Bulletproof?

[Master of Ossus]

My apologies, the Avenger 30mm does not travel at 1 mile per second, it travels at 6.6 miles per second, or 24007 MPH.

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/equip/gau-8.htm

Wow. Sorry about that. I thought it travelled much more slowly.

Wait a minute, your own fucking website disproves your statement. Its "Specifications" sheet at the bottom of the page indicates a muzzle velocity of just 1 km/second. Where the hell are you getting this 6.6 mps figure? A km is less than a mile, moron. It would probably help your cause during the debate if you just looked at the resources that you provided. Incidentally, I have no idea why you assume that an AT-ST is designed to be an MBT/APC. It carries no troops (thus ruling out the APC designation), and its main weapons seem in terms of firepower to be about as great as grenade launchers. For it to be an MBT, it would need to have the firepower of an AT-AT, or thereabouts.

[Alyeska]

Hold on, I think I see the error in my calc...

[Isolder74]

The main problem with stopping a KE attack with solid piece of armour is that it can't give disapating the energy. to spot a bullet the KE would simply be transfered to the breastplate. If the attack is hard enough it can still kill the man inside the armour. In the case of Stormtrooper Armour a soft "flack" vest would be worthless considering the weapons used(blasters). Also an energy weapon would have slightly less efficiency hitting a light colored object then when hitting a dark one which explains why ST Armour is white.

[Alyeska]

I left out a Zero in the division part.

1 KPS ~ 2400 MPH

1067*60*60=3841200 meters ph
3841200/1000=3841 kph
3841/1.6=2400 mph

I divided by 100 rather then 1000 and thats where I got the 24K number.

[Master of Ossus]

Okay, then, it's about five times as fast as that ten pound spear.

[Darth Wong]

First, my comparison to the MBT is a good one, as if comparing it to an IFV.

No, it's like a SW Hummer.

Mike made the statement that an E-11 would trash any modern APC or IFV. Yet the E-11 can not do so to an AT-ST which has displayed less armor then an APC or IFV.

How so? Does a .50cal bullet hit harder than those tree logs? It's more focused, but that only affects penetration, not BUCKLING. You ARE aware that the two concepts are quite a bit different, are you not?

And where does this evidence regarding the spike?

It's in one of the novels. Unless you disregard the official literature, stormtrooper armour can handle a physical impactor which hits hard enough to pick up a man and throw him across the room.

FYI, a DU round travels at aproximately a mile per second. That is 3600 MPH.

Those rounds employ a combination of thermal and kinetic effects. SW vehicular armour is most likely designed to ward off thermal effects VERY effectively (see effect of Rebel artillery on AT-AT leg joints in TESB), perhaps with a thermally superconductive surface layer or active system. Much of the effectiveness of this type of shell would be lost against superconductive armour.

[Sea Skimmer]

1067 meters per second is about .666 miles per second.

.666 miles per second is about 3500 feet per second which is 12,600,000 feet per hour or about 2,386 miles per hour.

[Master of Ossus]

I just wanted to point out that I did not compare an AT-ST with an MBT. That was actually Alyeska.

[Sea Skimmer]

Those rounds employ a combination of thermal and kinetic effects. SW vehicular armour is most likely designed to ward off thermal effects VERY effectively (see effect of Rebel artillery on AT-AT leg joints in TESB), perhaps with a thermally superconductive surface layer or active system. Much of the effectiveness of this type of shell would be lost against superconductive armour.

The Thermal effect only aids penetration in allowing the DU penatraitor to self sharpen and to ignite ammunition and fuel within the target. The heating effect on the armor really doesn’t do anything to increase the penetration of the round.

Armor which sucks of the heat wont be signficantly more effective unless it can compleatly cool the round in a tiny fraction of a second.

[Tod zu den SD.net Idioten]

The round from an Avenger can penetrate over two feet of steel.

It would walk through the stromtrooper armor, through the stormtrooper, and through his armor again on the other side.

Unless you're going to claim that less than an inch of stormie armor > two feet of steel, which would be stupid.

(About rifles: A .50 cal BMG rifle can penetrate over an inch of steel, and the heavy 20mm anti-material rifles can penetrate several inches.)

I don't know what metal is used in the AT-ATs, but in the cutaway drawings IIRC it didn't look as thick as two feet. A good burst of GAU-8 rounds against an AT-AT might penetrate. It would certainly penetrate the neck easily.

[Master of Ossus]

Blasted people, assuming that SW technology is in all ways analogous to real world technology. SW technology is actually ridiculously good at mechanical engineering. SW materials are proportionately stronger when compared with the weapons they are up against than the same systems in RL, and the SW weapons are better, in the first place. This is clearly illustrated when the spear failed to do any damage to the stormtrooper armor.

[Mr Bean]

Unless you're going to claim that less than an inch of stormie armor > two feet of steel, which would be stupid.

Ahh but there happen to be several other matrials right NOW that 1 Inch >than a foot of steel

Most of happen to kill you through Radiation but there are Several elements which can do that

[Darth Wong]

Armor which sucks of the heat wont be signficantly more effective unless it can compleatly cool the round in a tiny fraction of a second.

See definition of thermal superconductivity.

[Darth Wong]

The round from an Avenger can penetrate over two feet of steel.

Note that modern-day composite armour is much stronger than homogeneous steel armour. Homogeneous steel is used only as a benchmark for comparison. In fact, steel itself ranges in the various strength, hardness, and toughness categories by very large factors (x5 or more), depending on the alloying, heat treatment history, etc.

I have never personally studied the methodology of testing they use to derive these figures, but to say that something can "penetrate two feet of steel" is, from a mechanical engineering standpoint, not particularly informative. You need a helluva lot more information to come to a useful conclusion.

Given thermally superconductive armour, the only threat from a kinetic impactor is going to be shear stress (barring such a large impactor or long wall that buckling becomes a serious possibility), and even that will be mitigated if the armour is harder than the impactor, since the impactor will mushroom against the surface and spread out its impact over a larger area.

[SWPIGWANG]

While we know stormie armor can stop a spear with lots of momentum.

Can the said spear penetrate two feet of steel?

And since the bullet is faster and carries different amounts of KE, would it have worst concuessive effects?


When talking about penetration, the 'steel' refered is RHA or rolled homogeneous steel unlike stated otherwise I think. I do not know the properties of the said steel but it is standarized. Tank protection and penetration is usually given in RHA thickness. When talking about aromr two values are sometimes given, one for HEAT and the other for KE bases penetrators.

And thermally superconductive armor!? How do you do that?

[Mr. Mister]

Yeah, how much does the impactor's size and shape have to do with the damage caused? I mean, that whole bit about Pressure=Force*Area, does that alter the way damage is caused? After all, if I smack an object with an axe as hard as I can, it leaves a different mark than if I smack the same object as hard as I can with a sledgehammer (although, is it correct to treat those as equal situations, with regards to the kinetic energy? The greater mass of the sledgehammer would increase its kinetic energy, but since it is more massive, that makes it harder for me to swing, and so I can't move it as fast, which should drop its kinetic energy. Are the two mass effects directly proportional, though?).

For some reason, that just got me wondering what sort of damage you could do launching a baseball with a trebuchet.

[Sea Skimmer]

Armor which sucks of the heat wont be signficantly more effective unless it can compleatly cool the round in a tiny fraction of a second.

See definition of thermal superconductivity.

Assuming it is super conductive, all that takes away is the ability of the DU to further sharpen its self as it penetrates, and the flesh behind wont be quite as burned. You still have a quite sharp mass of DU and steel hitting a small area at mach five that doesnt reley on being hot to penetrate significant amounts of armor.

[Sea Skimmer]

The round from an Avenger can penetrate over two feet of steel.

Note that modern-day composite armour is much stronger than homogeneous steel armour. Homogeneous steel is used only as a benchmark for comparison.

Not quite correct, some parts of today's Composite armor are stronger then RAH, but the majority is not.

Composite armor as it was originally introduced is actually much less effective then RHA plating at stopped kinetic penatraitor. That’s why early Cobham equipped tanks where so venerable to the Soviets new generation of APFSDS. The rounds would easily penetrate the Cobham, and shatter multiple blocks while passing through. This was made all the worse by the Cobham displacing what would have been RHA had the tank had all steel.

The result was that while many HEAT rounds where near worthless against things like the Chieftain mk5, APFSDS would punch clear through at most any range.

The initial solution was to include a layer of titanium rods, which would snap the penatraitor. However later tanks like the M1A1HA introduced DU plating.

[keb]

The round from an Avenger can penetrate over two feet of steel.

Two feet? 610mm? So a 30mm autocannon firing full-calibre AP rounds is going to out-penetrate 105mm APFSDS ammunition?

Try 69mm at 500 meters, or 38mm at 1,000 meters (both presumably at a 90 degree angle).

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/equip/gau-8.htm

[Master of Ossus]

The spear could not penetrate two feet of RHA steel, but the miniscule amount of damage it inflicted upon the armor indicates a spectacular strength for the armor (especially since its integrity was not compromised in any way). This indicates that the material used for stormtrooper armor is vastly superior to anything we have today. That does not mean that an Avenger cannon would not penetrate it, but it does mean that small arms fire would certainly not have a chance.

[Mr Bean]

Indeed its not quite a fair comparsion is it?

Would that spear penetrate two inchs of steel? Yes? What about Five? Maybe, So where does it stop? 6? 8? 10?

The main factor is that SW has a matrial which is something like Five times stronger than the armor used in todays TANKS

Of course then the question becomes well if E-11s can shoot through Stormy Armor and its equivlant to a few inchs to as much as a foot of steel, does that mean every man on the ground carrys an automatic anti-tank rifle?

[ClaysGhost]

The main factor is that SW has a matrial which is something like Five times stronger than the armor used in todays TANKS

I remember a scene from ROTJ where the Ewoks have got a bunch of stormtroopers on the ground and are beating them with what look like stone weapons. The shoulder guard belonging to one of the troopers shows what looked to me like a crack, but I haven't got an image of it. Does anyone else remember this, or do I have to book the therapist again?

[phongn]

The initial solution was to include a layer of titanium rods, which would snap the penatraitor. However later tanks like the M1A1HA introduced DU plating.

Any idea what the Germans or Brits did? I don't recall them using a DU mesh like on the M1A1 HA.

[Mr Bean]

The shoulder guard belonging to one of the troopers shows what looked to me like a crack, but I haven't got an image of it. Does anyone else remember this, or do I have to book the therapist again?

hmm, *Pops in Tape

Fast-foward, fast-foward
hmmm ahh here we go...
No don't see anything

[Darth Wong]

When talking about penetration, the 'steel' refered is RHA or rolled homogeneous steel unlike stated otherwise I think. I do not know the properties of the said steel but it is standarized

This tells us precisely dick. Is it cold-rolled? Or is it hot-rolled? Is it annealed afterwards? Or precipitation heat-treated? Or is martensitic? Is it AISI 1020? Or AISI 4340?

And thermally superconductive armor!? How do you do that?

The same way we enter hyperspace; by using SW technology