at it, perhaps a fleet of Nagai and Tofs could arrive to fight the vong too or something? Hmmmm? NO. Fuck that.

Ok genius, maybe you could explain to me why, if Lumiya is not in the EU, she is listed on SW.com under the motherfucking EU section and has her own goddamn entry!

Further, if you read "behind the scenes" you learn that Lumiya is part of the Marvel SW comics line

http://www.starwars.com/databank/charac ... ya/?id=bts


Which is further established as part of the continuity here:

http://www.starwars.com/community/askjc ... 10817.html

Fans of the old monthly Marvel Star Wars comic will be heartened to know that LucasBooks does indeed consider them part of continuity. Decades of retrospect haven't been kind to all the elements of the comic series, but the characters and events still hold weight and are referenced in newer material whenever possible.

So in short, despite Fanboy's unresearched and unsubstantiated assertions to the contrary, Lumiya is indeed apart of the EU. This just goes to show how important research is before making such blatant statements like that.

Riddle me this then. If Lumiya and the Nagai/Tofs are actually part of the EU, how does this not contradict the early timeline then with Bakura?

Addendum: Novels over Comics in terms of Canon Status. The whole bit with Lumiya, the Nagai and Tofs is contradicted by the Truce at Bakura.

Darth Fanboy wrote:Riddle me this then. If Lumiya and the Nagai/Tofs are actually part of the EU, how does this not contradict the early timeline then with Bakura?

Nice way of completely ignoring my point: "Lets introduce a contradiction, and then I can pretend I'm proven right!" You've been taking lessons from the "I hate the ICS" crowd at Spacebattles, haven't you?

Read again, idiot. It says that Marvel is part of the continuity and further Lumiya has an EU entry to her name Ergo, she and the Marvel comics are part of the continuity, regardless of the potential mistakes this introduces. You cannot ignore Marvel without disregarding Cerasi's words, since by his own words Marvel is apart of official the same way the novels are.

Addendum: Novels over Comics in terms of Canon Status. The whole bit with Lumiya, the Nagai and Tofs is contradicted by the Truce at Bakura.

Provide proof that the comics are of higher status than the novels (You know what proof is, right?) Last I recall neither source was explicitly higher than another.

Connor's mad at me, im scared....Oooooooo.....

In fairness while Lumiya is part of the official Star Wars Universe, this does address the fundamental problems with her existence in tha tofficial timeline.

http://www.theforce.net/swtc/continuity.html

Lady Lumiya:
According to the Marvel comics, a one-time romatic interest of Luke Skywalker and apprentice to his father succeeded Lord Vader to become Dark Lady of the Sith. Although it is difficult to fit parts of the comic series into the modern STAR WARS continuity, this character has been reintroduced via a Topps card and in a SWRPG article of the STAR WARS Galaxy Magazine. The troublesome peripheral points of continuity surrounding her personal history are left unmentioned, however.

Now check this:

Unification.

Only reject existing material where absolutely necessary. Story elements must have genuine continuity problems to justify discarding them; material shan't be thrown away simply because many people hold it to be repugnant or embarassing. The STAR WARS Holiday Special is a prime example. If a source is uncomfortable or incongruent at face value, it is often possible to add background circumstances to alter its significance and give a more realistic perspective.

Sources should be treated with a view towards unifying everything to give a coherent and concise internal reality to the STAR WARS universe.Wherever phenomena can be explained in several different ways, the theory to be favoured is that which requires the simplest and fewest postulates, and which entails the least ad hoc changes in time. Wherever possible, real physical principles must be applied for the assessment of theories. Common phenomena in technological and natural features of STAR WARS should have common causes.

To Accept the Nagai/Tofs/Lumiya storyline, is to discount the Truce at Bakura and that battle with the Ssi Ruuk (since both take place right after the battle of Endor) which factors in later in the timeline, and the conflict from that novel is mentioned in other books.

Before you rail off against my Novels > Comics statement, Im still looking for acceptable proof.

Be Sweet.

Darth Fanboy wrote:Connor's mad at me, im scared....Oooooooo.....

Act like a fucking idiot, and thats what you get.

In fairness while Lumiya is part of the official Star Wars Universe, this does address the fundamental problems with her existence in tha tofficial timeline.

http://www.theforce.net/swtc/continuity.html

Wow, errors and conflicts in the EU. How unprecedented (Except for things like Hobbie's existance, Doman Beruss, the supposed scrapping of the Lusankya/Guardian by Mon Mothma etc....)

I like how you admit its "apart" of the universe while trying to make excuses about why your original point shoul still be considered valid even though I proved otherwise.

I repeat again that the issue of errors in the source material have no relevance to the original discussion, and you are simply engaging in a plethora of red herrings (Errors that exist will be dealt with on a case by case basis.)

Lady Lumiya:
According to the Marvel comics, a one-time romatic interest of Luke Skywalker and apprentice to his father succeeded Lord Vader to become Dark Lady of the Sith. Although it is difficult to fit parts of the comic series into the modern STAR WARS continuity, this character has been reintroduced via a Topps card and in a SWRPG article of the STAR WARS Galaxy Magazine. The troublesome peripheral points of continuity surrounding her personal history are left unmentioned, however.

Now check this:

Unification.

Only reject existing material where absolutely necessary. Story elements must have genuine continuity problems to justify discarding them; material shan't be thrown away simply because many people hold it to be repugnant or embarassing. The STAR WARS Holiday Special is a prime example. If a source is uncomfortable or incongruent at face value, it is often possible to add background circumstances to alter its significance and give a more realistic perspective.

Sources should be treated with a view towards unifying everything to give a coherent and concise internal reality to the STAR WARS universe.Wherever phenomena can be explained in several different ways, the theory to be favoured is that which requires the simplest and fewest postulates, and which entails the least ad hoc changes in time. Wherever possible, real physical principles must be applied for the assessment of theories. Common phenomena in technological and natural features of STAR WARS should have common causes.

And so? You're attempting to claim that because a contradiction exists we must toss out Lumiya (and several aspects of the comics) without proving that dismissing said source is in fact the only solution. I doubt you've even made an effort to reconcile them, so quote Saxton to me as if I don't know what I'm talking about (between the two of us, I know which of us is likely to know the proper methodology better.) And even if we admit there are contradictions (which there might be), we address them on an individual basis, which means that only parts may get tossed out (if at all )

On top of that, if we listen to you, then we'd basically ignore what Cerasi said because LFL *obviousy* is too stupid to deal with its own material. Yet these same people determine the fucking policy we employ. Thus, if they say it is part of the continuity it is PART OF THE CONTINUITY, at least in some fashion or another (there is always room for interpretation.)
Thus your opinions hold about as much weight as your usual idiot troll's do.

And this all STILL doesn't address the point that you're trying to dismiss Lumiya's status as an EU character by claiming the Marvel stuff doesn't fit in with continuity and must therefore be ignored, despite all the factual evidence proving the exact opposite.

To Accept the Nagai/Tofs/Lumiya storyline, is to discount the Truce at Bakura and that battle with the Ssi Ruuk (since both take place right after the battle of Endor) which factors in later in the timeline, and the conflict from that novel is mentioned in other books.

You have yet to provide evidence why we MUST toss it out, since as you just pointed out, dismissal is the LAST RESORT and is done on a case by case basis, not categorically. Again, you demonstrate all the (lack of) logic of the same idiots who want to pretend the AOTC ICS is inconsistent with the canon/official portrayal of the SW universe.

And even if there are parts of the Marvel stuff that must be tossed out (debatable, given your utter lack of proof on the issue), this still bears nothing whatsoever on Lumiya and the fact you originally insisted she was not an EU character and then tried to point ot possible contradictions as an excuse to not treat her as one.

Before you rail off against my Novels > Comics statement, Im still looking for acceptable proof.

Be Sweet.

Oh goody, I can't wait. I'll bet its going to be as thorough and accurate as the rest of your research. Not that I expect you to find any since I am not aware of any such distinctions aside from the well knonw "primary/secondary canon and official" categories.

Should I have written my last post in crayon?

I am forced to Acknowledge Lumya, but i refuse to accept anything involving Post-Endor Situations as they conflict with Truce to Bakura.

Wow, errors and conflicts in the EU. How unprecedented (Except for things like Hobbie's existance, Doman Beruss, the supposed scrapping of the Lusankya/Guardian by Mon Mothma etc....)

I like how you admit its "apart" of the universe while trying to make excuses about why your original point shoul still be considered valid even though I proved otherwise.

I repeat again that the issue of errors in the source material have no relevance to the original discussion, and you are simply engaging in a plethora of red herrings (Errors that exist will be dealt with on a case by case basis.)

Hence why I quoted Saxton, timeline cohesion must exist. How can I reconicle THat storyline with the Truce at Bakura if both are supposed to take place Immediately After RoTJ? Its impossible.

On top of that, if we listen to you, then we'd basically ignore what Cerasi said because LFL *obviousy* is too stupid to deal with its own material. Yet these same people determine the fucking policy we employ. Thus, if they say it is part of the continuity it is PART OF THE CONTINUITY, at least in some fashion or another (there is always room for interpretation.)
Thus your opinions hold about as much weight as your usual idiot troll's do.

Granted when I say Novels > Comics Im going on from what ive interpreted here on the board and in other places. I am curious as to whether or not your Novels = Comics interpretation is correct and/or more widely held.

You have yet to provide evidence why we MUST toss it out, since as you just pointed out, dismissal is the LAST RESORT and is done on a case by case basis, not categorically. Again, you demonstrate all the (lack of) logic of the same idiots who want to pretend the AOTC ICS is inconsistent with the canon/official portrayal of the SW universe.

Hey, I like the AoTC ICS, purdy pictures among other things...

If you can reconcile two different events that take place during the same time, then please tell me. Once again if the post RoTJ Lumiya Storyline CAN be reconciled with Truce at Bakura I havent thought of it Perhaps youd care to enlighten me with what is obvioous a boundless supply of intelligence?

And even if there are parts of the Marvel stuff that must be tossed out (debatable, given your utter lack of proof on the issue), this still bears nothing whatsoever on Lumiya and the fact you originally insisted she was not an EU character and then tried to point ot possible contradictions as an excuse to not treat her as one.

I'll admit that Lumiya is in fact an official Character because I had no idea she was given a SWG entry or a topps card. However I still believe that her storylines in the Marvel Comics for the most part are contradictions that cannot be reconicled.

I have no problems with being wrong, Riddle me this Batman, If there are ways some of these things can be reconciled feel free to point out how they can be. Unlike these trolls and ICS haters you mention id be willing to hear an explanation if you indeed have one.

Darth Fanboy wrote: I have no problems with being wrong, Riddle me this Batman, If there are ways some of these things can be reconciled feel free to point out how they can be. Unlike these trolls and ICS haters you mention id be willing to hear an explanation if you indeed have one.

Simple Explaination, supported by the Essential Chronology and the Truce at Bakura source book

Order of Events:
Return of the Jedi
Truce at Bakura
The Rebellion starts calling itself the Alliance of Free Planets after Bakura (Truce Sourcebook)
first encounter with Lumiya, the Rebels are calling themselves the Alliance of Free Planets in this one
another encounter with Lumiya
The Nagaki/Tof story arc
Lumiya gets some ships from Yssane and disappears
the novels after Truce at Bakura happen

no fuss, no muss

The Entire Lumiya arc takes place over a very short time, like the 2 - 3 months following Bakura, possible during the Ssi-Ruvvi counter offensive (during it would explain why the Nagaki and Tof did so well against the Alliance for a short period)

The Entire Lumiya arc takes place over a very short time, like the 2 - 3 months following Bakura, possible during the Ssi-Ruvvi counter offensive (during it would explain why the Nagaki and Tof did so well against the Alliance for a short period)

More Details please.

Addendum: Not sure what you mean by Ssi Ruuvi counteroffensive, didn't they leave after Bakura? Then between Bakura and Force Heretic II they only real dealings was a small Alliance Task Force find the Ssi Ruuk completely beaten? (either by the Chiss or whomever) Even with that storyline I am not seeing how the marvel comics can fit into the timeline established by the novels since it seems for the most part that the novelists have forsaken those Marvel comics as parts of the timeline.

Shira Brie is also in the NEGTC.

Darth Fanboy wrote:

The Entire Lumiya arc takes place over a very short time, like the 2 - 3 months following Bakura, possible during the Ssi-Ruvvi counter offensive (during it would explain why the Nagaki and Tof did so well against the Alliance for a short period)

More Details please.

Addendum: Not sure what you mean by Ssi Ruuvi counteroffensive, didn't they leave after Bakura? Then between Bakura and Force Heretic II they only real dealings was a small Alliance Task Force find the Ssi Ruuk completely beaten? (either by the Chiss or whomever) Even with that storyline I am not seeing how the marvel comics can fit into the timeline established by the novels since it seems for the most part that the novelists have forsaken those Marvel comics as parts of the timeline.

The Alliance launched a counter offensive, but it only consisted of a few Nebulon-B frigates; it shouldn't have weakened the Alliance.

Considering that Darth Fanwhore has not provided a proper rebuttal to the original poitn and refuses to concede even though its evident he has no position to speak of, and that he has asked me in PM (rather than publicly, interestingly enough) if I would let the discussion go (ironically without him having to concede anything... go figure), and that his responses have amounted to little more than mindless posturing and evasion, I believe its safe to consider the debate concluded and him proven quite wrong (even if he has yet to realize it.) - particularily with what Soluaren posted.

Regarding Bakura and the Ssi-Ruuk, and the Marvel invasions, lets consider a few things:

1.) At this point in time, the months after the battle of Endor, the Rebel Alliance is not in possession of what we would call a vast fleet. Just prior to Endor, they'd lost the Baji shipyards (Supposedly a severe loss for them) and never had a strong shipbuilding program even before then. I'd be surprised if they had a large fleet to toss around (offhand I'd guess maybe only thousands of ships, maybe even only hundreds.) Building up for a conventional war like they waged on several years later takes time and money. So even relatively minor threats like the Ssi-Ruuk might still be problems.

This doesn't even address the added poitns of earlier on needing to repair or replace those ships they'd damaged or lost even at Endor (IIRC it was about 20%.)



2.) The Empire is still present, if somewhat diminished and fragmented. There are also the nascent warlords as well. They would be a concern for the Alliance as would the Ssi-Ruuk or an yone else. In fact, the Empire would probably be a bigger threat than any other alien menace (Marvel or novel.)

Darth Fanboy wrote:

The Entire Lumiya arc takes place over a very short time, like the 2 - 3 months following Bakura, possible during the Ssi-Ruvvi counter offensive (during it would explain why the Nagaki and Tof did so well against the Alliance for a short period)

More Details please.

Addendum: Not sure what you mean by Ssi Ruuvi counteroffensive, didn't they leave after Bakura? Then between Bakura and Force Heretic II they only real dealings was a small Alliance Task Force find the Ssi Ruuk completely beaten? (either by the Chiss or whomever) Even with that storyline I am not seeing how the marvel comics can fit into the timeline established by the novels since it seems for the most part that the novelists have forsaken those Marvel comics as parts of the timeline.

The best recommendation I can make on clearing things up is to refer to Timetales on theforce.net. The online version is down, so you'll have to download the zip (if you want, I'll cut and paste the relevant sections for you either here or in a PM)

However, the quickest fix I can give is simple dating of events

Truce of Bakura: Immediately after Return of the Jedi
X-wing: Rogue Squadron: 2 and a half years after Retun of the Jedi

That's ALOT of room to insert the comics into

Timetales really does a good job with it all. (It even gives the references for where they get the information from, etc)

The Ssi-ruvvi counter offensive is probably an over-statement, they go check out the Ssi-ruvvi empire, which takes time, and find it beaten senseless.

Personally, I think that the whole Dark Jedi bit is over. I personally hope that she doesn't come back. Not even Star Wars is confined to its own continuity - take the Death Star plans in AoTC for instance.

Solauren wrote:However, the quickest fix I can give is simple dating of events

Truce of Bakura: Immediately after Return of the Jedi
X-wing: Rogue Squadron: 2 and a half years after Retun of the Jedi

That's ALOT of room to insert the comics into

Timetales really does a good job with it all. (It even gives the references for where they get the information from, etc)

The Ssi-ruvvi counter offensive is probably an over-statement, they go check out the Ssi-ruvvi empire, which takes time, and find it beaten senseless.

Yeah, beaten by what many assume to be the Chiss, though theres no evidence I can remember reading about. Im starting to be more open minded about the time frame, but I dont see the storyline as being able to coexist with the order of events set up by the EU novels and Dark Horse comics.

However you have given me an excuse to reread any and all of the old Marvel comics I can find, which isn't entirely a bad thing. i embark on a noble quest for evidence the likes of which...okay thats overstating it. I'll find my evidence though (shakes fist all unruly like). Regardless, Lumiya is still a shitty character.


Oh and Connor, you sweet loveable human you, quit calling names and fess u youre the president of my fanclub, I'll send you an email as regards to the nextmeeting. Ciao babe, lets do lunch.

I just bought and finished TUF. Okay, you wanted spoilers, here are spoilers as to the fate of nom anor, here they are!

*** spoilers ***

* At the start, Nom Anor is now prefect of Yuzzan'tar.

* Nom Anor returns as the Prophet to some shamed ones (he has heard that they are going to spoil the sacrifice ceremony that Shimrra has planned prior to the invasion of Mon Calimari) and tries to placate them into accepting their position. His presence, however, excites them and Kunra intends to lead them towards a bright future regardless of Nom Anor.

* The sacrifice takes place but is ambushed by Shamed heretics - they risk their lives to save the prisoners. In the chaos, Nom Anor notices a masqued figure hiding in the background - Onimi!

* Shmirra blames the shamed ones for the 'abomination' of Zonama Sekot and decrees that all heretics are to be destroyed - at the command of Nom Anor!

* The heretics, knowing their hour is at hand, are resisting destruction. In the chaos, Nom Anor sees once and for all that Shrimma has lost it and will damm them all. He once again poses as the Prophet and encourages the shamed ones to revolt.

* The shamed ones battle is reinforced by Mara, Tahiri, Kenth and alliance commandos - posing a problem for Nom Anor! Tahiri notices him, grabs his cloak with the force and calls Mara. Nom Anor slashes the cloak and runs.

* Mara gives chase and throws punch after punch toward the YV Executor that has been responsible for so much death. she spares hm life when he reveals shimrra's plan to use Alpha-Red against ZS (a YV ship infected with the stuff will crash into ZS and since it has a similar makeup, will die if they suceed)

* At the World Brain, Nom Anor strangles High Prefect Drathul who has been pissing him off throughout the book.

* On Shimrra's escape ship, The heroes must get out, and Nom Anor shepherds them into an escape pod - Jacen realises he is leading them to waste disposal... Han pulls a blaster on him and Nom Anor spits poison at Han... Jacen intercepts, but Nom Anor is to use knockout gas from a false finger... shame that Leia cuts off his hand! Nom Anor is left
on the ship - "I will die here with Onimi, for we have been two of a kind from the start."[quote]

***

Well that's pretty much what happens to our favorite Executor. Thanks NJO - it's been a great run.