StarDestroyer.Net BBS

What evidence do you have that A. these weapons produce a lot of recoil and B. that standard battledroids could not handle said recoil?

Maybe the droid is really really steady, but the droid firing the launcher in Episode 2 doesn't move at all, when firing.

What evidence do you have that A. these weapons produce a lot of recoil and B. that standard battledroids could not handle said recoil?

The standard Battle 'Droid goes to pieces when hit with a Force push, as evidenced on the Trade Federation Battleship above Naboo in TPM.

When firing the launcher in Episode 2 of the doesn't move - although he made it up the stairs remarkably quickly for 'droids we know are generally clumsy.

Incidentially, the regular 'droids in Episode 2 of the mini-series do not suffer recoil when firing blasters; the sniper rifles in Episode 3 evidently produce a great deal however.

Axis Kast wrote:Of course it does.

Battle 'Droids as we saw them were quite fragile; one must therefore question whether a reinforced model would have been built to better handle the kickback and recoil of a projectile launcher.

According to what? Because they fall apart when shut down?

Axis Kast wrote: The standard Battle 'Droid goes to pieces when hit with a Force push, as evidenced on the Trade Federation Battleship above Naboo in TPM.

Which is relevant to the recoil... how exactly?

You do know what a force push involves, don't you? It's not just as if I were to walk up to one and physically give it a push. Their internal workings are being wrecked (also used by Luke in Dark Empire).

According to what? Because they fall apart when shut down?

Because of how easily they fall apart, period.

Which is relevant to the recoil... how exactly?

Because strong recoil suggests a strong frame.

You do know what a force push involves, don't you? It's not just as if I were to walk up to one and physically give it a push. Their internal workings are being wrecked (also used by Luke in Dark Empire).

We've seen it work on humans before; they get back up. Battle 'Droids are much more fragile.

Axis Kast wrote: Because of how easily they fall apart, period.

Unsubstantiated generalization. What if the battle droids are modular and simply "Fall apart" because the connecting mechnisms switch off when the battle droids are?

Because strong recoil suggests a strong frame.

How the hell is a "Force push" indicative of recoil, dumbass? If there was any recoil, it would be felt by the Jedi initiating the push, not the battle droid. As to how the droid is pushed, that doesn't tell us much about their abilities to handle recoil period.

We've seen it work on humans before; they get back up. Battle 'Droids are much more fragile.

ROFL. a soft, squishy organic is more durable than a multi-ton, metal droid. That's fucking hilarious

Did Kast bother to consider that there might be more than one "type" of Force push?

Unsubstantiated generalization. What if the battle droids are modular and simply "Fall apart" because the connecting mechnisms switch off when the battle droids are?

This isn't useful support for your argument; the 'droids are susceptible to easy destruction in the first place.

How the hell is a "Force push" indicative of recoil, dumbass? If there was any recoil, it would be felt by the Jedi initiating the push, not the battle droid. As to how the droid is pushed, that doesn't tell us much about their abilities to handle recoil period.

Strong recoil from a rocket launcher or sniper rifle.

ROFL. a soft, squishy organic is more durable than a multi-ton, metal droid. That's fucking hilarious.

You're dodging the core issue here: why do humans get up after being force pushed while the battle 'droids fall to pieces?

They're called "levels", Kast...

Do you huff cleaning products or something?

Kast, why is it incomprehensible to you that Jedi might have control over how strong of a push they give somebody?

Yet we've never seen a humanoid killed by a force push alone; the Battle 'Droids on the Control Ship suffered by the half-dozen.

Axis Kast wrote:Yet we've never seen a humanoid killed by a force push alone; the Battle 'Droids on the Control Ship suffered by the half-dozen.

Are you even reading what we're posting, or have you devolved into some kind of chat bot-mode?

You're insisting that a Force push can have various degrees of strength - but we've never seen any that kill humanoids.

Axis Kast wrote: This isn't useful support for your argument; the 'droids are susceptible to easy destruction in the first place.

So you're saying they are "fragile" because they are damaged/destroyed by Star Wars weaponry?

Strong recoil from a rocket launcher or sniper rifle.

You have yet to prove a connection between a Force push and weapons recoil, dumbass.

You're dodging the core issue here: why do humans get up after being force pushed while the battle 'droids fall to pieces?

I don't suppose it might have occured to you that maybe there are cases they don't *WANT* to kill organic beings with a Force push? There is certainly no reason they can't do so, but they are generally relucatant about killing unless neccessary, and when they do they prefer using lightsabers over the Force. This does not apply to droids, dipshit.

To further illustrate oyur stupidity, lets point out that tossing a battle droid (much less several) requires far greater applications of force than it does to push a human. Were they intent on killing a human, and had they applied the same degree of force (a requirement of your ludicrous theory), the human would endure a greater rate of acceleration. (F=M/A)

On top of that, you ignore the fact that the Force pushes against battle droids typically mean they do not get up, suggesting damage is far more extensive than a simple push (and the ability to affect internal components of droids by Force ability is well documented in EU)

Clearly, you've not only thought your crap theories through, but you refuse to listen when people point out you are wrong. No wonder your'e so poorly regarded here.

Axis Kast wrote:You're insisting that a Force push can have various degrees of strength - but we've never seen any that kill humanoids.

Force pushes DO have varying degrees of strength, dumbass. If a Obi-Wan applied the same level of force he used to shove those large, metallic battle droids (which have to be multi-ton, especially by SW-grade materials), an ordinary human would be flung back many times greater a distance (several meters for the battle droid turn out to maybe 7-10 times that distance for a human, at least.)

And if we applied something equal to lifting or manipulating a starfighter (IE Yoda in TESB, Jedi apprentices in DArksaber, etc.), the effects would be even nastier.

I will concede the argument regarding droid integrity. Your argument regarding droid construction does make sense, and I will concede that it does indeed take a great deal of force to move such objects. I remain suspicious however that we have never seen a true death by force “push” – even during the war with the Yhuuzan Vong.

There are two other facets to my argument that you have ignored until now: programming and speed. If there are ‘droids programmed specifically as infantry and then specifically as security troops, why not as heavy weapons specialists? After all, a heavy weapon requires far more fire discipline than a blaster rifle, and more dedicated computer power to calculate trajectories (i.e. which is more difficult to use, a rifle or a rocket launcher?).

You’ve also yet to explain why the droids with the heavy weapons were quite so fast; we have never seen any others move quite as quickly.

Axis Kast wrote:I will concede the argument regarding droid integrity. Your argument regarding droid construction does make sense, and I will concede that it does indeed take a great deal of force to move such objects. I remain suspicious however that we have never seen a true death by force “push” – even during the war with the Yhuuzan Vong.

If we drag the EU into it we've seen very few direct Force attacks against living beings. Generally there is a disinclination to do so, even though they CAN should neccessity dictate.

There are two other facets to my argument that you have ignored until now: programming and speed. If there are ‘droids programmed specifically as infantry and then specifically as security troops, why not as heavy weapons specialists?

Programming has nothign to do with "creating a whole new type of droid." Its the same fucking droid, just designed to do a different task (Are you a completely new person just because you're trained into a new task??)

Further, I point out the following: http://www.starwars.com/databank/droid/battledroid/

Starwars.com wrote: Droids with specialized functions have distinct colored markings on their armor. Blue denotes pilot droids. Red denotes security droids. Yellow denotes command droids, which function with increased autonomy compared to the standard infantry.

Neither the droids using those heavy scoped rifles OR the missile launchers had any specialized markings, suggesting they WERE STANDARD DROIDS.

After all, a heavy weapon requires far more fire discipline than a blaster rifle, and more dedicated computer power to calculate trajectories (i.e. which is more difficult to use, a rifle or a rocket launcher?).

Subjective impression on your part. Please provide evidence this is true.

Incidentally, the EGW&T and the website both suggest rocket/missile launchers are more accurate due to sophisticated targeting systems and the usage of seeking warheads (Rather than a dumb-fired blaster bolt. The use of a scope would also greatly improve accuracy over the conventional blaster model. Both in fact fly in the fase of your "proposed" modifications.

You’ve also yet to explain why the droids with the heavy weapons were quite so fast; we have never seen any others move quite as quickly.

Maybe because we've never seen them move up stairs or neccesarily at their full rate of speed even (although I believe they were running in AOTC across the big battlefield towards the Clone Army, and were moving pretty fast) The droids we have seen have typically been used in massive, rigidly controlled formations (where manuverability is limited) against a numerically inferior opponent (where mobility doesn't matter much), and were never shown "running" at all (Except perhaps on the Geonosis battlefield). Aside from that, we know that the battle droids in the AOTC era were imrpoved upon from the TPM era - such might very well be true here.

(BTW, "chassis colour" is a rather laughable excuse for suggesting a separate class for a visually-identical droid. The difference in coloration more than likely suggests differences in materials usage - droids produced on different worlds, perhaps. We see droid production in AOTC, which suggests the coloration is an innate quality of the metal used, not some sort of external "spray on" paint.

As to "blaster specialization", I challenge you to find some valid source (the link you provided appears to be stats for a roleplaying game whose sources are not cited - therefore we dont know if they made it up or not. The stats suggest it is not the new D20 RPG, so it seems unlikely they are official.) Moreover there is nothing about the droid design that suggests the blaster design differs significantly enough to hamper a human wielder - something that is in fact proven untrue in the movies (as well as the fact that the battle droids basically hold them in hands like a human.)

And lastly, incidentally, I found this as well on the same entry while browsing SW.com:

http://www.starwars.com/databank/droid/ ... oid/?id=eu

Starwars.com wrote: If deactivated, or damaged to considerable degree, a battle droid deactivates the electromagnets holding its joints together. Though this makes the droid somewhat fragile, it does prevent the spread of damage and allows the droids to be easily salvaged for future repair and reuse."

Thus proving my aforementioned point.

If we drag the EU into it we've seen very few direct Force attacks against living beings. Generally there is a disinclination to do so, even though they CAN should necessity dictate.

Which is a departure from common sense. If Jedi were willing to kill Yhuuzan-Vong with lightsabers or blasters, why not with the Force, as well?

Programming has nothign to do with "creating a whole new type of droid." Its the same fucking droid, just designed to do a different task (Are you a completely new person just because you're trained into a new task??)

Then explain the differences between basic Battle and Security ‘droids. This is precisely where your “training” argument falls apart: seemingly related tasks require entirely different ‘droid brains.

Neither the droids using those heavy scoped rifles OR the missile launchers had any specialized markings, suggesting they WERE STANDARD DROIDS.

Point – although I again raise the issue of autonomy.

Subjective impression on your part. Please provide evidence this is true.

Incidentally, the EGW&T and the website both suggest rocket/missile launchers are more accurate due to sophisticated targeting systems and the usage of seeking warheads (Rather than a dumb-fired blaster bolt. The use of a scope would also greatly improve accuracy over the conventional blaster model. Both in fact fly in the fase of your "proposed" modifications.

Blasters don’t follow winding trajectories. The kickback from a blaster is less likely to derange the accuracy of the next shot as opposed to kickback from a projectile launcher. Even today, we have shoulder-fired, heat-seeking warheads. It doesn’t mean that they are “fire and forget”. The ‘droid firing the missile took several moments to line up its shot.

Maybe because we've never seen them move up stairs or neccesarily at their full rate of speed even (although I believe they were running in AOTC across the big battlefield towards the Clone Army, and were moving pretty fast) The droids we have seen have typically been used in massive, rigidly controlled formations (where manuverability is limited) against a numerically inferior opponent (where mobility doesn't matter much), and were never shown "running" at all (Except perhaps on the Geonosis battlefield). Aside from that, we know that the battle droids in the AOTC era were imrpoved upon from the TPM era - such might very well be true here.

Point – although the ability to climb very slim stairs is evidence of extreme dexterity as compared to most other ‘droids.

Incidentally, regarding construction, R2-D2 appears to have pulled C-3PO’s head from the body of another ‘droid with little difficulty …

As to "blaster specialization", I challenge you to find some valid source (the link you provided appears to be stats for a roleplaying game whose sources are not cited - therefore we dont know if they made it up or not. The stats suggest it is not the new D20 RPG, so it seems unlikely they are official.) Moreover there is nothing about the droid design that suggests the blaster design differs significantly enough to hamper a human wielder - something that is in fact proven untrue in the movies (as well as the fact that the battle droids basically hold them in hands like a human.

It was on the SW.com site for quite a while before being changed.

Also – human ability to fire the blaster is retarded by its significant weight as compared to other blasters.

I also point out that Battle ‘Droids and humans do not share the same physiology.

Thus proving my aforementioned point.

Actually, this only brings into question whether they’re more easily destroyed if subjected to malfunction.

Axis Kast wrote: Which is a departure from common sense. If Jedi were willing to kill Yhuuzan-Vong with lightsabers or blasters, why not with the Force, as well?

Jedi have canonically and officially demonstrated numerous times that they only use the Force when absolutely neccessary. Apparently excessive use is some sort of ethical restriction on their part, not an inability to do so.

Then explain the differences between basic Battle and Security ‘droids. This is precisely where your “training” argument falls apart: seemingly related tasks require entirely different ‘droid brains.

Prove it, asshole. You seem to make alot of claims without providing much evidence to back it up:

TPM Visual dictionary, page 21 wrote: Battle droids are structurally identical irrespective of job function. To increase efficiency, however, droids are pre-programmed with specialized subroutines. Infantry and Command Officer droids are fitted with power backpacks to boost operational range and extend recharge intervals.

Doesn't sound like they require "an entirely different droid brain" to me.

Further, were your idiotic allegations true, explain battle droids operating the STAPs? According to the TPM VD, pilot droids are blue-marked, yet I don't recall seeing such a droid operate them.

Point – although I again raise the issue of autonomy.

Autonomy how? Battle droids rarely have autonomy, thats the whole fucking point (don't you recall the droid control ships from TPM? They still had em in AOTC even!)

Blasters don’t follow winding trajectories. The kickback from a blaster is less likely to derange the accuracy of the next shot as opposed to kickback from a projectile launcher. Even today, we have shoulder-fired, heat-seeking warheads. It doesn’t mean that they are “fire and forget”. The ‘droid firing the missile took several moments to line up its shot.

Those missiles were self-guided dumbass - did you see how they manuvered to hit the gunship?? It doesn't matter if recoil throws off the range of the missile, it can self-compensate. And the rockets could be self-guided (You remember that bit about a "sophisticated targeting system" I mentioned and you ignored, right?) - you think its impossible in a universe where droids and computers are commonplace even on a backwater desert world?

Standard battle droid blasters do NOT have the same computer-assisted targeting the scoped heavy rifles and the rocket launchers have. Do I have to explain even these simple facts to you?

Lastly, did it escape your notice that when the battle droid fired the missile, there was in fact a backblast from the rear of the launcher (as if like, say, the exhaust of the missile was escaping?) This would in fact help reduce the recoil.

Point – although the ability to climb very slim stairs is evidence of extreme dexterity as compared to most other ‘droids.

You have no point of comparison to measure agility, since we haven't seen them really running full-tilt. I just fucking explained this.

Incidentally, regarding construction, R2-D2 appears to have pulled C-3PO’s head from the body of another ‘droid with little difficulty …

Threepio was blasted apart in TESB and put together without little problem. He, like the battle droids, seem to be of modular construction.

It was on the SW.com site for quite a while before being changed.

Also – human ability to fire the blaster is retarded by its significant weight as compared to other blasters.

Prove that droid blasters weigh significantly more than others. As I recall, Padme was able to wield one in one-hand even.

I also point out that Battle ‘Droids and humans do not share the same physiology.

Droids don't have a physiology, moron. They're fucking robots.
They aren't alive. They *DO* share a generally humanoid form, flexible manipulatory appendages (IE Hands), and such.

Actually, this only brings into question whether they’re more easily destroyed if subjected to malfunction.

Did you even read the quote?? The "joining" mechanism only fails when they suffer extreme damage (IE from blaster fire, which is far more destructive than modern weapons)

This is why I try to avoid talking to him...

Jedi have canonically and officially demonstrated numerous times that they only use the Force when absolutely neccessary. Apparently excessive use is some sort of ethical restriction on their part, not an inability to do so.

Jedi control their lightsabers to some extent by letting the Force flow through them, and Luke Skywalker is a good example. Yet we’ve seen him use what you refer to as minor or mild Force pushes even during major lightsaber battles where the Force is in play regardless.

Doesn't sound like they require "an entirely different droid brain" to me.

The ‘droid brain is actually irrelevant to this argument so long as you concede that Security ‘droids are a different type of automaton as compared to standard Battle ‘Droids.

Regardless of identical structure “irrespective of job function,” they clearly employ different sub-routines to the point where one is considered to be a different type of ‘droid than the other. Security and infantry duty are similar; we’ve in fact seen infantry act in the role of guards, as you have already proven. But why is this? As I’ve suggested, it may be because red-pauldroned Security ‘droids have different levels of fire discipline in order to conserve damage to starship bulkheads. This suggests that ‘droids with heavy weapons might have similarly divergent sub-routines from standard infantry ‘droids.

Further, were your idiotic allegations true, explain battle droids operating the STAPs? According to the TPM VD, pilot droids are blue-marked, yet I don't recall seeing such a droid operate them.

Yes, standard Battle ‘Droids can operate STAPS – but cannot, as we have seen, perform security duties to the desired specification without different sub-routines.

Autonomy how? Battle droids rarely have autonomy, thats the whole fucking point (don't you recall the droid control ships from TPM? They still had em in AOTC even!)

Individual ‘droids can be observed without a clear commander; this is most evident with the missile launching sequence.

Those missiles were self-guided dumbass - did you see how they manuvered to hit the gunship?? It doesn't matter if recoil throws off the range of the missile, it can self-compensate. And the rockets could be self-guided (You remember that bit about a "sophisticated targeting system" I mentioned and you ignored, right?) - you think its impossible in a universe where droids and computers are commonplace even on a backwater desert world?

Standard battle droid blasters do NOT have the same computer-assisted targeting the scoped heavy rifles and the rocket launchers have. Do I have to explain even these simple facts to you?

Lastly, did it escape your notice that when the battle droid fired the missile, there was in fact a backblast from the rear of the launcher (as if like, say, the exhaust of the missile was escaping?) This would in fact help reduce the recoil.

The U.S. Army also employs self-guided surface-to-air missiles. Would you describe them as being easier to handle than a rifle?

Firing the sniper rifles caused the ‘droids to shudder.

You have no point of comparison to measure agility, since we haven't seen them really running full-tilt. I just fucking explained this.

Yet we’ve seen them walking quite slowly. I can also observe C-3PO at a walk, and from that much determine that he is probably a poor sprinter.

Prove that droid blasters weigh significantly more than others. As I recall, Padme was able to wield one in one-hand even.

They are of larger bulk. Being able to handle them one-handed is irrespective to their being more difficult for humans to fire.

Droids don't have a physiology, moron. They're fucking robots.
They aren't alive. They *DO* share a generally humanoid form, flexible manipulatory appendages (IE Hands), and such.

But they don’t have the SAME hands.

Did you even read the quote?? The "joining" mechanism only fails when they suffer extreme damage (IE from blaster fire, which is far more destructive than modern weapons)

But not if the mechanism itself suffers damage? Prove it.

The U.S. Army also employs self-guided surface-to-air missiles. Would you describe them as being easier to handle than a rifle?

They're larger, and require longer to acquire a firing solution (unlike the droid's launcher)- but they're not hard to handle, and you don't have to take things like regulating your breathing and recoil into account- MANPADS don't have appreciable recoil.

Igla

(streaming only)

Notice the infantryman firing it standing- the only reaction he has after firing it is the launcher drooping because the missile has left the tube.

(This is part of the reason why anti-tank missile launchers are called 'recoilless')

And yet the 'droid tracked the ARC assault ship.

And he took his time before firing.